The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Arial]

You need to go back and study church history. They were. If you study church history, you will find out exactly why anti-semitism was so deeply engrained in the church, especially the Catholic church. Even Martin Luther hated the Jews, perhaps more than he hated the pope.

Irrelevant. That does not mean the doctrine itself contains that view or that everyone who who disagrees with the dispensationalist view hates Israel and Jews! You are talking to me, and it is me you accused of that.

You can find out how they views eschatology by what they asked Jesus.

And you can find out what is correct by what Jesus answered. And you refer to something that took place before the death, resurrection, and ascension. There was much they could not understand until those things took place. In the epistle we see the understanding. They speak of two ages. This age and the age to come. They do not mention an interim age, never speak of the Temple being rebuilt, never mention a thousand year reign of Christ in a temporal Jerusalem, populated by temporal people, who populate in a temporal way, as opposed to what Jesus said about the Kingdom. They would neither marry nor be given in marriage, there would be no more death, their would be no temple.

They asked what would be the signs of His coming. They weren't talking about the second coming, because they didn't know He was leaving. The word for coming in the greek has to do with a king/royalty coming into the city. They were asking when Jesus would come into His Kingdom. They still held to that, because in Acts, they asked Him, "Will you now return the kingdom to Israel?" They were still asking about the millennial kingdom that was so clear to the Jews in the Old Testament prophecies. Jesus did not say no. Jesus did not say that there was no kingdom. He said it wasn't for them to know when God had chosen for the kingdom to be returned to Israel. That is the Father's business. What the Jews had missed was Jesus FIRST coming. They didn't know of a second coming.

I don't have time to go over this line by line. But the disciples asked three questions, and one has to recognize by context what He says is in response to what question. They were not asking when Jesus would come into His kingdom. The were asking about when the destruction to the temple would occur, they were asking what would be the signs of His coming (and you utterly insert the idea that they did not know of His return so they had to be thinking as you are thinking. And just because they thought that the kingdom was Israel does not mean that it was.) And they were asking about the end of the age. So they knew more than you give them credit for. You insert the idea into the passage of a millennial kingdom. It just is not there. And Jesus did not say that that it was not for them to know when the kingdom was be returned to Israel. He said it was not for them to know the times or seasons that the Father had fixed by His authority. He had been talking to them for forty days. You make all your arguments from silence, inserting your presuppositions into the silence.

Why are you turning something given literally, and was understood literally in the early church, into a metaphor. (spiritualizing).

The ECF did not all see everything the same, so that is a loopy way in which to decide what you believe. The Bible itself if much more reliable because it is consistent with itself. Saying the 1000 years may be signifying something is not spiritualizing and it is not turning it into a methphor. It is actually attempting to find the literal meaning---that meaning that the passage is actually saying, given it is within apocalyptic prophecy that declares at the very outset that what was in it was signifying. It does so by comparing other uses of 1000 multiples of 10, 100 or a thousand, in other apocalyptic prophecy and literature within the Bible. And even after that is done, it checks the conclusion with the whole counsel of the Bible on the Covenant of Redemption (which is the subject of the Bible). And what is found within the NT Scriptures is Jesus and the Apostles only ever speaking of two ages. This age and the age to come. And Scripture tells us what this age to come is like in the Epistles and in the OT prophecy, and most vividly int Rev 21. It finds no case being made anywhere in the story of redemption, in which there is an intermediate age of a literal thousand years as pictured by dispensationalists. The apostles never teach of it. Never. Neither does Jesus.In addition, this age fits with the judgments that are depicted in Rev if you do not treat them as being chronologically separate judgments all taking place within a seven year period.

 

[Tambora]

There was much they could not understand until those things took place.

Right.
That's because they were seeking a 1 to 1 correlation to OT writings and things were not turning out that way.
Christ was fulfilling patterns/types of OT writings, not 1 to 1 correlations.
And those patterns/types were scattered throughout the OT and were even repeated scenarios throughout the OT (ie. different times, different places, different people) starting in the garden and continuing throughout history.

One such pattern/type was the exile of God's people.
Mankind (Adam & Eve) were exiled from the land of the garden.
Twelve tribes were exiled from the land of Israel.

Israel was a mini pattern/type of the larger pattern/type of mankind.
The Bible story is all about the restoration of mankind to live with God.

 

[Eleanor]

That is God's decree to Daniel, in response to Daniel's plea for himself, his people, and the city. Gabriel didn't flippantly throw out the word decree. The word is used because, as Daniel knows, a decree is immutable. Not even the person who put it out can change it or take it back. So no, it isn't my belief, it is how things are. If you read the six things that are the result of the decree, it says three things are ending, and three things will happen with those endings. The 70 weeks are to finish the transgression, to make an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, etc. So, if the 70 weeks are to finish the transgression, then when the 70 weeks end, the transgression is finished. Can't be more direct then that. If the 70 weeks are to make an end to sin, then at the end of the 70 weeks, sin is ended. If it is to make atonement for iniquity, then at the end of 70 weeks, atonement is made for iniquity. (That is, the atonement is fully applied.) If everlasting righteousness comes in at the end of 70 weeks, then at the end of 70 weeks, sin should be gone and everlasting righteousness comes in. It is all right there. And it is a decree, as Gabriel clearly states. A decree is NEVER ambiguous, and is always clear. If you don't see the results of the decree, then the decree is still in force.

I understand that is likewise your belief.

 

[Arial]

It is like Calvinism, which did not exist before Calvin. Obviously what he taught existed in various forms prior to Calvin, but he is the one who basically systematized it. Covenant theology did not exist until after the reformation

Calling it Calvinism is a misnomer if the first place. It became largely used as a slur. Calvin was covenantal. There are Dispensational Calvinist (MacArthur) but there are no dispensationalists in Reformed theology. According to definition. Reformed theology is Covenant Theology.

The Bible does not mention the covenants you speak of, it is someone's interpretation.

Oh it mentions them. Just because they are not formalized and labeled as a covenant does not mean they are not covenants. A covenant is a relationship between two parties that joins them together for whatever purpose. The party instituting this relationship, God in this case, sets the conditions if there are any and makes the promises. The very fact of Him creating our world is a covenant relationship between the Creator and the created. We see this in Gen 1 and 2. Everything was assigned a place and a purpose but it could not remain in its place or fulfill its purpose apart from God meeting every need and holding it together. He turns away for a millisecond and it all disappears into chaos or nothing.

He had a covenant with man the minute He created Him in His own image and likeness. It had stipulations for this relationship to continue in perfect harmony and peace. Man had His duties of caring for the creation and the relationship between man and woman which was meant to extend to all future order. And all was to be done reflecting His image and likeness. Good and holy. As long as they obeyed, they had access to the tree of life. If the disobeyed the one spoken command to not eat of a certain tree, they broke the covenant and were cast out. Every personal relationship, whether with individuals or a nation, was a covenant relationship.

It is the same for dispensationalism, except the Bible actually mentions dispensations.

Dispensations according to definition are in the Bible and outside the Bible too. Duh. That does not mean they are an interpretive tool. They are the historical events in redemption, but they are not the relationship that God is rebuilding in redemption. And redemption is about relationship. Never is that made more clear than in the last chapter of Revelation. "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God."

It is like Calvinism, which did not exist before Calvin. Obviously what he taught existed in various forms prior to Calvin, but he is the one who basically systematized it. Covenant theology did not exist until after the reformation. Martin Luther did not believe in it, because he had a different take on scripture. It is like dispensationalism. It is NOT solely futurist premillennialism as systematized by Darby. It also came into being around the 16th century, about three decades after Covenant theology. It is another way of viewing God's relationship with humanity. The Bible does not mention the covenants you speak of, it is someone's interpretation. It is the same for dispensationalism, except the Bible actually mentions dispensations. (Again, I speak to general dispensationalism.) Up to reformed times, there was generally two divisions understood in scripture. Works and grace.

Now I thought that the consummation was Jesus second coming and final judgement, as He said Himself. I guess I need to take that up with Him. The disciples asked three questions. When will this be, What will be the sign of your coming, and what will be the signs of the end of everything (consummation). The signs of His coming, that word for coming is for royalty coming in (the english doesn't really convey the meaning). He gave signs. However, when it came to the consummation, Jesus said He had no signs to give. Why? No one knows except the Father. As such, He wouldn't have any signs to give, or then He would know the time as well. So the second coming of Jesus in Revelation 19 is not the consummation. The coming judgement and final judgement, with the final defeat of death and hades, is the consummation. Revelation 21 is after the consummation. First verse simply states the original creation has already burnt up, and it is the New heavens, new Earth and New Jerusalem, which is the eternal age that follows the consummation.

Do you know what consummation means?

 

[Arial]

Right.
That's because they were seeking a 1 to 1 correlation to OT writings and things were not turning out that way.
Christ was fulfilling patterns/types of OT writings, not 1 to 1 correlations.
And those patterns/types were scattered throughout the OT and were even repeated scenarios throughout the OT (ie. different times, different places, different people) starting in the garden and continuing throughout history.

One such pattern/type was the exile of God's people.
Mankind (Adam & Eve) were exiled from the land of the garden.
Twelve tribes were exiled from the land of Israel.

Israel was a mini pattern/type of the larger pattern/type of mankind.
The Bible story is all about the restoration of mankind to live with God.

100%. Israel was also meant to be a light to the world. This is our God. He is the one true and living God. Out God is not deaf and dumb and powerless. He acts in our history, with power over everything. Our God speaks, Our God hears. Our God sees. And all men are to worship and obey Him. ANd this is how we are to be in all areas of our life. (And those ways are laid out as laws in the MOsaic covenant. Laws relating to their worship and attitude towards Him. And social and civic laws.

Instead of doing this they became insulated and proud and acted just like the pagans around them. In this they were meant as a type and shadow of what became the church. Israel in the story of redemption should primarily be defined as God's people. Christ is faithful Israel, true Israel, who brought the light of life to the world, and the church, believing Jew and Gentile alike, bear witness to that light to the ends of the earth.

 

[Mr GLee]

Why was the temple destroyed in 70 a.d., and the line of priest never to be able to be traced back to the tribe of Levi again? In fact none of the tribes can be traced back to the tribal origin. Some are missing in the 144,000 named in Rev, and Joseph and his son Manassah are mentioned but not Ephrahim. (I do not fully understand this, but nevertheless it is there.)

The Amil position, not literal but signified (parables) ) works the best. God does not number mankind or time restraints.

He desires we understand spiritual matters by walking by faith not by the eye the temporal


Jesus declared it desolate when he walked out of the abomination of desolation , . . Kings in Israel as pagan foundation

Is desolate not will be when a few stones fall .

Mathew 23: 38-39 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

No sign was given. Believers have prophecy till the end of time under the Sun

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world,(dying flesh and blood) and not after Christ.

Signs and wonders for those who believe not prophecy (no signs were given) We continue to walk by faith the eternal invisible things of God not seen

The144,000 unknow number, the golden measure (of faith) All the saints of old as well as new testament. One bride the church

 

[TMSO]

If you believe the 70th week (7 years) is the time of tribulation like there has never been before, then how do you conclude that the 70th week (7 years) must be completed when Matthew says this:

Matthew 24:21-22 NET
(21) For then there will be great suffering unlike anything that has happened from the beginning of the world until now, or ever will happen.
(22) And if those days had not been cut short, no one would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

I don't claim the 70th week is the time of tribulation, but the last 3 1/2 weeks are the Great Tribulation. The days are cut short by Jesus putting an end to the beast, his armies, and the armies of the kings of the earth. If Jesus didn't come at that time, the armies would wipe out everyone, and then Jesus would come and wipe out the armies, no one left on Earth.

 

[Tambora]

I don't claim the 70th week is the time of tribulation, but the last 3 1/2 weeks are the Great Tribulation. The days are cut short by Jesus putting an end to the beast, his armies, and the armies of the kings of the earth. If Jesus didn't come at that time, the armies would wipe out everyone, and then Jesus would come and wipe out the armies, no one left on Earth.

It doesn't matter if you think it was 7 or 3 1/2.
Either way, it is cut short, and could not equal the full amount Daniel spoke of.

 

[Tambora]

Israel was also meant to be a light to the world.

Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests also, and priests were not allotted land for inheritance.

 

[TMSO]

The next age is after the consummation, which is after the 1000 years of Revelation 20, and after the defeat of Satan, death and hades. With that comes the second resurrection, the final judgement and the destruction of the heavens and the Earth, with the New heavens and earth, and New Jerusalem being presented from the first verse of Revelation 21. [quotes shortened for length of comment.]

I don't have time to go over this line by line. But the disciples asked three questions, and one has to recognize by context what He says is in response to what question.

"3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [b]end of the age?”"
"4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the [c]Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.
9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. 10 At that time many will [d]fall away and will [e]betray one another and hate one another. 11 Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. 12 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. 14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole [g]world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come."
"15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 [h]Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 [i]Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no [j]life would have been saved; but for the sake of the [k]elect those days will be cut short."
----------
"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
----------------
"3952 (parousía) is "used in the east as a technical expression for the royal visit of a king, or emperor. The word means literally 'the being beside,' thus, 'the personal presence'."
The personal presence. When Jesus is present as the unveiled King, visiting His Kingdom.

"Cognate: 4930 syntéleia (from 4862 /sýn, "close together with" and 5055 /teléō, "complete, consummate") – culmination (completion), i.e. when the parts come together into a whole ("consummation") – "an end involving many parts" (B. F. Westcott). See 4931 (synteléō)."

The answer Christ gives immediately doesn't answer when Jerusalem will be destroyed. But is a long answer, with quite a few "but the end is not here yet". He is speaking to the end prior to His second coming. When does Jesus say the end comes? After this gospel of the kingdom is preached in the whole world as a testimony in all of the nations. He isn't speaking locally.

This is followed immediately by THEREFORE. What is that therefore there for? Knowing that the end is coming after the gospel is preached as a testimony in all of the nations (such as ours), here is what you are to know is coming. The Great Tribulation. You will recognize the final approach of the end with the abomination of desolation. Immediately after the Great Tribulation, Jesus will return physically to Earth, visible to all humanity.

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

Where do we read about people mourning? Zechariah 12, right? When they see and recognize Him whom they have pierced, right? It is during this time that Zechariah 12 is fulfilled.

To meet length restrictions, the third question speaks to what comes after the millennial kingdom. That is the defeat of Satan, death and hades, the second resurrection, and the final judgement before we enter the eternal age of the new heavens and new earth. The culmination of God's purpose for the creation. All the parts coming together at the end for culmination, ending with the destruction of this creation (heavens and earth) and the introduction of the new at the beginning of Revelation 21.

The ECF did not all see everything the same, so that is a loopy way in which to decide what you believe. The Bible itself if much more reliable because it is consistent with itself. Saying the 1000 years may be signifying something is not spiritualizing and it is not turning it into a methphor. It is actually attempting to find the literal meaning---that meaning that the passage is actually saying, given it is within apocalyptic prophecy that declares at the very outset that what was in it was signifying. It does so by comparing other uses of 1000 multiples of 10, 100 or a thousand, in other apocalyptic prophecy and literature within the Bible. And even after that is done, it checks the conclusion with the whole counsel of the Bible on the Covenant of Redemption (which is the subject of the Bible). And what is found within the NT Scriptures is Jesus and the Apostles only ever speaking of two ages. This age and the age to come. And Scripture tells us what this age to come is like in the Epistles and in the OT prophecy, and most vividly int Rev 21.

Revelation is chronological though. Just understand that the millennial kingdom is not another age, but in dispensationalism (not to be confused with dispensational premillennialism), the millennial kingdom is the seventh and final dispensation. This is before one even gets to putting it into an eschatological framework. This was mentioned a couple of centuries before Darby, perhaps even earlier. Darby did NOT come up with dispensationalism, just dispensational premillennialism, with rapture and all. And even then, the idea of the rapture had been floating around in the church for centuries. (Read about brother dolcino, 13th century.) And even that rapture belief was highly developed, and well thought out. It was a false teaching, but false teachers twist things that already exist to gather followers.

 

[TMSO]

I understand that is likewise your belief.

So, given God's decree, are the 70 weeks over. And if so, please point out the visibility of the conclusion that states that the transgression of Israel before God is finished, their sin (Israel/Jerusalem) has been ended, the atonement for Israel/Jerusalem has been applied, everlasting righteousness has come in, etc. If you believe the 70 weeks is over, please explain, since this was a decree, which means it is explicit in its terms, how the rebellion/transgression of Israel has been finished, so they are reconciled, how their sins of chasing after other gods and playing the harlot has been ended, how the atonement for their iniquity has been applied to all Israel, how all that is in Israel now is everlasting righteousness, etc. Again, Gabriel was very clear when he said this is what God has decreed. This is not a simple prophecy. This is not a mystery presented in riddles. This is a decree. A command gone forth from the throne of God before Daniel even finished his pleas. 70 weeks have been decreed for your people and for you holy city TO do these six things. Finish the transgression. Make an end to the sins. Make atonement for the iniquity/guilt. Bring in everlasting righteousness. Seal up prophecy and vision. Anoint the Most Holy [Place]. So, what should we see after the decreed 70 weeks has ended? The transgression finished. The sins ended. Atonement for the iniquity/guilt of Israel. Everlasting righteousness throughout Israel. Prophecy and vision sealed. (Why would they be sealed? There will be no more need for prophecy and visions. The anointing of the Most Holy [Place].

So please explain how we can have a completion of the 70 weeks where God's decree falls flat? Where what God says the end result will be is not the end result? Again, this is decreed. That speaks to determinism. God has set it in stone. This is what will happen. This is what the end result WILL be.

Explain this next to God giving the Israelites the choice to follow Him, and then God telling them the blessings they will receive. And then God tells Moses to write a song of all the curses that WILL fall upon the Israelites because the WILL reject God. He didn't say write this down so they hear what will happen if they were to reject. He said write this down and sing it to them so that they will know what WILL happen when they reject, and that they WILL reject. There is no doubt presented. It IS going to happen, and they ARE going to face all the curses. Why would this be any different?

 

[TMSO]

Do you know what consummation means?

Of course not:
"Cognate: 4930 syntéleia (from 4862 /sýn, "close together with" and 5055 /teléō, "complete, consummate") – culmination (completion), i.e. when the parts come together into a whole ("consummation") – "an end involving many parts" (B. F. Westcott). See 4931 (synteléō).

4930 /syntéleia ("culminating end, finish") is not strictly "termination" but rather "consummation" (completion) that ushers in a new time-era/age (Mt 13:39,40,49,24:3, 28:20)."

[I am being facetious, considering I have already stated what it means more then once, yet you are asking if I know what it means.] The disciples were asking for signs of the complete end. The final end. Nothing comes after. (That is, the age is officially over with nothing to come for the age.) The next age begins which is completely separate from the preceding age. That is, the age of this creation, prior to its destruction just prior to Revelation 21:1, with Revelation 21:1 and onwards bringing in the eternal age. The age of the New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem, the old having passed away. (Or as Peter says, all the elements melting in fervent heat. I think that God releases all of His power that was holding the universe together, and boom! One huge mushroom cloud, due to every atom, every element splitting at the same time. We are talking REALLY HOT.

You may say it is the consummation of redemption, but it is much more then that. It is the consummation of God's purpose for creation that results in the end of the age, and the beginning of the next. It is, as it says, not a termination. It is the consummation of God's plan for Satan, death, hades, Israel, Gentiles, etc. The plan for His creation, again, His purpose in creating. It encompasses ALL OF IT.

 

[TMSO]

It doesn't matter if you think it was 7 or 3 1/2.
Either way, it is cut short, and could not equal the full amount Daniel spoke of.

The 70th week is 7 years. It was decreed by God to be 70 weeks, and given the calculations for the first 69 weeks, each week is seven years. It does not change. It is a decree. However, the abominations do not come (abomination of desolation) until the middle of the week. Hence the Great Tribulation itself is the last 3 1/2 years. A proper full length of time for the Great Tribulation is never discussed. All we have is a quantitative measure which says that it will end before all life on Earth is wiped out. However, being that it is the last half of the week, which is 3 1/2 years, 3 1/2 years should be the rule of thumb. What the last 7 years of a whole is, is the presentation of the Antichrist. The seven years is all about the Antichrist. The first 3 1/2 years is the Antichrist clothed in peace, and spreading peace. (The beast (I believe) in Revelation that has a bow, but no arrows.) The abomination of desolation is where the Antichrist is unveiled, that is, Satan revealed through the Antichrist. The beast that comes up from the abyss. The last 3 1/2 years is God pouring out His wrath on the Antichrist and his dominion... Satan's domain/dominion. It ends with Jesus destroying them all at His second coming, before they can wipe out the remnant of the elect of Israel, and the rest of the elect still alive. If Jesus had delayed, there would be no flesh left on Earth, because the beast (antichrist) would have wiped out the elect, and then Jesus would show up and wipe out the beast and his armies, thus ending all life on Earth.

 

[Arial]

Israel was supposed to be a nation of priests also, and priests were not allotted land for inheritance.

And at His ascension Christ became Priest, King and Prophet, all three offices in one, and He is the only mediator between God and man. As His people, we are a kingdom (His kingdom) of priests, not in the way of an office, but as His representatives, sent to preach the gospel that He brought, and to live every aspect of our lives in obedience to our King as a witness to the world.

Sort of undoes the idea that He is not yet King, and that national/political Israel is the kingdom. His kingdom encompasses the whole earth, right now in the midst of the kingdom of darkness, as He gathers all the flock together. When that is done, when the last Gentile has been brought in, then God lifts the hardening of Israel, their judgment complete, and I believe there will be a great influx of Jews who believe, because their eyes and ears have been opened.

And then redemption is consummated, made complete, all things are made new, and God dwells among us.

Anyway---that is the way I see it.

 

[Arial]

The next age is after the consummation, which is after the 1000 years of Revelation 20, and after the defeat of Satan, death and hades. With that comes the second resurrection, the final judgement and the destruction of the heavens and the Earth, with the New heavens and earth, and New Jerusalem being presented from the first verse of Revelation 21. [quotes shortened for length of comment.]

That is only true if one believes the 1000 years is a literal thousand years. And of course, if that is true, and there is a temporal reigning of Jesus as King, a temporal Israel and temporal people. You have an "age" that the Bible never actually mentions but in a construct of a particular view. An interim age between this age and the next age, which has to be the consummation. Consummation of what? Redemption.

I don't know why many think the only way in which God can keep His promise of possession of the land and a king on David's throne is for it to be temporal first. It is said that the Bible says this, but does it? Since there is a whole other way of understanding it, one that never slows or stops, or pauses, or backtracks, redemption of mankind and the creation from from what Adam caused that had two options. God could wipe our everyone and His creation the second He closed the gate behind Adam and Eve. Or God could redeem a people for Himself by undoing that curse, and restore His creation for those He redeems.

It is all done in Christ. The literalized interpretation of not only Rev, but every prophecy, pertaining to Israel, and to Christ (and all of it does pertain to Christ the Redeemer) is what causes the problem. It is a case of simply not knowing how those prophecies are written and how to read and interpret them. They have a message that pertains to the historical situation that exists when they are given. And often (as in Dan 9) they also have a future (sometimes soon, sometimes far, far away, sometimes moving forward to speak directly of the coming of Christ, is mission and work.) Sometimes all of this in the very same prophecy. And sometimes they go even farther into the future of the time in which they were given, to speak of the end result of His work. What God is doing through it iow.

We don't find their meaning by counting. Those numbers may be literal as it applies to historical events that will occur----such as the exile to Babylon and the return to Israel But when it says end of transgression, that particular transgression was the end of God's judgment of the southern kingdom and a renewal of the covenant. And then it moves forward to the coming of Christ, the destruction of the Temple, and the end of that judgement, to the judgement on the whole world, to the consummation when and end to all transgression, not just in Israel, fulfilled in Christ's return and the consummation ---of what? Redemption and His kingdom come to earth where He dwells among us. Don't lose sight of the goal by inserting the necessity of a temporal and political return to the land by Israel and a manufactured literal thousand years arrived at by the very same inability or lack of knowledge, on how to read and interpret OT prophecy by doing the same thing with the book of Rev.

John tells us at the very beginning that what He is about to reveal is signified,(that is, literal events signified by metaphors, things that represent other things, figurative language,) and that it contains what was, what is, and what is to come.

 

[Arial]

The disciples were asking for signs of the complete end. The final end. Nothing comes after

Yes. Where does this next age come in that would have to be a next age if it was different from the age that began with Christ's arrival, the one that is way different than this age, as in your view you have a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, Jesus returned and finally a King, and Israel given back the land? Jesus and Paul speak of only two ages. This one, which has to be the one beginning in His lifetime, and the age to come. What would be the mark of the age to come? According to Scripture, that would be when He returns. What happens when He returns? The resurrection of the dead.

And in what form are the dead resurrected? 1 Cor 15:42-44 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown imperishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

50-52 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

You have Him returning with no resurrection of the dead, reigning in a temporal literal temple, when Scripture says He IS the Temple. Ruling in this temporal capacity over temporal people, in temporal bodies, call this restoration of temporal Israel to a temporal land the Kingdom of God, and for a total of 1000 literal years.

Does that still seem right to you?

You may say it is the consummation of redemption, but it is much more then that.

As I have said many times over, your ignored, so why are you now acting like I have never said it. I even gave you the scriptures. Christ came to undo what Adam did, not only to mankind, but to the entire creation, which was subjected to futility. We are told of this in Is 11:6-9, and Rev 21. That is a covenant promise as well.

 

[TMSO]

And at His ascension Christ became Priest, King and Prophet, all three offices in one, and He is the only mediator between God and man. As His people, we are a kingdom (His kingdom) of priests, not in the way of an office, but as His representatives, sent to preach the gospel that He brought, and to live every aspect of our lives in obedience to our King as a witness to the world.

Sort of undoes the idea that He is not yet King, and that national/political Israel is the kingdom. His kingdom encompasses the whole earth, right now in the midst of the kingdom of darkness, as He gathers all the flock together. When that is done, when the last Gentile has been brought in, then God lifts the hardening of Israel, their judgment complete, and I believe there will be a great influx of Jews who believe, because their eyes and ears have been opened.

And then redemption is consummated, made complete, all things are made new, and God dwells among us.

Anyway---that is the way I see it.

The explain the Psalmist prophecies. If His kingdom encompasses the Earth right now, then wouldn't that make His kingdom a kingdom of darkness? And again, the consumation is not simply about redemption. As the word means, it is MANY parts coming together as one in not a termination, but a completion.

I see that the 70th week isn't done yet. I already explained that the DECREED results of the 70 weeks are not seen at all in Israel, which means the 70th week has not ended. However, this is also a decree, which means if one week is 7 years, that means every week of the 70 weeks is 7 years. We see that the finishing of the trespass is on hold, the making an end of sin with the result of sin being ended is on hold, the full application of the atonement to the guilt of Israel is on hold, etc.

Once the last of that which is part of the fulness of the Gentiles (that speaks to a group, not individuals), then the 70th week commences, countdown to the Great Tribulation, and finally the consummation of God's purpose for creation that has many moving parts. The Gentiles are saved, the remnant of Israel gathered in at Jesus second coming, they are now both one group as the promises of God to Israel in the Old Testament are consummated, the promise of Lucifer's defeat is consummated, the promise of the defeat of death and hades is consummated, God's judgement is consummated, the destruction of this creation (heavens and earth) is consummated, Christ's kingdom and reign from the trhone of David as prophesied and promised is consummated, the return of the Kingdom to the Father is consummated, etc. There are A LOT of parts that come together and are completed at the consummation of the temporal age. (The 1000 years...that's temporal...) Once all of this is consummated, we enter the eternal age, the age to come. An age that will have no consummation, and will have no end.

If you don't understand why I say that Israel and the Gentiles are now one group, it is the remnant of Israel that wasn't saved that is now saved, or in Paul speech, they were grafted back in, while the Gentiles are already saved. So, up to this point Israel is the enemy of the church, of the Gentiles, for the sake of the gospel ONLY. For by their rejection the gospel went to the Gentiles. So by Israel becoming "enemies" of the gospel, the Gentiles found mercy and grace in the eyes of God and are saved. (Speaking of the group, not individuals. And not ALL Gentiles, but the elect of the Gentiles.) At Jesus second coming, Israel is saved, has the promise of the Messiah reigning from David's throne fulfilled, and become one with all believers, now that they too are believers. All of these parts, which make up the purpose of God's creation, find full consummation at the end of Revelation 20. The Jews find consummation of their transgression at Jesus second coming at the end of the Great Tribulation. (Jesus words in Matthew 24 that His coming is immediately after the Great Tribulation.)

My version is flashier...
Okay, enough of that. The main points for my point of view is the suffering of the Jews for their sin, which, in the end results in their salvation. They have a long hard road due to the stubborness of their hearts, but they too find overflowing mercy and grace from God.

 

[Arial]

"3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the [b]end of the age?”"

Etc.etc. In all of the rest of the post and the quoted scriptures, I see not so much as a hint of a thousand year reign in which Jesus sits on a temporal throne, in a temporal Jerusalem populated by temporal people in a restored geo/political temporal Israel. Not even in the quote from Zech 12.

A completely bogus construct is read into it from bogus presuppositions.

Revelation is chronological though. Just understand that the millennial kingdom is not another age, but in dispensationalism (not to be confused with dispensational premillennialism), the millennial kingdom is the seventh and final dispensation.

You cannot prove that Rev. is chronological.

The millennial kingdom as described in dispensationalism is a construct, created from a wooden literal interpretation of Rev and OT prophecy. The Bible does not actually mention a millennial kingdom, or a future dispensation in which Christ reigns in a restored geo/political Israel. And nowhere does the Bible make a sharp distinction between Israel and the church. Rather it makes them one. If an age is considered a dispensation, which of course it is--duh--again, Jesus and the apostles mention this age, and the age to come which is the consummation. According to dispensationalism itself, the millennial kingdom they put forth is an age or dispensation. A millennial kingdom as described, would not be this age, and if the age to come is the consummation, neither would it be the age to come. Plus, if restored temporal Israel is the Kingdom of God, then God has two kingdoms. One for the church at the consummation, and one for Israel in the millennium, that is not eternal, but temporal.

 

[TMSO]

That is only true if one believes the 1000 years is a literal thousand years. And of course, if that is true, and there is a temporal reigning of Jesus as King, a temporal Israel and temporal people. You have an "age" that the Bible never actually mentions but in a construct of a particular view. An interim age between this age and the next age, which has to be the consummation. Consummation of what? Redemption.

It is simply a temporal kingdom on Earth fulfilling the promise that the Messiah will rule over the world from Jerusalem. The end of this kingdom is part of the consummation. One of the many parts that consummate as one. It is not an interim age. It is the build up to the parts where Satan is finally defeated, death is defeated and hades, and we have the second resurrection and final judgement. All of that are parts that come together, along with the end of the millennial kingdom, at the consummation.

I don't know why many think the only way in which God can keep His promise of possession of the land and a king on David's throne is for it to be temporal first. It is said that the Bible says this, but does it? Since there is a whole other way of understanding it, one that never slows or stops, or pauses, or backtracks, redemption of mankind and the creation from from what Adam caused that had two options. God could wipe our everyone and His creation the second He closed the gate behind Adam and Eve. Or God could redeem a people for Himself by undoing that curse, and restore His creation for those He redeems.

Generally it is because that is what God promised. Since it is rulership over a temporal situation, this Kingdom of the Messiah will be temporal. It will end at the consummation, at the end of the age. It ends with the defeat of Satan, death, hades, etc. All parts that consummate as one.

It is all done in Christ. The literalized interpretation of not only Rev, but every prophecy, pertaining to Israel, and to Christ (and all of it does pertain to Christ the Redeemer) is what causes the problem. It is a case of simply not knowing how those prophecies are written and how to read and interpret them. They have a message that pertains to the historical situation that exists when they are given. And often (as in Dan 9) they also have a future (sometimes soon, sometimes far, far away, sometimes moving forward to speak directly of the coming of Christ, is mission and work.) Sometimes all of this in the very same prophecy. And sometimes they go even farther into the future of the time in which they were given, to speak of the end result of His work. What God is doing through it iow.

It doesn't cause any problems. In fact, it makes all the prophecies predictive. It makes what God said, what is going to happen. I do like how you offer yourself as the one who has the secret key to unlock and understand the hidden mysteries of God. (That is just how it sounds to me.) Paul said that people would find the things of the gospel and spirit to be foolishness. Why would God do that? Why would He do it that way? I take it as He said it. Gospel. (Not the gospel, I take it as gospel.)

We don't find their meaning by counting. Those numbers may be literal as it applies to historical events that will occur----such as the exile to Babylon and the return to Israel But when it says end of transgression, that particular transgression was the end of God's judgment of the southern kingdom and a renewal of the covenant.

Don't add or change what God said. It is a decree. A DECREE. And Daniel is writing it down, this is a decree, when his understanding of decree is something that is clear, concise, explicit, and cannot be cancelled, changed, repudiated... it is in stone. Not even the king of babylon could cancel, repudiate, or change a decree once signed. 70 weeks decreed to accomplish those six things. Are you telling me there is now everlasting righteousness in Israel? That requires sin to be gone. Oh wait, that is the second result of the completion of the 70 weeks. The end of sin. The 70 weeks is about making the end of sin, with the ending of sin realized when the 70 weeks end. The end of the transgression, which is Israel's rebellion against God is finished when the 70 weeks end. Atonement made (applied) for Israel when then 70 weeks end. The bringing in of everlasting righteousness when the 70 weeks end. And, it is DECREED for Israel. It cannot be changed to Gentiles, or to the church. It is decreed for Israel, and this is what WILL happen. Again, God did not tell Gabriel to say decree for nothing. Daniel understood EXACTLY what Gabriel was saying.

And then it moves forward to the coming of Christ, the destruction of the Temple, and the end of that judgement, to the judgement on the whole world, to the consummation when and end to all transgression, not just in Israel, fulfilled in Christ's return and the consummation ---of what? Redemption and His kingdom come to earth where He dwells among us. Don't lose sight of the goal by inserting the necessity of a temporal and political return to the land by Israel and a manufactured literal thousand years arrived at by the very same inability or lack of knowledge, on how to read and interpret OT prophecy by doing the same thing with the book of Rev.

Again, the 70 weeks speaks only to the end of THE transgression for Israel. It was a specific transgression that existed ONLY between Israel and God. Why? They were His chosen people, but they rebelled, they transgressed. That transgression, which is presented as something that stands between God and Israel, that is Israel's reconciliation with God, is finished at the end of the 70 weeks. That is what God has decreed. The sin that they commited through idolatry and playing the harlot, etc. will be ended at the end of the 70 weeks. The atonement made is applied to Israel at the end of the 70 weeks. The end of the 70 weeks is Jesus second coming, which Jesus Himself said is immediately after the Great Tribulation. How? His second coming is what ends the Great Tribulation. And once that is ended, He makes His presence known to all, and they mourn. (Sounds just like Zechariah 12.)

John tells us at the very beginning that what He is about to reveal is signified,(that is, literal events signified by metaphors, things that represent other things, figurative language,) and that it contains what was, what is, and what is to come.

Here is an interesting point on that:

"17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18 and the living One; and I [l]was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. 19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things. 20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."

What is he basically telling John? You know, I notice you haven't been writing anything down. Write down what you have seen [already seen], write down the things that are (such as the conversation he is having with Jesus right at that moment, and write the things which take place after these things. How does one make sense of this. The very last sentence. Right after telling John to write the things He has seen, He explains what John had seen, so John can write it down. What you saw was me with seven stars in my right hand, and the seven lampstands. Here is what those stand for. Write it down. How do I know that the discussion with Jesus and the writing of the seven letters are the things which are, and the last sentence with the "which you saw" is the things which he (John) had seen? Chapter 3 starts with: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.”" So everything after this point is what must take place after these things. And it is in chronological order. Every next thing He writes is something which takes place after these things.

 

[TMSO]

Etc.etc. In all of the rest of the post and the quoted scriptures, I see not so much as a hint of a thousand year reign in which Jesus sits on a temporal throne, in a temporal Jerusalem populated by temporal people in a restored geo/political temporal Israel. Not even in the quote from Zech 12.

Which is what happens when you isolate scripture from itself, something you say you do not do.

A completely bogus construct is read into it from bogus presuppositions.

Dictionary definitions are not bogus presuppositions.

You cannot prove that Rev. is chronological.

I don't have to. Jesus, who you can take it up with, was being chronological, as the disciples questions were chronological. Take it up with Him. Tell Him what you say He wasn't. Perhaps He'll let you know what He meant.

The millennial kingdom as described in dispensationalism is a construct, created from a wooden literal interpretation of Rev and OT prophecy. The Bible does not actually mention a millennial kingdom, or a future dispensation in which Christ reigns in a restored geo/political Israel. And nowhere does the Bible make a sharp distinction between Israel and the church.

Romans is pretty clear the distinction between Israel and the church. Peter and James were pretty clear the distinction between Israel and the church at the council in Acts. In fact, it was Peter himself who underscored the difference. Some consider Peters James guard dog. When James can't be contradictory, or set up against the council/church, since he is the church leader, Peter is more than happy to voice it for him. And then James just runs with it.

Rather it makes them one. If an age is considered a dispensation, which of course it is--duh--again, Jesus and the apostles mention this age, and the age to come which is the consummation. According to dispensationalism itself, the millennial kingdom they put forth is an age or dispensation. A millennial kingdom as described, would not be this age, and if the age to come is the consummation, neither would it be the age to come. Plus, if restored temporal Israel is the Kingdom of God, then God has two kingdoms. One for the church at the consummation, and one for Israel in the millennium, that is not eternal, but temporal.

So there were seven ages? I mean, there are seven dispensations. From what I read and what I learned in college about dispensationalism, a dispensation speaks to a different economy of God, that is, how God relates to man. What are the seven dispensations, which you are saying is an age. "Poiret divided history into seven dispensations: early childhood (ended in the Flood), childhood (ended in Moses's ministry), boyhood (ended in Malachi), youth (ended in Christ), manhood (most of the Church era), old age ("human decay", meaning the last hour of the Church), and the restoration of all things (the Millennium, including a literal earthly reign of Christ with Israel restored)" I'm pretty sure that it isn't an age, but "a system of order, government, or organization of a nation, community, etc., especially as existing at a particular time."

There is one Kingdom, but it exists in two forms. The Kingdom of the Father, and the Kingdom of the Son, which is returned to the Father at the consummation. The Kingdom of the Son, is the Kingdom of the Messiah King, on the seat of King David. His kingship derives from being of the line of David, through Mary. He could not be king through the line of Joseph, because one of Joseph's ancestors was cursed of God to never have a descendant sit on the throne. Everything God did is calculated. One of David's ancestors was cursed to not have a descendant in the assembly until the tenth generation. Wonders of wonders... David was the tenth generation. There are all kinds of things happening in the Bible that can only be God's determinate nature. Everything is covered when looking at it literally. Jesus is of the seed of David, and is also of the line of Melchizedek. By tradition, miracle of miracles, Sachem, the capital city of Melchizedek's kingdom is... in Jerusalem. A perfect intersection. A Messiah who is High Priest and King. Something a king of Israel/Judah could never be. Uzziah tried, and God struck him down with leprosy. Saul tried, and God took the Kingdom from him at that moment.

Jesus right to sit on the throne of King David came from Mary, not from Joseph. It is the way succession worked.

There is a lot of incredible things in the Bible that are missed when you isolate scripture. And you do that especially when you say, since you have to, that it is mentioned in Revelation and in the Old Testament, but Jesus didn't mention it. Isolating scripture. And why? It undermines your position. However, it only undermines your position if you cannot reconcile all the passages into a proper, literally understood, narrative. Each passage is a different point of view on the same thing. A different position. A different vantage point. An answer to a different question about the same situation.