The external and internal call.

[Carbon]

I have yet to witness that in this thread. What the posts actual show is two verses removed from their surrounding text and their respective contexts and then put together to "interpret" one another. That has actually happened in the the thread and that fact is objectively verifiable by any reader (al or not), not a matter of my personal opinion.

How about we keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?

I hope we can

How about we keep the posts about the posts and not the posters?

I hope we can

 

[Arial]

Plants that do not grow to maturity do not produce any crop.

People aren't actually plants. Jesus used the analogy of seed and soil. The writer of Hebrews was not doing that, and all I said is that what was being said in Heb 6:4-6 would be the same thing as Jesus presented in His analogy. The writer of Hebrews was telling them to grow up or continue to grow in their knowledge and understanding and live accordingly. No one is born, naturally or spiritually, mature. It requires growing---not in the ground, people aren't plants, but in knowledge and understanding---going beyond the elementary milk. You have to remember to that the first Christians were plagued by persecution and false teaching, often Judaizers, and could get very discouraged, confused, and complacent.

The theme of productivity runs through the entirety of scripture. Jesus is the first fruit. Atonement, being much greater than merely a payment for sin, addresses the damage and loss incurred by sin, in addition to paying that debt.

As I have said.

 

[Carbon]

I have already answered those questions and asked you to make the case for the position the Hebrews 6:4 people were not saved. It is, after all, your op. My posts could be incorrect but that would not make the op correct.

Actually, you did not answer my questions about enlightened or tasted the heavenly gift.

So this is where we stall. Please answer what enlightened means in Hebrews 6:4 and tasted the heavenly gift in Hebrews 4.
If you don't know, just say so.

 

[Carbon]

Yes. They were written by a saved person to saved people and the entire letter was written to the saved people.

I just want to emphasize a point. Scripture is written to the believer, as in the writing of scripture there is correction and all sorts of teachings.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 the author is writing to believers. He is teaching, and a key verse for this is verse 9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things regarding you, and things that accompany salvation, even though we are speaking in this way.

Something to consider.

 

[Arial]

If those in Hebrews 6 who fell away were saved and their falling away means the lost the salvation, they actually really possessed then that makes perseverance incorrect, and for those that think losing any on letter in the acronym proves fatal to the whole, that means the entire TULIP fails. Alternatively, if they were really, truly, factually, actually saved (just trying to emphasize the point and cover the bases ) and perseverance is correct then the falling away is about something else, some other kind of falling away. If they were not saved EVER then from what they fell away should be identified because if they were not saved, then they were not falling away from salvation. They weren't falling away from a salvation they never possessed to begin with. Maybe they were falling away from potential salvation, or the prospect of salvation.... but, monergistically speaking, if they are among the elect ordained from eternity then their salvation is inevitable and if they weren't among the elct then not only will they never be saved but we're back to defining what it is they were falling away from.

The passage never says they fell away from salvation. That is the thing that is automatically read into it, and becomes nearly impossible to shake.

The first time I read that passage after I was saved and was still only a few months old spiritually speaking, knowing nothing of TULIP or perseverance of the saints, but had only the baby conviction that if Jesus bought me with His blood, I am bought, and I cannot be unbought, I too thought it sounded like one could lose their salvation. What I said to myself was, "I do not know what it means, but it cannot mean salvation can be lost because Jesus purchased me with His blood and that cannot be undone." I was not ready to tackle the scripture yet and was not until I came into Reformed theology.

What they fell away from was their professed belief (a great danger of this deciding to believe theory). What they fell away from was association with those things and gatherings and people that they had been associated with and experienced. And it is not as simple as walking away from a particular church or having once attended regularly and no longer do--that can be done even with genuine faith. The scriptures say they treat His blood, His sacrifice, with contempt, after having once been involved in the faith. They weren't saved and if they do that they never will be. They won't repent.

 

[Carbon]

The passage never says they fell away from salvation. That is the thing that is automatically read into it, and becomes nearly impossible to shake.

The first time I read that passage after I was saved and was still only a few months old spiritually speaking, knowing nothing of TULIP or perseverance of the saints, but had only the baby conviction that if Jesus bought me with His blood, I am bought, and I cannot be unbought, I too thought it sounded like one could lose their salvation. What I said to myself was, "I do not know what it means, but it cannot mean salvation can be lost because Jesus purchased me with His blood and that cannot be undone." I was not ready to tackle the scripture yet and was not until I came into Reformed theology.

What they fell away from was their professed belief (a great danger of this deciding to believe theory). What they fell away from was association with those things and gatherings and people that they had been associated with and experienced. And it is not as simple as walking away from a particular church or having once attended regularly and no longer do--that can be done even with genuine faith. The scriptures say they treat His blood, His sacrifice, with contempt, after having once been involved in the faith. They weren't saved and if they do that they never will be. They won't repent.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

I just want to emphasize a point. Scripture is written to the believer, as in the writing of scripture there is correction and all sorts of teachings.

In Hebrews 6:4-6 the author is writing to believers. He is teaching, and a key verse for this is verse 9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things regarding you, and things that accompany salvation, even though we are speaking in this way.

Something to consider.

@Eleanor
What’s your thought on these things?

 

[Josheb]

We will get there.

Can't wait.

What is enlightened according to your belief?

The Greek word, "photizo," means illuminate, bring to light, make evident, or reveal. Whatever it was they had been "once enlightened" something had been brought to light to them, revealed to them. It's the same word the author of Hebrews used when he wrote,

Hebrews 10:31-33
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.

and the same word Paul used when he wrote,

Ephesians 1:15-21
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Both passages are about saved people. I cannot find an example of enlightenment in the epistles applied to the unsaved.

Other conjugations of photizo occur in the epistolary at 1 Cor. 4:5, and Eph. 3:9, both of which are also addressed to and about already saved people. In his second letter to Timothy Paul uses the term to say the gospel and the saints' calling has been revealed (enlightened) be the appearance of Christ. The word is also used three times in the prophecy of Revelation (where the earth is illumined by the glory of Christ, Christ illuminates the new Jerusalem).

Using scripture to renderer scripture, first using the Hebrews author's own use and comparing to others' usage in the epistolary, I conclude the Hebrew 6:4 people were also saved. Examining the epistolary for exceptions to that conclusion I find none. Whatever the enlightenment may or may not have been the term is one applied only to saints in the epistolary.

I believe the enlightenment of Hebrews 6 is having the gospel salvifically revealed.

What is tasted the heavenly gift according to your belief?

Same thing. It's a gift that came from God. Salvation is by grace through faith, not of ourselves; it is a gift of God.

The author of Hebrews used the word "gift" seven times in his epistle. The firstis found in Hebrews 2:4 where the gift is stated to be the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 5:1, 8:1-13, and 9:9 are OT references to the offerings (gifts) and sacrifices according to the Law that foreshadowed Christ. The last use says,

Hebrews 11:4
By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

Gifts come from God by faith. Paul uses the word about three dozen times in his epistles for diverse things such as justification (Rom. 3:24), eternal life (Rom. 6:23), the spiritual gifts of 1 Cor. 12, salvation and faith (Eph. 2:5-10), and Romans 11:29 says the gifts referenced in that passage (deliverance and mercy) are irrevocable. Not once is the word "gift" applied to the unregenerate non-believer who has never been saved.

You make these statements, now define what you're trying to prove.

Done.


Your turn

 

[Josheb]

That's incorrect. Perhaps you're speaking for yourself?

Should I have any expectation the posts will be kept about the posts and not the posters, or not?


Of course I speak for myself. If Calvinism teaches there is a third group of people beside the saved and the unsaved then I am open to that evidence. Just post it and let it speak for itself.



2

 

[Josheb]

The passage never says they fell away from salvation.

Correct.

That is the thing that is automatically read into it,

Not by me.

and becomes nearly impossible to shake.

Not by me.

The fact remains the text does not actually state they fell away from their salvation or lost it. All of the attributes in the surrounding text apply to saved people. If they were saved then the falling away cannot be the loss of salvation, but it could be the loss of maturity and/or productivity in Christ. If they were not saved at all, ever, then none of the attributes in the surrounding text apply and we're left with Paul talking about people with various attributes of salvation and then in the middle of it he makes a single comment about unsaved people in a letter to and about the saints. The fact remains the people bout whom the author is writing had once been enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift and made partakers of the Holy Spirit.

The first time I read that passage after I was saved and was still only a few months old spiritually speaking, knowing nothing of TULIP or perseverance of the saints, but had only the baby conviction that if Jesus bought me with His blood, I am bought, and I cannot be unbought, I too thought it sounded like one could lose their salvation. What I said to myself was, "I do not know what it means, but it cannot mean salvation can be lost because Jesus purchased me with His blood and that cannot be undone." I was not ready to tackle the scripture yet and was not until I came into Reformed theology.

Or it could mean they were saved and not matured and become productive in Christ. To read the passage to be about unsaved people it must be explained how they partook of the word, knew (and lived) the elementary teachings, possessed a foundation of repentance, had faith in God, were made partakers in the Holy Spirit and tasted the gifts of God and yet were not saved.

The text does not state from what they fell. To know what it was from which they fell, the passage must be exegeted working from the verse in question outwardly through the surrounding text and then to passages elsewhere in the epistolary that use the same terms beginning with those used in similar context. When that is done the attributes list in Hebrews are all those of the saved.

What they fell away from was their professed belief (a great danger of this deciding to believe theory).

Their professed faith and their salvation are not synonymous.

What they fell away from was association with those things and gatherings and people that they had been associated with and experienced. And it is not as simple as walking away from a particular church or having once attended regularly and no longer do--that can be done even with genuine faith. The scriptures say they treat His blood, His sacrifice, with contempt, after having once been involved in the faith. They weren't saved and if they do that they never will be. They won't repent.

Walking away from association............................... is not synonymous with losing one's salvation. It might mean they were never saved in the first place, or it could mean they were not bearing fruit consistent with the gospel, life in Christ, and the indwelling Spirit.

The first time I read that passage....

I'm sure we could all recount ways in which we understood and misunderstood scripture, but anecdotal reports do not prove anything one way or another. Despite our collective years in Christ and prowess with scripture we could all still be wrong.

 

[Josheb]

Check Post 30, @Carbon. Looks like the html tags got mixed up or lost.

 

[David1701]

I believe, concerning this calling there is a distinction between an external and an inward call.
They both come from God, by means of the gospel, they pertain to the same matters and are presented equally to all.
They both are addressed to humans who by nature are the same. However, I believe they both are distinguishable.

The external call functions only by means of the word and the Spirit does join Himself in common Illumination and historical faith. Consider, Hebrews 6:4, For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,...........

The internal calling however, penetrates the very heart of man, powerfully illuminating it with wonderous light revealing mysteries to the man. And powerfully inclines the will to embrace those mysteries in Christ, and to the obedience of faith.
Consider: It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45.

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, Eph 1:18


Thoughts, comments?

There are definitely inward and outward calls. The simplest Scripture about this is in 1 Cor..

1 Cor. 1:22-24 (Webster)
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumblingblock, and to the Greeks foolishness;
24 But to them who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

The outward, or general, call is in verse 23 - it's the preaching of the gospel.

The inward, or effectual, call is in verse 24 - it's the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit, effectually applying the gospel to the hearts of God's elect.

 

[Eleanor]

@Eleanor
What’s your thought on these things?

Hebrews is about backsliding into Judaism as Judges is about backsliding into idolatry.
It is addressing what appears to be new Jewish Christians who were considering a return to Judaism, for whatever reason.

Heb 6:4-6 is one of five warnings in Hebrews regarding the consequences of lapsing from Christianity; i.e., apostasy.
To do so is to be unable to return again. For having once tasted gospel Christianity and rejecting it, one will not like its taste any better the second time.
But the writer is careful not to accuse them of such, only to warn them of such.

 

[Carbon]

Can't wait.

The Greek word, "photizo," means illuminate, bring to light, make evident, or reveal. Whatever it was they had been "once enlightened" something had been brought to light to them, revealed to them. It's the same word the author of Hebrews used when he wrote,

Hebrews 10:31-33
It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. But remember the former days, when, after being enlightened, you endured a great conflict of sufferings, partly by being made a public spectacle through reproaches and tribulations, and partly by becoming sharers with those who were so treated.

and the same word Paul used when he wrote,

Ephesians 1:15-21
For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

Both passages are about saved people. I cannot find an example of enlightenment in the epistles applied to the unsaved.

In Ephesians, its obvious Paul is writing to believers, because he says so. Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
But, do you think for one minute Paul believed everyone attending the Christian church in Ephesus was a believer? Excuse my stupid question, of course, you don't. In the epistle, he prays for them. Why would Paul pray for the believers, that their hearts may be enlightened? Haven't the believer's hearts already been enlightened? The gospel call gathers men together, those who do not have faith, though enlightened, since they have no faith it does not benefit them.
For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. Heb 4:2.

Many are called, but few are chosen

When men hear the gospel, they are enlightened, and the elect, God moves and stirs the others fall away as those in Hebrews 6. Jesus said......
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44.

I believe the enlightenment of Hebrews 6 is having the gospel salvifically revealed.

As I thought you did.

Also, the enlightening of the mind is not efficient enough to produce faith because it does not take away the corruption of the will. You see, man is called enlightened, and then drawn by God. The conversion of the will is the effectual conversion of the whole man,
for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.
The will is the prime subject of grace.

Done.

Oh, I doubt that.

Your turn

My turn? Do you not agree with anything I said?

 

[Josheb]

While the impasse pertaining to Hebrews 6:4 awaits resolution I'll address some of the op's other content.

I believe, concerning this calling there is a distinction between an external and an inward call.

Yep. I completely agree.

They both come from God, by means of the gospel, they pertain to the same matters and are presented equally to all.

Yes, sorta. The inward and external call need not be solely by means of the gospel. The Holy Spirit calls people to the gospel for the gospel. In other words, the Holy Spirit is just as much an agent of the gospel as the Law or the Son, or creation itself (at least to the degree Romans 1:19-20 communicates anything about the gospel).

They both are addressed to humans who by nature are the same. However, I believe they both are distinguishable.

Yes, inward call and external call are distinguishable.

The external call functions only by means of the word and the Spirit does join Himself in common Illumination and historical faith. Consider, Hebrews 6:4, For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,...........

I agree as long as "the word" encompasses all of God's word in all its many forms. God spoke creation into existence and all His many attributes are declared thereby. The gospel is now proclaimed in all creation (Col. 1:13) but it been revealed in veiled form almost from the beginning. The tree of life in Een would be one early example. As I have already posted, I find Hebrews 6:4 a poor verse upon which to base the otherwise valid point made about the external call.

Genesis 3:9
Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

The internal calling however, penetrates the very heart of man, powerfully illuminating it with wonderous light revealing mysteries to the man. And powerfully inclines the will to embrace those mysteries in Christ, and to the obedience of faith.
Consider: It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45.

I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, Eph 1:18

Yes, but I think texts like Psalm 39:3, Luke 24:32, 1 Cor. 2:11-16, and 2 Peter 1:21 are better texts upon which to make the case for the inward calling penetrating the heart and illuminating the heart, revealing mysteries to the man. John 6:45 and Eph. 1:18 pertain to already saved people. The inward call to which Daivd so often alluded in his psalms was pre-Calvary. The experience of the two on the Emmaus Road was prior to the time Jesus spent teaching the disciples following his resurrection and Pentecost. Peter's observation covers all the prophets (presumably from Abel to John).

Ephesians 3:14-19
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.



.

 

[Carbon]

Also, the enlightening of the mind is not efficient enough to produce faith because it does not take away the corruption of the will. You see, man is called enlightened, and then drawn by God. The conversion of the will is the effectual conversion of the whole man,
for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.
The will is the prime subject of grace.

Not that I have already grasped it all or have already become perfect, but I press on if I may also take hold of that for which I was even taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12.

 

[Carbon]

Should I have any expectation the posts will be kept about the posts and not the posters, or not?

And will you stop speaking for all Calvinists?

 

[Josheb]

In Ephesians, its obvious Paul is writing to believers, because he says so. Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
But, do you think for one minute Paul believed everyone attending the Christian church in Ephesus was a believer? Excuse my stupid question, of course, you don't. In the epistle, he prays for them. Why would Paul pray for the believers, that their hearts may be enlightened? Haven't the believer's hearts already been enlightened? The gospel call gathers men together, those who do not have faith, though enlightened, since they have no faith it does not benefit them.
For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also did; but the word they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united with those who listened with faith. Heb 4:2.

Many are called, but few are chosen

Yep.

When men hear the gospel, they are enlightened, and the elect, God moves and stirs the others fall away as those in Hebrews 6. Jesus said......
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44.

Sorta.

Many people hear the gospel and are never enlightened. Those that are enlightened when they hear the gospel are enlighten by grace. They are called to the gospel by God, drawn to Christ by God, and much more. John 6:44 says nothing about men hearing the gospel being enlightened and every single NT use of Isaiah 6:9 proves it.

Also, the enlightening of the mind is not efficient enough to produce faith because it does not take away the corruption of the will. You see, man is called[,] enlightened, and then drawn by God. The conversion of the will is the effectual conversion of the whole man,

Yep.

for it is God who is at work in you, both to desire and to work for His good pleasure. Phil 2:13.

Poor selection to support the position, imo.

The will is the prime subject of grace.

Did you mean "object" or "subject"? Either way, that statement will have to be reconciled with the earlier statement about the whole man, and I would submit it is the spirit that is the prime subject/object of grace, but neither am I inclined to split such haors because the passage from which we all measure salvation verses is Ephesians 2's salvation....

• by grace,
• through,
• for works that were planned by God for us to perform before we were ever saved.

Oh, I doubt that.

I do hope that's not intended to be snide, catty or to otherwise insinuate something unkind.

My turn?

Yes, I am still waiting for the case proving the Hebrews 6:4 person is not saved, as well as your views of enlightenment and tasting heavenly gifts for the unsaved.

Do you not agree with anything I said?

I have affirmed that which I find consistent with well-rendered scripture,* inquired about the things that were either unclear or I did not adequately understand, and attempted to refute or correct the things I found inconsistent with well-rendered scripture,* as is my common practice in most threads.










*In this thread that begins with properly identifying audience affiliations.
.

 

[Carbon]

While the impasse pertaining to Hebrews 6:4 awaits resolution I'll address some of the op's other content.

Yep. I completely agree.

Yes, sorta. The inward and external call need not be solely by means of the gospel. The Holy Spirit calls people to the gospel for the gospel. In other words, the Holy Spirit is just as much an agent of the gospel as the Law or the Son, or creation itself (at least to the degree Romans 1:19-20 communicates anything about the gospel).

Yes, inward call and external call are distinguishable.

I agree as long as "the word" encompasses all of God's word in all its many forms. God spoke creation into existence and all His many attributes are declared thereby. The gospel is now proclaimed in all creation (Col. 1:13) but it been revealed in veiled form almost from the beginning. The tree of life in Een would be one early example. As I have already posted, I find Hebrews 6:4 a poor verse upon which to base the otherwise valid point made about the external call.

Genesis 3:9
Then the LORD God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

Yes, but I think texts like Psalm 39:3, Luke 24:32, 1 Cor. 2:11-16, and 2 Peter 1:21 are better texts upon which to make the case for the inward calling penetrating the heart and illuminating the heart, revealing mysteries to the man. John 6:45 and Eph. 1:18 pertain to already saved people. The inward call to which Daivd so often alluded in his psalms was pre-Calvary. The experience of the two on the Emmaus Road was prior to the time Jesus spent teaching the disciples following his resurrection and Pentecost. Peter's observation covers all the prophets (presumably from Abel to John).

Ephesians 3:14-19
For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.



.

Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Josheb]

And will you stop speaking for all Calvinists?

Never happened. My comment about Calvinism may have been read that way but that is not what it states. As I previously stated, I am open to the evidence proving there are three kinds of people, saved, unsaved, and some other yet to be defined group. Had that evidence been provided when the question first arose this current exchange would be unnecessary. Post the proof and I'll amend my posts accordingly. Absent any such proof accept what was posted.