The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Arial]

The FACT that you (and most everyone else) never understands from the (English) text is that the Jewish exile to Babylon was not 70 years. Neither does Jeremiah ever talk about a period of exile of 70 years. It just does not exist. It never happened. Until and unless that FACT is realized, the entire discussion and a proper understanding of the 70 Weeks of Years is just plain incorrect.

2 Chron 36:17-21; Ezra 1:1-4; Jer 25:1-14

 

[Arial]

Be careful lest you fall into the same trap as the Jews. Why did they miss Jesus' first coming? The Messiah would be a conquering hero, not a suffering servant. The idea of suffering servant never came to mind? Why? They spiritualized it away, and said that it is Israel, not the Messiah, that is the suffering servant. So all those prophecies were about Israel, not the Messiah. This completely changed Isaiah 56.

What makes you think anything I said could or did lead me to the conclusions you give above? What does it even have to do with what I posted? It is you who actually have fallen into that trap and do not even see that you have. You do this when you insist that ethnic Israel must possess the land with their conquering Messiah as king.

The Jews were doing exactly the opposite of spiritualizing. They were literalizing and dispensationalist (you may not call yourself one, but you are one, When I started out in Christianity I had never heard the term, but I was one.) I don't think you know what spiritualize means.

Notice how Jesus never said the disciples were wrong about the coming Kingdom in Jerusalem. All He did was correct the problems that came from not understanding the first coming of the Messiah and the purpose of the first coming of the Messiah.

Ethnic Israel is not the kingdom of God.

 

[Arial]

I AM NOT trying to say you are wrong. I am presenting another view that may slowly change your understanding of a different pov. You may also polish/put shape to, dull, ragged points that I have not dealt with.

I came out of that pov TMSO. I know it very well. I also understand how all we have discussed can easily be read into the Scripture, while at the same time reading it out of them. It is not an easy task. I certainly have not mastered it completely and probably not anywhere close to completely. My understanding of idealist amil is still pretty much an overview. Meaning it has a frame and part of the substance, but is not fully built. For example, I would not even attempt to parse all the symbolism of Rev----and it is packed with symbolism. But I see the book of Rev as not about predicting the future, as being a book of encouragement for the believer. Who, if they have not died when Christ returns, will live through continuing tribulations until He does. No one is being raptured out of a non-existent seven year trib period in which God redeems Jews. They are redeemed before He returns, just like all the rest of us. My theology is covenant because it is through covenant that God established a personal, historical, relationship with humanity, from day one. And it is through covenant we and creation are redeemed, and it is in the surety of God keeping His covenant, that we trust and hope.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

2 Chron 36:17-21; Ezra 1:1-4; Jer 25:1-14

Exactly! Have you really read the passages you state? Actually really read them very closely? No where does it state that the exile of the Jews was 70 years. Not a single solitary place.

l deal with this issue at great length in my book. And no, I will not copy and paste it here.
I also deal with this in my videos about the 70 Weeks prophecy. And yes, you can view it from the link in my profile.

 

[TMSO]

I'm going to be honest. I'm not sure where to begin on this travesty. (I have to be honest. This actually hurt to read. Right in the Spirit.) I hope this isn't how you interpret it. It isn't wise to throw away sections of what God has said.

@TMSO

How Does An Amillennialist Interpret Daniel 9?​

February 24, 2016 David Murray 6 comments
How does an amillennialist interpret Daniel 9:24-27?

Daniel 9:24-27 is apocalyptic literature that uses figurative language to predict the nature, timing and consequences of Christ’s work at His first coming.

Daniel 9:24-27

that uses figurative language…

The Bible uses “seven” as a figure of perfection, and “ten” as a figure of completion. Therefore, Daniel’s “seventy sevens” is a perfect and complete period of time. Just as forgiving seventy times seven is a figure for complete and perfect forgiveness, so Daniel’s “seventy sevens” is the “decreed” period in which the greatest work of God is brought to complete perfection.

Seventy sets of seven, which is not actually what we see in this paper. someone 7*7=50, and 62*7 = 440. (They don't). And the 70th week covers over 50 years...

to predict the nature…of Christ’s work at His first coming.

Daniel portrays this greatest work of God, Christ’s redemption, with three negatives and three positives (Daniel 9:24).

The negatives are:

• To finish the transgression: Sin will brought under control so that it no longer reigns to the same extent.
• To make an end of (lit. seal up) sins: Sin will be securely locked up.
• To make reconciliation for (lit. cover) iniquity: When sin is covered it is atoned for.

First of all, none of the above are negatives. The whole list is all positives. Consider he misdefined all three of these, there should be no surprise. You have to keep Daniel's prayer in view, his plea. Why? This decree is to provide an answer to his pleas about his people, and about his holy city. (Israel and Jerusalem). They are 70 years in captivity, and the 70 weeks to finish the transgression. Now, hearing it that way, and considering Daniel's prayer, what is the transgression?
"15 “And now, Lord, our God, You who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and made a name for Yourself, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have been wicked. 16 Lord, in accordance with all Your [k]righteous acts, let now Your anger and Your wrath turn away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; for because of our sins and the wrongdoings of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people have become an object of taunting to all those around us."
Sins and wrongdoings. Transgression. The transgression that is finished is Israel's rebellion against God. These sins are the sins that will be ended. The guilt of these sins will be atoned for. These are NOT NEGATIVES, these are positives.

The positives are:

• To bring in everlasting righteousness: God will being in a righteousness from without, eternal in origin and duration.
• To seal up (lit. authenticate) the vision and prophecy: God’s Word will be accredited and attested by these events.
• To anoint the Most Holy: God will qualify and enable His Son, the “Holy of Holies” for his central role and huge responsibilities in this great work of redemption.

With the transgression, sins, and guilt gone, what remains. Everlasting righteousness. Never ending. However, if you don't properly view the first view, how can you properly view the last. For sealing up, I take it this person never actually looked up the word in the original language.
"Definition: to seal, affix a seal, seal up"; How translated: "obstructs (1), seal (6), sealed (15), seals (2), sets a seal (1), shut (1)." Since prophecy deals with judgement, and there is no more need for judgement, then God isn't speaking anymore in prophecy. (Again, see Zechariah 13).

…to predict the timing…of Christ’s work at His first coming

Daniel divides the “seventy sevens” into three divisions (vv. 25-27):

7 sevens: A medium period of time (@ 460 to 410 BC) which began when Artarxerxes gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem. Daniel describes this as “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem.” This restoration and rebuilding occurred under Ezra and Nehemiah.

62 sevens: A much longer period of time (@ 410 BC to 30 AD) which began with Jerusalem rebuilt and restored, and finished with Christ’s first coming and, more specifically, with the beginning of His public ministry.

1 seven: A relatively short period of time (@ 30 AD) which began with Christ’s first coming (especially the beginning of His public ministry) and included His life, death and resurrection.

…and to predict the consequences of Christ’s work at His first coming.

After 7 + 62 sevens (69 sevens), or in the middle of the seventieth seven, “Messiah will be cut off” (v. 26), a phrase used both for death and for ratifying a covenant. This “cutting off” will be for the benefit of others, “not for himself,” and it will “confirm the covenant with many.”

In the middle of the seventieth seven, Messiah will cause the whole temple worship to cease, to be rendered unnecessary by His death and resurrection (v. 27).

The temple sacrifices did not actually cease until Jerusalem was desolated by Titus in 70 AD, but that was really just the outward manifestation of what had already happened in God’s eyes. In God’s eyes, Christ’s death rendered the sacrificial system unnecessary and over.

So, although the Jews continued to reject Christ’s sacrifice and offer animal sacrifices, God viewed this as “the overspreading of abominations” (v. 27) for which He would punish them with desolation. “The people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary: and the end thereof shall be with a flood” (Daniel 9:26).

Daniel 9:24-27 is apocalyptic literature that uses figurative language to predict the nature, timing and consequences of Christ’s work at His first coming.


The Daniel 9 prophecy is about the first advent of Christ, not the second.

The dates given do not fit the time frame. Whole sections have been left out of the propehcy given here:
"26 Then after the sixty-two weeks, the [ab]Messiah will be cut off and have [ac]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [ad]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [ae]there will be war; desolations are determined."
Gone. Just gone. Completely missing from the above. Why? It doesn't fit the narrative. It means there were 5 weeks between the 62nd (and 7) weeks and the 70th week. Why? The Messiah is cut off (presumably 33 AD), and then the people of him who is to come destroy the city and the sanctuary. That's 70 AD. And then we have the 70th week. However, there are other things going on then just the people of the one to come destroying the city. There are wars, desolations going on, and that are determined. In other words, everything, right down to the rejection of Jesus as Messiah was determined.

"but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of [af]abominations will come the one who [ag]makes desolate, until a complete destruction, one that is [ah]decreed, gushes forth on the one who [ai]makes desolate.”

That sounds completely different from what is said above. The worst here is "The temple sacrifices did not actually cease until Jerusalem was desolated by Titus in 70 AD, but that was really just the outward manifestation of what had already happened in God’s eyes. In God’s eyes, Christ’s death rendered the sacrificial system unnecessary and over." How can one be so flippant about the Word of God in front of God, with no fear? The point is it is Israel, who takes solace in all of this to include sacrifices. A covenant of peace made, and they can offer sacrifices again. Are they thinking about Jesus? About His sacrifice? no. They don't believe it was a sacrifice. They are just doing the meritorious work for salvation. And that will cease when the one who makes the covenant, breaks the covenant. The sacrifices will be taken away. Their greatest tribulation has just begun.
[I removed some, not because I didn't read, but to make space for my response.]

 

[TMSO]

I came out of that pov TMSO. I know it very well. I also understand how all we have discussed can easily be read into the Scripture, while at the same time reading it out of them. It is not an easy task. I certainly have not mastered it completely and probably not anywhere close to completely. My understanding of idealist amil is still pretty much an overview. Meaning it has a frame and part of the substance, but is not fully built. For example, I would not even attempt to parse all the symbolism of Rev----and it is packed with symbolism. But I see the book of Rev as not about predicting the future, as being a book of encouragement for the believer. Who, if they have not died when Christ returns, will live through continuing tribulations until He does. No one is being raptured out of a non-existent seven year trib period in which God redeems Jews. They are redeemed before He returns, just like all the rest of us. My theology is covenant because it is through covenant that God established a personal, historical, relationship with humanity, from day one. And it is through covenant we and creation are redeemed, and it is in the surety of God keeping His covenant, that we trust and hope.

OK then hear me out. We can't parse out Revelation, however we can watch, observe, and see with our eyes what is going on. I actually see the possibility of Revelation being carried out exactly as written. All a symbol is is replacing a person's name or identity with a symbol. It doesn't change the fact that it is still that person, it just changing the name to protect the innocent (the writer in this case, possibly). Or it is because these people didn't exist yet, so couldn't actually be named. To name them may make it noticeably future, and then you have a break down in the church. Just imagine what would happen if the servant of the master who went away, had the exact date and time of the master's return. Do you think he would have been caught after all the evil he did? Consider the weak Christians going through persecution, who hear, well, um, Jesus isn't returning for 2000 more years. What is that going to do to their faith? Not so much a living hope anymore.

I don't claim covenant or dispensational beliefs. They aren't actually choices as, well this is what you got. Covenant theology came AFTER the reformation, and dispensationalism actually followed within 3 decades. The difference is, I believe the group of the nation of Israel, known as the elect, will be redeemed when Jesus returns. Again Zechariah 12-13. It will be an epic rendition of Saul's trip to Damascus, where Jesus comes to Jerusalem, and all who are there see Him, recognize Him, and are broken. It breaks them, and there is a huge mourning. They know who He is. God has revealed it to them at the moment, as Jesus revealed to Saul who He is. And then God brings in springs of repentance, and fountains for the cleansing of sin, etc. It sounds like what Daniel 9 says about the result of the 70 weeks. Prophets will no longer prophesy? Why not. No more need of prophecy. These continue to be the population on Earth during the millennial kingdom, along with everyone else who was saved in the great tribulation and survived. Hence those who prophesy are put to death. They are still in their mortal bodies. The consummation has not yet occurred. Satan and death have not yet been defeated. That happens when the millennial kingdom comes to an end, Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, and so on and so forth.

I ascribe to a premillennialism that believes the kingdom is on Earth, and it is in Israel, for Israel, in fulfillment of promises made in the Old Testament. I am a futurist because I do not believe Jesus has visibly, bodily returned and brought an end to the sinful creation. We are still here. I do, however, see signs that the end MAY be drawing nigh, but it just gets a little of my attention. Consider the horn that takes the fatal wound. It can either mean they were killed/attempted to be killed, or an event occurred in their life that basically means they can't/won't hold the position, but then something happened, and they are back. I look at Trump, who so many believe took a fatal blow to his political aspirations, but even so, he appears as strong as ever. Then there is this covenant, and what is said about the covenant in Daniel. Well, we do have the Abraham accords, put together by Trump and others, which he was going to strengthen if he had won the election in 2020. He already had a list of countries considering joining. This is with Israel. It would, supposedly, bring peace. It could also bring a stipulation allowing Israel to rebuild their temple... Knowing Trump, if he could get it, he would try. He offered a huge chunk of Israel to one country to get them to sign. They couldn't believe he did that...

I don't subscribe to conspiracies to where I say this is it. All I say is, watch. See what happens. There is no problem with just watching, and being cautious and ready. If you see the temple being rebuilt, I would want to say that you would have to consider that the premillennialists (not necesarilly dispys), but those who see the prophecies as being made literally, even if couched in patterns and forms of speech, were right. I don't mention myself, because if it does happen, it makes me wrong. (It's complicated.)

 

[TMSO]

What makes you think anything I said could or did lead me to the conclusions you give above? What does it even have to do with what I posted? It is you who actually have fallen into that trap and do not even see that you have. You do this when you insist that ethnic Israel must possess the land with their conquering Messiah as king.

By spiritualizing prophecy, you may be missing the truth of Jesus second coming. As far as to me doing something, I may insist that ethnic Israel must possess the land, but that does nothing to the fact that right now they do possess the land, and that everyone said that would never happen, right up to the day it happened. Next, we might be surprised and find them rebuilding their temple. If they do that, then the sacrificial system starts again. They haven't been idle. Groups of those who are known to be of the lineage, have kept up the practice (not as actual sacrifices, but practice) for when they can start offering sacrifices again. All they need is the temple. And now they are saying that the temple can be rebuilt without having to move the dome of the rock.

The Jews were doing exactly the opposite of spiritualizing. They were literalizing and dispensationalist (you may not call yourself one, but you are one, When I started out in Christianity I had never heard the term, but I was one.) I don't think you know what spiritualize means.

The spiritualized. If they were literally interpreting scripture, then their Isaiah 53 would be the same as ours. It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Consider:
"However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was [c]pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our [d]well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To [e]fall on Him."

The He here is obviously Jesus. I mean, literally interpreted. What did they see. This is Israel. Not sure how they managed it, but that is how it went. I'm not sure how you could say that literally interpreted the He here must be Israel. Just not sure.

Ethnic Israel is not the kingdom of God.

No, the remnant of ethnic Israel, true to God, is the kingdom of God. It is over them whom Jesus stands as King. Their King. Their Savior.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

I came out of that pov TMSO. I know it very well. I also understand how all we have discussed can easily be read into the Scripture, while at the same time reading it out of them. It is not an easy task. I certainly have not mastered it completely and probably not anywhere close to completely. My understanding of idealist amil is still pretty much an overview. Meaning it has a frame and part of the substance, but is not fully built. For example, I would not even attempt to parse all the symbolism of Rev----and it is packed with symbolism. But I see the book of Rev as not about predicting the future, as being a book of encouragement for the believer. Who, if they have not died when Christ returns, will live through continuing tribulations until He does. No one is being raptured out of a non-existent seven year trib period in which God redeems Jews. They are redeemed before He returns, just like all the rest of us. My theology is covenant because it is through covenant that God established a personal, historical, relationship with humanity, from day one. And it is through covenant we and creation are redeemed, and it is in the surety of God keeping His covenant, that we trust and hope.

The concept of "covenant" is the secret to understanding all of prophecy and the plan of God. But again it's how "covenant" is understood.

 

[Arial]

The concept of "covenant" is the secret to understanding all of prophecy and the plan of God. But again it's how "covenant" is understood.

I am Reformed, which is covenant theology. I don't know if you have read all this thread or my exchanges with TMSO, but I have repeatedly said (and it has been ignored) that the Covenant of Redemption begins taking place historically (God acting within human history) in Gen 3 with the curse on the serpent, and the promise that a Seed of the woman would crush his head, and he would bruise His heel. The Bible is one continuous flow of the working out of this redemption according to God's plan and purpose. The entire Bible is one continuous story (to put it into the framework of a written book that is telling a story,and in the case of the Bible, revealing it.) The main character in the story from Gen 3 onward is Jesus. National Israel is a part of that story, but it is never takes the place of Christ as the object of the story.

Bible prophecy must be read in that light, and one must learn how to read prophecy. The OT Prophets were pronouncing both judgement and blessing, (not always but mostly). When the judgement pertained to Israel, it had a historic context, and sometimes a future context specific to Israel, and also a future context pertaining to the future coming of the Redeemer, and His work. What He would accomplish, that was not specific to Israel, but dealt with the end result of redemption. All within the same prophecy. Dan 9 is no different. In Dan 9, we find the tension of "right now" and "not yet." Christ has completed His work of conquering sin and death. There is nothing more to be done to conquer it. He died and rose again. The "not yet" is the consummation when the righteous dead are resurrected imperishable, and those who are alive when He arrives, made imperishable---glorified---just as our Savior was.

The ones receiving the prophecy would not be able to understand that future reference, (unless God revealed it to them) because they were in the middle of the story. We can understand (are able to) because we have the whole story. We have the story of the Redeemer entering history, we have the story of what He came to do and did (conquer sin and death) and the future promise of the consummation,Christ's return and the restoration of ALL things. Redemption is not just about mankind, it is about the entire creation.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

I am Reformed, which is covenant theology. I don't know if you have read all this thread or my exchanges with TMSO, but I have repeatedly said (and it has been ignored) that the Covenant of Redemption begins taking place historically (God acting within human history) in Gen 3 with the curse on the serpent, and the promise that a Seed of the woman would crush his head, and he would bruise His heel. The Bible is one continuous flow of the working out of this redemption according to God's plan and purpose. The entire Bible is one continuous story (to put it into the framework of a written book that is telling a story,and in the case of the Bible, revealing it.) The main character in the story from Gen 3 onward is Jesus. National Israel is a part of that story, but it is never takes the place of Christ as the object of the story.

Bible prophecy must be read in that light, and one must learn how to read prophecy. The OT Prophets were pronouncing both judgement and blessing, (not always but mostly). When the judgement pertained to Israel, it had a historic context, and sometimes a future context specific to Israel, and also a future context pertaining to the future coming of the Redeemer, and His work. What He would accomplish, that was not specific to Israel, but dealt with the end result of redemption. All within the same prophecy. Dan 9 is no different. In Dan 9, we find the tension of "right now" and "not yet." Christ has completed His work of conquering sin and death. There is nothing more to be done to conquer it. He died and rose again. The "not yet" is the consummation when the righteous dead are resurrected imperishable, and those who are alive when He arrives, made imperishable---glorified---just as our Savior was.

The ones receiving the prophecy would not be able to understand that future reference, (unless God revealed it to them) because they were in the middle of the story. We can understand (are able to) because we have the whole story. We have the story of the Redeemer entering history, we have the story of what He came to do and did (conquer sin and death) and the future promise of the consummation,Christ's return and the restoration of ALL things. Redemption is not just about mankind, it is about the entire creation.

I am sure you have not reviewed my material which contradicts your opinions in many ways. Without a proper understanding of what covenant actually is and with WHOM it is between, a proper biblical understanding is impossible. Neither is it possible to have a proper understanding of the purpose of prophecy.

 

[Arial]

By spiritualizing prophecy, you may be missing the truth of Jesus second coming.

I don't spiritualize prophecy. Give me an example of my doing that. And then I will show you that you do not know the difference between spiritualizing and spiritual application. I will show you that finding the interpretation of symbols, and that seeing in prophecies, where it does exist, that not everything that is being said refers only to that time and that place, from within the word of God and the information we have that they did not, is not spiritualizing, but rightly dividing the word of God. I will show you that it comes from knowing who the entire Bible is about---Christ---and what it is about---the Covenant of Redemption for the world. And I will show you that just because something is given its spirutal application, does not mean it is not also literal.

As far as to me doing something, I may insist that ethnic Israel must possess the land, but that does nothing to the fact that right now they do possess the land, and that everyone said that would never happen, right up to the day it happened. Next, we might be surprised and find them rebuilding their temple. If they do that, then the sacrificial system starts again. They haven't been idle. Groups of those who are known to be of the lineage, have kept up the practice (not as actual sacrifices, but practice) for when they can start offering sacrifices again. All they need is the temple. And now they are saying that the temple can be rebuilt without having to move the dome of the rock.

That would be an example of spiritualizing the Bible, as none of that is actually in the Bible.

The spiritualized. If they were literally interpreting scripture, then their Isaiah 53 would be the same as ours. It is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Consider:
"However, it was our sicknesses that He Himself bore,
And our pains that He carried;
Yet we ourselves assumed that He had been afflicted,
Struck down by God, and humiliated.
5 But He was [c]pierced for our offenses,
He was crushed for our wrongdoings;
The punishment for our [d]well-being was laid upon Him,
And by His wounds we are healed.
6 All of us, like sheep, have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the Lord has caused the wrongdoing of us all
To [e]fall on Him."

The He here is obviously Jesus. I mean, literally interpreted. What did they see. This is Israel. Not sure how they managed it, but that is how it went. I'm not sure how you could say that literally interpreted the He here must be Israel. Just not sure.

I don't even see where they are calling the He, Israel. The "He" to them was Messiah. Just as it is to the believing non-Jew. They did not recognize Jesus as that Messiah. That is not spiritualizing, it is being spiritually blind.

No, the remnant of ethnic Israel, true to God, is the kingdom of God. It is over them whom Jesus stands as King. Their King. Their Savior.

So who is your King and your Savior? Mine is that same One who rose from the grave and ascended back into heaven, where He was crowned King, having completed the work of Redemption.

 

[Arial]

I am sure you have not reviewed my material which contradicts your opinions in many ways. Without a proper understanding of what covenant actually is and with WHOM it is between, a proper biblical understanding is impossible. Neither is it possible to have a proper understanding of the purpose of prophecy.

I wonder why you would assume that if my view of covenant is different than yours, it is not a proper understanding? Especially since you don't even know what mine is, so the only evaluation or measurement you use is yourself. Why would I need to review YOUR materials in order to learn the truth of the matter, and why if yours contradict mine, that means mine are wrong?

I wonder if you realize the arrogance and self promotion , and how off putting that is, in all your posts? Even though you hate it in others. The only thing offered in this post is yourself. Do you have anything more to offer that is not about someone posting, and yourself as the superior?

 

[Arial]

OK then hear me out. We can't parse out Revelation, however we can watch, observe, and see with our eyes what is going on. I actually see the possibility of Revelation being carried out exactly as written. All a symbol is is replacing a person's name or identity with a symbol. It doesn't change the fact that it is still that person, it just changing the name to protect the innocent (the writer in this case, possibly). Or it is because these people didn't exist yet, so couldn't actually be named.

What on earth are you referring to here? As to not naming names of future people, I refer you back to God naming Cyrus many, many years before he was born.

To name them may make it noticeably future, and then you have a break down in the church. Just imagine what would happen if the servant of the master who went away, had the exact date and time of the master's return. Do you think he would have been caught after all the evil he did? Consider the weak Christians going through persecution, who hear, well, um, Jesus isn't returning for 2000 more years. What is that going to do to their faith? Not so much a living hope anymore.

I don't deal in speculations as a platform for my beliefs. A person does not need to read signs to know that Christ is returning in judgement and consummation of the promise. The Book tells us He is. And we don't need to know when. We know from the Book that He will return suddenly, like a thief in the night, implying unexpectedly, all watching and calculating of no avail. And every eye will see His return---hardly a secret arrival. What Jesus says is watch and be ready. He does not say there, watch for signs, but watch yourself---be ready. How do we be ready? By being in Him through faith---saved. How much more ready can we get? Other than being found living your life in way as is proper for a child of God.

As to what your scenario you present would do to someone's faith, read our Bible. Paul was dealing with a similar problem with the Thess church. And I want to point out to you, that throughout the time of the church, until this day, and until He returns, there have been times of localized persecutions of believers, great wars and catastrophes, etc. and the people living then, looking at signs, have always said, "This is It! Jesus is coming back any day now. The hope we have is in the promise given. Nothing can take us out of His hands. Nothing---not even our death. When we die we go to be with Him, and await the consummation, when our bodies will be resurrected as His was, and sin and death are dead, dead, dead, and all of creation made new and pure. And God dwells with us. The promise is our hope, and it is given to us in Scripture. How many years it will be before Christ returns is of no consequence whatsoever. That is one of the reason Revelation was written. To encourage the believer to stand firm and not lose hope, even in suffering.

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

I wonder why you would assume that if my view of covenant is different than yours, it is not a proper understanding? Especially since you don't even know what mine is, so the only evaluation or measurement you use is yourself. Why would I need to review YOUR materials in order to learn the truth of the matter, and why if yours contradict mine, that means mine are wrong?

I wonder if you realize the arrogance and self promotion , and how off putting that is, in all your posts? Even though you hate it in others. The only thing offered in this post is yourself. Do you have anything more to offer that is not about someone posting, and yourself as the superior?

Those that are interested in seeking the truth of a matter have an open mind. Demonstrate an open mind and then a useful dialogue can happen. Truth is offensive to those that think they know it all. You just don't know what you don't know. Once you understand the truth of this matter, it would all make sense.

 

[Arial]

Those that are interested in seeking the truth of a matter have an open mind. Demonstrate an open mind and then a useful dialogue can happen. Truth is offensive to those that think they know it all. You just don't know what you don't know. Once you understand the truth of this matter, it would all make sense.

 

[Arial]

The difference is, I believe the group of the nation of Israel, known as the elect, will be redeemed when Jesus returns. Again Zechariah 12-13. It will be an epic

rendition of Saul's trip to Damascus, where Jesus comes to Jerusalem, and all who are there see Him, recognize Him, and are broken

It does not matter what you claim or don't claim---that is dispensationalism. But I don't know why you think God cannot redeem the elect of Israel without a thousand year long period of time in which Ethnic Israel exists with Jesus as an earthly king and the church nowhere in sight. And why you think He cannot convert all the remnant of Israel unless there is first a rapture removing the church, followed by seven years of tribulation. That is not how He converted Paul or anyone else. Why do you think the last days is only seven years long and only deals with Jews?

I ascribe to a premillennialism that believes the kingdom is on Earth, and it is in Israel, for Israel, in fulfillment of promises made in the Old Testament.

Jesus said right now, the kingdom is with the believer. Why? Because we are in the King. At the end of Rev, at His second coming, we see the kingdom coming down from heaven to earth. Why do you think God can fulfill the promises made in the OT only one way---your way. What specific promise are you speaking of that cannot be fulfilled except through a religious/political earthly Israel?

Consider the horn that takes the fatal wound. It can either mean they were killed/attempted to be killed, or an event occurred in their life that basically means they can't/won't hold the position, but then something happened, and they are back. I look at Trump, who so many believe took a fatal blow to his political aspirations, but even so, he appears as strong as ever. Then there is this covenant, and what is said about the covenant in Daniel. Well, we do have the Abraham accords, put together by Trump and others, which he was going to strengthen if he had won the election in 2020. He already had a list of countries considering joining. This is with Israel. It would, supposedly, bring peace. It could also bring a stipulation allowing Israel to rebuild their temple... Knowing Trump, if he could get it, he would try. He offered a huge chunk of Israel to one country to get them to sign. They couldn't believe he did that...

Good grief. It is this sort of empty speculation, looking under rocks, trying to identify this symbol or that symbol that is most annoying and produces countless books, and words, and predictions----have been doing so since the first martyrs felt the flames, probably, or every time a war breaks out, or something happens in Israel---for centuries. None of which have come to pass. In addition, it is a complete red herring to the conversation. What is it one is really looking for in this? The escape hatch?

I don't subscribe to conspiracies to where I say this is it. All I say is, watch. See what happens. There is no problem with just watching, and being cautious and ready. If you see the temple being rebuilt, I would want to say that you would have to consider that the premillennialists (not necesarilly dispys), but those who see the prophecies as being made literally, even if couched in patterns and forms of speech, were right. I don't mention myself, because if it does happen, it makes me wrong. (It's complicated.)

When you say be cautious and ready, what does that look like? Have everything packed and ready and hope you can take it with you when you are raptured out of the thing you are to be watching for? If the prophecies were read as prophecies are to be understood; and if one did not insert nationalism into redemption but saw it as being about Christ, not Israel, then the temple being rebuilt would not even be a possibility. Or if it is attempted it would not mean Jesus is at mile ten. It would more likely be an indication that even more judgement would come on Israel because to rebuild the temple and begin animal sacrifices, would be an abomination upon abomination. He destroyed the last one after Christ's sacrifice and ascension, it was such an abomination. Plus, the first bull slaughtered in the courtyard would start a riot and lead to many arrests. Society, and I suspect not even Jewish society, will tolerate animal sacrifices in the modern age.

 

[Arial]

Those that are interested in seeking the truth of a matter have an open mind. Demonstrate an open mind and then a useful dialogue can happen. Truth is offensive to those that think they know it all. You just don't know what you don't know. Once you understand the truth of this matter, it would all make sense.

I actually did present my case in dialogue. Post # 209. This was you open minded, truth seeking response:

I am sure you have not reviewed my material which contradicts your opinions in many ways. Without a proper understanding of what covenant actually is and with WHOM it is between, a proper biblical understanding is impossible. Neither is it possible to have a proper understanding of the purpose of prophecy.

There is no dialogue there. Just you saying your are right and I am wrong, with nothing at all presented.

 

[Eleanor]

OK then hear me out. We can't parse out Revelation, however we can watch, observe, and see with our eyes what is going on. I actually see the possibility of Revelation being carried out exactly as written. All a symbol is is replacing a person's name or identity with a symbol. It doesn't change the fact that it is still that person, it just changing the name to protect the innocent (the writer in this case, possibly). Or it is because these people didn't exist yet, so couldn't actually be named. To name them may make it noticeably future, and then you have a break down in the church. Just imagine what would happen if the servant of the master who went away, had the exact date and time of the master's return. Do you think he would have been caught after all the evil he did? Consider the weak Christians going through persecution, who hear, well, um, Jesus isn't returning for 2000 more years. What is that going to do to their faith? Not so much a living hope anymore.
I don't claim covenant or dispensational beliefs. They aren't actually choices as, well this is what you got. Covenant theology came AFTER the reformation, and dispensationalism actually followed within 3 decades. The difference is, I believe the group of the nation of Israel, known as the elect, will be redeemed when Jesus returns. Again Zechariah 12-13. It will be an epic rendition of Saul's trip to Damascus, where Jesus comes to Jerusalem, and all who are there see Him, recognize Him, and are broken. It breaks them, and there is a huge mourning. They know who He is. God has revealed it to them at the moment, as Jesus revealed to Saul who He is. And then God brings in springs of repentance, and fountains for the cleansing of sin, etc. It sounds like what Daniel 9 says about the result of the 70 weeks.

Prophets will no longer prophesy? Why not. No more need of prophecy. These continue to be the population on Earth during the millennial kingdom, along with everyone else who was saved in the great tribulation and survived. Hence those who prophesy are put to death. They are still in their mortal bodies. The consummation has not yet occurred. Satan and death have not yet been defeated. That happens when the millennial kingdom comes to an end, Jesus returns the kingdom to the Father, and so on and so forth.
I ascribe to a premillennialism that believes the kingdom is on Earth, and it is in Israel, for Israel, in fulfillment of promises made in the Old Testament.

All the promises to Israel have been fufilled:
1) possession of the land (Josh 23;14, 21:43)
2) occupation of the land (1 Kgs 4:1, 24-25)
3) everlasting possession (Heb 11:10-16)
4) return to the land (under Ezra, Nehemiah), where they rebuilt the wall, the temple and rededicated themselves to God with great rejoicing that could be heard from afar

The only remaining promise to, as well as destiny of, Israel is their grafting back into the one olive tree of God's people, IF they do not persist in unbelief (Heb 11:23).

 

[eclipseEventSigns]

Just so typical. Mock away. Your loss. That's why no one takes you seriously.

 

[Arial]

I'm going to be honest. I'm not sure where to begin on this travesty. (I have to be honest. This actually hurt to read. Right in the Spirit.) I hope this isn't how you interpret it. It isn't wise to throw away sections of what God has said.

A travesty? Hurt to read in the Spirit? Maybe you weren't reading it in the Spirit. And it does not throw away sections of what God said. When will people recognize that when they say things like that, they are really saying that they are only able to look at opposing opinions, through the one lens they have. So of course it looks like a travesty and hurts to read. It shows, no honest interest in investigating whether or not it is legitimate. They have already decided it isn't.

As a result, they are unable to really understand what the other person is saying. That is evident when it is repeated back, all wrong. There is no honest interest in listening and learning. As though if they learned it would be the same thing as agreeing and that there would be no more room for such wild accusations and assessments as given in your post. It is disingenuous, especially on a forum, and always leads to dead ends of hurt feelings. bickering, arguing. So I won't go on much longer. The fact that you could not properly understand what you read in someone else's writing, demonstrates that you have paid no more close and honest attention to anything I have said either. And won't.

Seventy sets of seven, which is not actually what we see in this paper. someone 7*7=50, and 62*7 = 440. (They don't). And the 70th week covers over 50 years...

7 sevens: A medium period of time (@ 460 to 410 BC) which began when Artarxerxes gave the command to rebuild Jerusalem. Daniel describes this as “the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem.” This restoration and rebuilding occurred under Ezra and Nehemiah.

62 sevens: A much longer period of time (@ 410 BC to 30 AD) which began with Jerusalem rebuilt and restored, and finished with Christ’s first coming and, more specifically, with the beginning of His public ministry.

1 seven: A relatively short period of time (@ 30 AD) which began with Christ’s first coming (especially the beginning of His public ministry) and included His life, death and resurrection.

…and to predict the consequences of Christ’s work at His first coming.

After 7 + 62 sevens (69 sevens), or in the middle of the seventieth seven, “Messiah will be cut off” (v. 26), a phrase used both for death and for ratifying a covenant. This “cutting off” will be for the benefit of others, “not for himself,” and it will “confirm the covenant with many.”

The covenant of grace, as revealed through the covenants with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and David, and as further prophesied by Jeremiah, will be fulfilled by the Messiah.

In the middle of the seventieth seven, Messiah will cause the whole temple worship to cease, to be rendered unnecessary by His death and resurrection (v. 27).

Try reading it again.

First of all, none of the above are negatives.

Yes, they are. Try again.

You have to keep Daniel's prayer in view, his plea. Why? This decree is to provide an answer to his pleas about his people, and about his holy city. (Israel and Jerusalem). They are 70 years in captivity, and the 70 weeks to finish the transgression. Now, hearing it that way, and considering Daniel's prayer, what is the transgression?

Yes you do have to keep his prayer in view, and you are not doing so. The transgression was the thing that got them exiled. And that was a prolonged combination of transgressions. But as this prophecy moves forward through time it looks to the first coming of the Redeemer when that end of transgression is dealt with on a permanent basis. That is what is taking place in the entirety of the prophecy, The coming of Christ, and what He accomplishes in His life, death, resurrection, ascension. Jesus did that work. No other work needs to be done to accomplish what we see in His first advent. What goes beyond that is not more work being done, but the consummation to arriver---His second coming. Please try to hear that this time.

You have inserted something into that prophecy that simply is not there. A seven year tribulation dealing with Israel, followed by a thousand year national Israel with Christ as the sitting King. God has always been Israel's king, and not only Israel, but EVERYONE. The fact that we are all rebellious subjects, with the axe of judgment hanging over our heads, but for grace and the person and work of Jesus, does not mean that God is not King of kings and Lord of lords.