The Battle of Armageddon

[3 Resurrections]

Futurists are not genuinely interested in changing even though they know folks in that eschatology have a 100% fail rate. They know it. It's not news to anyone. I don't know about your search results but Google "the end of dispensationalism" and the results are alarming. Lots of folks are beginning to realize the last few decades of near-hegemony have been misguided and the dissent is not coming solely from prets (partial- or full-).

Yes, I have often thought that it will take having this aging population slowly pass away for the realization to sink in how flawed all that stuff was. Rather like the generation of Israelites slowly passing one by one during the 40 years of wilderness wanderings, so that their children could enter the promised land. Not one of those men who came out of Egypt survived to see the promised land except the faithful Caleb and Joshua. I want to be a Joshua or Caleb to offer a testimony of God's faithfulness in keeping His past prophetic words to the letter in the time frame He promised to perform it back then.

I pray often for God to let me survive long enough to be a voice of hope and reassurance of God's power and promise-keeping to my grandchildren. They are about to get hit in the gut in the approaching transition to the 7th millennium in 2033, and for the past decade I have warned all my adult children of what I strongly believe is coming their way. But always with the assured understanding that God has a purpose for this which will be for their ultimate good and for the continual progress of His kingdom in this world.

For anyone who hasn't already seen it, R. C. Sproul's series titled, "The Last Days According to Jesus," is well worth the time.

I did read that one quite a while back, and while it was a good one to read, it didn't nail down enough of the answers, and was a bit on the lukewarm side. A good introduction to Preterism from a trusted source, but it needed a stronger sequel.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, I have often thought that it will take having this aging population slowly pass away for the realization to sink in....

Yes, and for those with truth to speak up. Sadly, turning on the radio to the average Christian broadcast shows the airwaves are still over-run with futurists. More Sprouls and Pipers are needed.

I pray often for God to let me survive long enough to be a voice of hope and reassurance of God's power and promise-keeping to my grandchildren.

I empathize. I married late. I'm 65 and my kids are 25 and 23. One just got married so I'm looking for that first grandchild.

I did read that one quite a while back, and while it was a good one to read, it didn't nail down enough of the answers, and was a bit on the lukewarm side. A good introduction to Preterism from a trusted source, but it needed a stronger sequel.

I don't think Sproul was a convince pret until he read gentry. Speculation, but he mentions being persuaded by Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell," (note it is now free for those with kindle unlimited!) in the video. Quite an acknowledgment from someone as cautious, skeptical and studied as Sproul.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, we cannot start there because none of it is scriptural and none of it is rational. Every single word of that post is forsaken of God, scripture, and logic. The place to start is with scripture read exactly as written and properly exegeted using scripture first to understand scripture and you and I are not going to agree because I am going to read Revelation 1:1-3 exactly as written with the normal meaning of the words when said in ordinary everyday usage and compared with other scripture using the same words. I am going to do the exact same with Rev. 1:19. Everything written thereafter, including the mention of harmagedon, will be read in that context unless the text itself states otherwise.

Hi thanks for the reply

I would offer the same of your private interpretation I do not agree with your way of interpreting .The Bible instructs us how we can seek His approval . We always start out with the literal literature as it is written what the eyes see. . . needed to find the signified understanding of the parables which without Christ spoke mot . If we fail to look to the signified language of parables spoken of in Revelation 1:1 we forfeit the gospel understanding called Hidden manna in Chapter 2 :17

Revelation 1King James Version1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Again sent prophesied and given a spiritual signified understanding the gospel

No literal sign were given the thousand in that parable Revelation 20 is the golden measure of faith a unknown .God called those who do seek after a sign a evil generation not part of the generation of Christ the born again generation Christians .

(Purple) my added comment

Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, (signifying what is it? foreign to our understanding )and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

[CrowCross]

I haven't been shown anything other than a fallacious post hoc argument imagined to prove something when it is fallacious from start to finish.

And now we can add argumentum ad nauseam to the list of fallacies you have employed.

Gladly, if it will make any difference. Will it? Will it make any difference when I answer every single one "When did X happen?" asked? Will it?

Just for the record...what I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, and for those with truth to speak up. Sadly, turning on the radio to the average Christian broadcast shows the airwaves are still over-run with futurists. More Sprouls and Pipers are needed.

What I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

 

[CrowCross]

I don't mean to be negative Josheb, but it wouldn't make a difference even if you wrote a magnum opus on all the historical proofs. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

What I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

 

[TMSO]

Can't see God he is invisible.

So, I guess Jesus was invisible, as Jesus was the Word (that was with God, and WAS GOD). Jesus was the visible manifestation (incarnation) of God, and if you have seen Jesus (quite a few people in saw Jesus walking around, teaching, etc.), then you have seen the Father. That is you have seen God, walking around in the flesh, experiencing all we experience in the human existence.

Jesus with words from his Father made the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel) desolate in Matthew 23. The mark of His word what he says it came to pass. Is desolate not will be in the future . We walk by faith, Christs in us the unseen eternal

This abomination of desolation occurs with a new temple, which, coincidentally, there is no new temple, yet. Consider the last week of Daniel, set for the removal of sin from the creation. At the end, the one who makes the covenant with Israel will break said covenant, and will end the sacrificial system. After that his end comes, and the end of the world. There is no sacrificial system in Israel if there is no temple. They have groups who have been doing mock sacrifices to keep the tradition alive, waiting for another temple.

When the timing of the first century reformation came according to the parable the veil was rent indicating the circumcision of our bloody husband Christ. The sky darkened .and the earth quaked to indicate the old testament saint graves were open. . they in there new born again spirits entered the city of Christ the new Jerusalem prepared for his bride the church.

The veil was torn because Jesus had completed His sacrifice of reconciliation. The sky darkened and the earth quaked because this was the God man dying on the cross. Those who were resurrected after Jesus death, died again. Just like Lazarus.

All of the tribes nations of the world groaned .They had been deceived by the father of lies that God was a Jewish King of kings . There was no man sitting in the Holy of Holies. According to the parable in Revelation 20 Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations. that God is a Jewish man . the two discriminatory walls fell down that separate the Jewish woman from participating with the Jewish men .Discriminatory Men only club. . along with another high wall that separated the Jewish flesh from the gentile. A gospel explosion one like never before or ever again .The 15th century reformation a reflection

Creation is groaning for the end of sin, not tribes of the world. Satan has not yet fallen, because He is before the throne constantly pointing out the sins of God's saints, brining accusations. He will not be kicked out of heaven until the tribulation. Something happens at that time, and Satan goes to war in heaven, and loses. At that time He is cast to Earth, and he knows at that time, that the time of his end is near. So he seeks to deceive the nations of the world, and set them against God, through the beast, his image, and his mark. At the end of the tribulation, Satan with the beast and his armies attack Jerusalem, and are destroyed in Christ's return to Earth. At that time, Satan is bound and cast into the pit, sealed for the 1000 years, that he may not once again deceive the nations of the world. At the end of the 1000 years, he is released to deceive Gog and Magog, and all the nations in on earth at that time, they besiege the saints at Jerusalem, and God finally destroys them all and casts Satan into the lake of fire, along with everyone else. (That is a quick summary, so not perfect.)

Revelation 20:3King James Version And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

He is loosed for his final destruction.

He will be loosed to aid in building another temple made with human hands (abomination of desolation) On the last day under the Sun, Christ who dwells in sons of God will depart like a thief in the night the old courted generation up in smoke . . . . . . . the end of time.

He will be loosed to do what the context says he will do... deceive the nations of the world. Don't get confused.

 

[TMSO]

You are mixing up Peter's warning and Paul's. The scoffers in Peter's days (written around the mid-60's) were saying "Where is the promise of His coming?", when Christ's coming was right around the corner in AD 70. Those Paul warned against were men such as Hymenaeus and Philetus who thought the resurrection was past already, and that there would not be another resurrection event. They were right in that the "First resurrection" of Christ the First-fruits and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints was past, but they were wrong that this was the only resurrection event that would ever occur. Again, the AD 70 bodily resurrection event at Christ's return was just around the corner for them.

I think you forgot that if one is not part of the first resurrection, they have no hope. Only those in the first resurrection will not face the second death. Can you understand why the faith of some was upset? If the resurrection already happened, they were doomed. So, since you say the resurrection has already happened, then we are all doomed. Except we aren't... which means that resurrection has not yet happened. Remember what Peter said "10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [b]its works will be [c]burned up." So are we some glitch in the matrix of a world that burnt up in 70AD, when you say that "the AD 70 bodily resurrection event at Christ's return was just around the corner..." What did Jesus Himself say about His return?

"29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other."

"10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and [b]its works will be [c]burned up."

The words of Christ and Peter stand against you. Everything ends when Jesus returns. Yet, everything has not yet ended, leading us again to the words of Peter: "3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.”"

Peter isn't covering all Eschatology. His point was:
"11 Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen."

The "tribes of the earth" were Israelite tribes mourning to see Christ returning to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70. Zechariah 12:11-13 lists some of the members of those tribes who would be mourning to see their Messiah coming, with themselves left behind as He gathered His resurrected saints to return to heaven with Him. These "tribes of the earth" no longer exist, and haven't since the genealogical records of the tribes were burned up with the temple archives by the end of AD 70.

Why didn't Jesus say the tribes of Israel? They are mentioned in the New Testament. However, Jesus said tribes of Earth, which means everyone will see Jesus, and everyone will mourn Him for their rebellion and rejection. They know they are doomed. Israel also mourns, but for a different reason. The tribes still exist. God knows who they are. (At least, I would hope He does. If He needed those scrolls to know who were in the tribes of His chosen people, that would definitely put a crimp on the idea of God's omniscience.

 

[Mr GLee]

So, I guess Jesus was invisible, as Jesus was the Word (that was with God, and WAS GOD). Jesus was the visible manifestation (incarnation) of God, and if you have seen Jesus (quite a few people in saw Jesus walking around, teaching, etc.), then you have seen the Father. That is you have seen God, walking around in the flesh, experiencing all we experience in the human existence.

God our Holy Father remains invisible. God is not a man .He uses form to show his unseen power as a work ot r labor of His love .The let there be and it was God good law of faith.

This abomination of desolation occurs with a new temple, which, coincidentally, there is no new temple, yet. Consider the last week of Daniel, set for the removal of sin from the creation. At the end, the one who makes the covenant with Israel will break said covenant, and will end the sacrificial system. After that his end comes, and the end of the world. There is no sacrificial system in Israel if there is no temple. They have groups who have been doing mock sacrifices to keep the tradition alive, waiting for another temple.

The abomination of desolation "atheist kings in Israel" It took place when in 1 Samuel 8 God gave them over to do that which they should not of. Rather rather than walking by faith like the other judges and serve God they became jealous of all the pangan nations that had a visible ruler over them .As fools they refused to believe in a God not seen. God gave them over till the time of reformation .

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The first century reformation came and restored the government back to the Judges . . prophets from all nations sent out as apostles

Temples not made with human hands was declared by the powerful word of God making dying human form in the replace our invisible God to no effect. Jesus declaring the abomination of desolation Temple made to no efect when he walked out from it the last time in Mathew 23 Not will be desolate when a couple bricks fall in 70 AD. No sign was given to wonder after as a later date

The reformation witnessed by Joel was hid from the unbelieving Jew.In troducing the lasts days At the end of the ;last days they will again attempt to build another abounantim of desolation Temple made with human hands.

Acts 2:15-17King James Version For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: (all the nations) and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The time period when there were female prophets like Rehab of Deborah as Judges sent out as apostles was restored to moving temple made by the hand of God. . prophets sent with His prophecy called apostles

He will be loosed to do what the context says he will do... deceive the nations of the world. Don't get confused.

Yes in respect to nations. . not sin in general. He continually accuses the brethren day and night .24/7

When the veil was rent to represent the circumcision of our bloody husband there was no King of kings sitting in the Holy of Holies .Satan could no longer deceive the whole world God is a Jewish man . . . which he did attempt with Peter in Matthew 16 .

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that "man of sin" be revealed, the son of perdition;

The father of lies attempted to make Peter into the man of sin spoken of above . Satan uses human form to send out his false apostles with false prophecy.cal led antichrists. . . . another teaching authority other than all things writen in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man, Jesus. It cannot be forgiven against our unseen Holy Father the Creator .Our Holy Father alone has the power to forgive those born again from above.

Fulfilling the fall spoken of in the parable found in Revelation 20 :3 again having to do with all the nations of the world when two or three gather under the hearing of his faith or labor of Love that works in those yoked with him ,

No signs were given to the last day. We have prophecy to the end of time sealed with 7 seals

Revelation 20:1-3King James Version And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


What do you offer as to the timing of the fail when Satan could no longer deceive all the nation as families of the world ?

 

[Josheb]

Hi thanks for the reply

I would offer the same of your private interpretation I do not agree with your way of interpreting.

I have not interpreted.

I have not interpreted.

I have not interpreted. I did not add anything to what is written. Nor did I subtract from anything that was written. I read scripture exactly as written WITHOUT INTERPRETATION! And that should give you pause. You should be asking yourself why it is you add interpretation and criticize those who do not.

The Bible instructs us how we can seek His approval. We always start out with the literal literature as it is written what the eyes see. . .

You do not.

The literal reading of Revelation 1:1-3 explicitly states the things written down were written down because the time was near. The word "near" means near, near in time or space. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "near" mean "2000 or more years from now." Whenever God uses the word "near," in the New Testament He always means near. Do not try to appeal to Psalm 90:4 or 2 Peter 3:8 because neither of those verse uses the word "near."

I completely, whole-hearted, exuberantly agree with you: we always start out with the literal literature, but you do not. If you did then you too would read Revelation 1:1-3 and 22:7,10 literally except where the text indicates we should not. You would do the same with Revelation 1:19 and Matthew 24's "this generation."

.....needed to find the signified understanding of the parables which without Christ spoke mot. If we fail to look to the signified language of parables spoken of in Revelation 1:1 we forfeit the gospel understanding called Hidden manna in Chapter 2 :17

My regrets. I just realized you're the guy with the end times views that is profanely unscriptural, so egregiously irrational, and so intellectually bereft that they defy cogent discourse and anything else I may say in reply would only likely offend. Everything I read in the rest of the post is confirms that appraisal because it is wrong and most of it is eisegetically twisted and logically fallacious.

Post hoc arguments are always and everywhere fallacious!​

Futurists really need to grasp the foolishness of "It didn't yet happen," because the argument itself is irrational. The events did happen. They did not happen the way you wrongly imagine it will happen. Huge differences between "They did not happen," and "They did not happen the way my eschatology says they will happen." You do not read scripture as written. You all ignore what is explicitly stated. The audience affiliations and temporal markers are ignored. The eisegesis is random copy-and-paste rather than working outward from the text, scripture conflicting with scripture is ignored, scripture is subjugated to an extra-biblical eschatology, selective views of secular history, and the evening newscast, and fallacy after fallacy is applied without regret.

There is not a single bit of it that is good practice. It is bad methodology leading to bad doctrine that, in turn, leads to bad practice of the Christian life. Futurist eschatology has bred hundreds of false teachers who have never made a single correct prediction. They are ALL wrong. 100% fail rate.

 

[Josheb]

Just for the record...what I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

Just for the record You were invite to walk through the scriptures with me and refused, invited to examine scripture on your own and report what you found and refused, invited to respond to some of the most explicit statement in Matthew 24 and Revelation and ignored it, were asked if your inquiry was sincere and asked if the information would make any difference and that too was ignored, and you continue to argue a thoroughly irrational post hoc protest.


That is what the record shows.

 

[Mr GLee]

I have not interpreted. I did not add anything to what is written. Nor did I subtract from anything that was written. I read scripture exactly as written WITHOUT INTERPRETATION! And that should give you pause. You should be asking yourself why it is you add interpretation and criticize those who do not.

Sorry. . A private interpretation is simply a personal commentary of what we think he is reaching called in the Greek a heresy,sect, opinion .he says there must be differences in opinion we walk by his faith working in us.

No offence towards you

 

[Josheb]

Sorry. .

Do not say "Sorry..." if you're not sorry. It makes you a liar. It is a wretched social convention that has no place in the life of a Christian and does nothing for this conversation. You cannot be sorry for another's words or deeds and if you are sorry about something you said or did then repent and do things different.

A private interpretation is simply a personal commentary of what we think he is reaching called in the Greek a heresy, sect, opinion .he says there must be differences in opinion we walk by his faith working in us.

You're wrong.

No offence towards you

None taken. I think that post and the one before evidence things I probably should not post, so I won't. The fact remains I haven't "interpreted" anything, the protest claiming I did is factually incorrect, and the argument seeking to compare one supposed interpretation with an admitted interpretation is a false equivalence fallacy.

The posts I have received are profanely unscriptural, egregiously irrational, and intellectually bereft.

 

[Mr GLee]

The literal reading of Revelation 1:1-3 explicitly states the things written down were written down because the time was near. The word "near" means near, near in time or space. Nowhere in the Bible does the word "near" mean "2000 or more years from now." Whenever God uses the word "near," in the New Testament He always means near. Do not try to appeal to Psalm 90:4 or 2 Peter 3:8 because neither of those verse uses the word "near."

I completely, whole-hearted, exuberantly agree with you: we always start out with the literal literature, but you do not. If you did then you too would read Revelation 1:1-3 and 22:7,10 literally except where the text indicates we should not. You would do the same with Revelation 1:19 and Matthew 24's "this generation."

Not sure why you decided to change from the kind of prophecy "signified" as shadow pointing ahead or backward and rather make it about time period or what some called dispensations. . as if God who finished all the work in six days established every purpose to his good pleasure under the heaven: the thousand years is a golden measure the measure of His faith. He gives us little calling us little faith In that way we must decrease as he increases causing growth if any . the thousand years is used as it was the first three time signified metaphor to represent an unknown the golden measure The word thousand is used in that way no matter what is in view Simply not revealed by the Father who owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills

Psalm 50:9-11King James Version9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy fold For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the field are mine.

In that parable above God whose name is JEALOUS He owns all of the cattle on the thousand of mountains . Thousand is used as a unknown or all and wild beasts

Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?

All representing thousand twice a unknown

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. . . . . . . an unknown

As a thousands . . .,as a signalling a parable is in process Parables given to us in the most signified chapter of the book of prophecy the bible the last "Revelation" sealed with 7 seals simular to the poetic tongue of parables in the Song of Songs .One continuous picture of the gospel having all the parables previously worked with the last chapter Revelation the burden is lighter . Literal l thousand years does not fit the ther golden picture from my understanding Not three times and you are out of the picture in the last chapter of the book of prrophecy .

Song of Solomon 4:4 Thy neck is like the tower of David builded for an armoury, whereon there hang a thousand bucklers, all shields of mighty men.

Song of Solomon 5:10 My beloved is white and ruddy, the chiefest among ten thousand.

Song of Solomon 8:11Solomon had a vineyard at Baalhamon; he let out the vineyard unto keepers; every one for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver.

Song of Solomon 8:12 My vineyard, which is mine, is before me: thou, O Solomon, must have a thousand, and those that keep the fruit thereof two hundred.

Ten, hundreds in multiples of thousand, ten thousand make up the same a unknown not revealed by our Holy Father he has no need to reveal it .

Remember he said no signs would be given we have prophecy

 

[CrowCross]

Just for the record You were invite to walk through the scriptures with me and refused, invited to examine scripture on your own and report what you found and refused, invited to respond to some of the most explicit statement in Matthew 24 and Revelation and ignored it, were asked if your inquiry was sincere and asked if the information would make any difference and that too was ignored, and you continue to argue a thoroughly irrational post hoc protest.


That is what the record shows.

And in walking through scripture I presented SEVERAL verses...not just one, but SEVERAL that pointed out a lot of death to people on the earth...and you refused to address the biblical verses I presented.

As I have said, there is much in Revelation that hasn't happened...and when pointed out to you....you hide behind my so-called refusal to address your speculation?

 

[Mr GLee]

Do not say "Sorry..." if you're not sorry. It makes you a liar. It is a wretched social convention that has no place in the life of a Christian and does nothing for this conversation. You cannot be sorry for another's words or deeds and if you are sorry about something you said or did then repent and do things different.

I am sorry for the indifference in fingerprints of both, neither ones fault God makes us as his family different we are not just not walking together as one in purpose or mind called heresies differences sects heresies are allowed as long as they do not to despite to the fullness of his grace the full price Christ alone paid with his sufferings working with the Father . That opinion that mankind receives a unknown amount of grace is judged as in no light of the gospel a dark place.

Some teach they receive a unknown amount grace and must continual to suffer even as they take their last breath of oxygen and they must continue to wonder and suffer for a unknown time .Teaching that only a Queen Mother as a female deity received the fullness of grace while the rest continue to wonder and suffer

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

 

[Josheb]

And in walking through scripture I presented SEVERAL verses...

Never happened.

All you did was quote mine selected verses and make baseless claims "It never happened." That is the exact antithesis of walking through scripture. The fact is all those questions, invitations, and exhortations are still sitting idly in the thread completely ignored. NONE of you futurists have done anything to respond to any of them.


Here's a simple one: Show me where Revelation 16 mentions armies.


The immediate, unequivocal answer should be "It doesn't" and then we'd instantly have agreement and instantly be able to examine any claim there are armies in Rev. 16 and instantly be able to build from that consensus but every single one of you refuse to do anything even remotely agreeable with scripture plainly read as written. You, CrowCross, could have perused the chapters before and after Rev. 16 many times by now and post, "I can see that everything you posted is definitely 100% correct and appreciate you asking me to find an area of agreement with you."

but you do not do that.

None of you do!

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: ...enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions.......... and things like these.........

To a poster the whole lot of you are the most factious posters in any eschatology board in and Christian forum. You refuse to walk through scripture with others when offered the opportunity in goodwill. You refuse to examine scripture independently for relevant content when asked. Fallacy is posted chronically.

• Covenant Israel has not been restored. Therefore, modern Israel's existence is not the marker for anything prophetic.
• Those who claim to read scripture literally do not. If they did then the 14 "this generation" of the gospels and the "near" and "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things," would be read literally and everything else read in those contexts. There would be no adding or subtracting from the book that instructs the reader not to add to or subtract from it.
• The Matthew 24 and Luke 17 reference to Noah is not about the rapture. In the days of Noah those taken away by the flood were destroyed, not saved from God's wrath.
• The disciples are handed over to tribulation and those washing their robes in Christ's blood go through the great tribulation. This is about the only place there's any agreement among the posters in this thread with scripture.
• Jesus is not stated coming to earth at any time in Revelation 15 through 20.
• Post hoc and false equivalence fallacies are common when they should not exist at all.
• False teachers abound in futurism and their false teaching gets replicated in every forum and there's an utter lack of accountability for two centuries of falsehood.

You wouldn't even answer the question, "Would it make any difference?" when asked.

And in walking through scripture I presented SEVERAL verses...

Never happened.

Quote mining is not walking through scripture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I think you forgot that if one is not part of the first resurrection, they have no hope. Only those in the first resurrection will not face the second death.

We would agree that if one does not have a share in what Christ accomplished in the First resurrection, that there is no hope for eternal life for them.

But this doesn't change the fact that the "First resurrection" was a single event which happened in real time on the calendar at a certain point. Those Matthew 27:52-53 saints, who were resurrected that same day as Christ was, had remained on earth in those days of the early church. All of those many resurrected saints were immune to the effects of the "second death" / Lake of Fire conditions for the city of Jerusalem, even though some of them were actually in the city of Jerusalem itself as it was experiencing all those horrors in the AD 66-70 siege of the city. It's impossible for any resurrected person to be harmed by sword, famine, pestilence, or even spiritual oppression by the demonic. And all of those things were being experienced by the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem in that period of Great Tribulation when Jerusalem and its temple was dying for the second time. It was almost a duplicate of Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonian invasion in 586 BC.

Can you understand why the faith of some was upset? If the resurrection already happened, they were doomed. So, since you say the resurrection has already happened, then we are all doomed.

No, we believers are certainly not doomed. We are expecting to participate in the next resurrection event in our future. Two resurrection events have already happened back in AD 33 and AD 70, and we await the third one. In the meantime, we are currently blessed to be living under the New Covenant with the NHNE conditions and the spiritual New Jerusalem in place.

The words of Christ and Peter stand against you. Everything ends when Jesus returns.

No, Peter's words are what I am quoting from 1 Peter 4:7. "But the end of all things is at hand", he wrote of the days he was then experiencing. You are the one who doesn't believe Peter.

Why didn't Jesus say the tribes of Israel? They are mentioned in the New Testament. However, Jesus said tribes of Earth,

The "tribes of the earth" are the tribes of the land of Israel. The term is "tes ges", which most of the time in scripture refers to things taking place in the land of Israel - not the globe at large. Revelation 1:7 is quoting Zechariah 12:10, which was speaking of the tribes of Israel - not the entire world. The genealogical records of the tribal lineages were burned up in Jerusalem by the close of AD 70. The Zealots themselves put a torch to the archives. God intended that to happen to erase the tribal distinctions which had no more significance for prophecy thereafter. In Christ, there is neither Jew not Gentile under the New Covenant. Only someone interested in racial superiority would think it important to preserve any tribal lineage from Israel at this point. The Israelite tribes served their ultimate purpose in leading to Christ's incarnation through the line of Judah. Job done.

 

[CrowCross]

• Covenant Israel has not been restored. Therefore, modern Israel's existence is not the marker for anything prophetic.

Israel was restored in 1948...whether you like it or not.

• Those who claim to read scripture literally do not. If they did then the 14 "this generation" of the gospels and the "near" and "the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things," would be read literally and everything else read in those contexts. There would be no adding or subtracting from the book that instructs the reader not to add to or subtract from it.

As mentioned to you before...and you seem to have forgetten...the term "generation" has SEVERAL nuances and not one meaning as you suggest.

• The Matthew 24 and Luke 17 reference to Noah is not about the rapture. In the days of Noah those taken away by the flood were destroyed, not saved from God's wrath.

Noah taken on the ark was saved from the wrath. Believe me, when the future physical coming of Jesus occurs things will not be conductive for people to be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Rev 19:11 Zech 14:14

• The disciples are handed over to tribulation and those washing their robes in Christ's blood go through the great tribulation. This is about the only place there's any agreement among the posters in this thread with scripture.

When has the great tribulatiuon happened? This past event you speak of that has happened...like never before or never again?

• Jesus is not stated coming to earth at any time in Revelation 15 through 20.

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army......apparently Jesus is on earth when this occurs.

• Post hoc and false equivalence fallacies are common when they should not exist at all.

I'm simply pointing out your errors. For example I pointed out several verses that speak of major big time death...and so far you haven't shown where it all happened in history.

• False teachers abound in futurism and their false teaching gets replicated in every forum and there's an utter lack of accountability for two centuries of falsehood.

The argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not historically true. ref

 

[Josheb]

Israel was restored in 1948...whether you like it or not.

ROTFLMBO!

No, it wasn't. Whether you like it or not.

As mentioned to you before...and you seem to have forgetten...the term "generation" has SEVERAL nuances and not one meaning as you suggest.

No, it does not.

Noah taken on the ark was saved from the wrath.

And he remained on the earth, while those taken from the earth were destroyed and destroyed because of their wickedness.

Believe me...

No.

.....when the future physical coming of Jesus occurs things will not be conductive for people to be eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. Rev 19:11 Zech 14:14

Eisegetic copy-and-paste nonsense. You are going to die never having seen what you tell everyone is coming soon and you will resurrect to face God having to explain the vain words falsely taught to others.

When has the great tribulatiuon happened? This past event you speak of that has happened...like never before or never again?

What difference will it make to you if I can and do explain it? You need to answer this question because I am not wasting my time on poseurs.

19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies assembled to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army......apparently Jesus is on earth when this occurs.

No, he is not.

This speculation coming with the "apparently" happens because of the proof-texting I've recommended you no long practice. Had you read verse 19 with its accompanying text the following would be seen:

Revelation 19:11-19
And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "Come, assemble for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great." And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

The events John saw happened in heaven, not on earth. This happens throughout the book of Revelation but Revelation is not the only place events are directed from heaven with effect on earth.

Psalm 110:1-7
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet." The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, "Rule in the midst of Your enemies." Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew. The LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." The Lord is at Your right hand; He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath. He will judge among the nations, He will fill them with corpses, He will shatter the chief men over a broad country. He will drink from the brook by the wayside; Therefore, He will lift up His head.

The Lord stays seated in heaven until his LORD makes a footstool of the Lord's enemies. That is what it states. While seated in heaven he extends his scepter from Zion. While seated in heaven his people volunteer in holy array. While seated in heaven the kings are shattered and the nations filled with corpses.

Revelation 19 does not state he comes to earth but it does explicitly state the heavens were opened and John saw the angel telling the birds to assemble for the great supper of God where they would eat on the flesh of horses and men. The kings of the earth wage war against Christ (just as they always have) and Jesus is still seated on hiw white horse while he strikes down the nation with his word, the sword in his mouth, not in his hand.

You don't read scripture as written. You say, "apparently" because of your pre-existing end-times biases, not because the text of scripture is vague or implies something it does not state. Jesus is not reported to come to earth in Revelation until chapter 21, and even then the language is figurative.

Revelation 21:22-23
But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

By which time the tribulation, the binding of satan, the millennium, all the wars, and the final judgment have all transpired. There's not a single place prior to chapter 21 where Jesus is explicitly stated to physically come the earth. The futurist eschatologies all speculate and infer and say, "apparently," because they have NOTHING explicitly stating what they infer. It's a bad eschatology built from bad exegesis. And you just proved it with your "apparently." You should not have removed verse 19 from its text. You should have read the larger passage and understood that verse in a manner consistent with its immediately surrounding text and the larger text of Revelation as a whole, and then in a manner consistent with whole scripture. Zechariah 14 cannot be interpreted to contradict Psalm 110 anymore that Revelation 19 can.

Scripture does not contradict scripture.

I'm simply pointing out your errors.

No, you are not. You are posting errors! Error after error after error after error and you think "apparently" is the correct way to read scripture.

It is not.

For example I pointed out several verses that speak of major big time death...and so far you haven't shown where it all happened in history.

Because they do not deserve a response. Not a single "big time death" verse you proof-texted and quote mined rivals the big-time death of the flood. Eight people survived. If you are going to argue only seven Christians survive the great tribulation and the war of Armageddon then I am all eyes and ears because I really want to see how that argument is accomplished. But for normal people with normal brains who know how to reason normally and read scripture as written nothing is going to be as big time death as the flood.

Apparently.

The argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not historically true. ref

LOL. Nice dodge.

We're talking about Dispensational pretribulational Premillennialism, not just any pretrib view. Don't be making false comparisons of I will add false equivalence to the list of fallacies you've employed.

More importantly, It does not matter whether anyone taught pretribulationism prior to Darby because scripture makes it clear the pre-trib view is wrong, blatantly contrary to and contradictory to scripture. The disciples are handed over to tribulation (Mt. 24:9). Immediately after the abomination of desolation they are to flee, and they will see the great tribulation cut short lest all flesh die ()Mt. 24:21-22). Immediately after the tribulation the elect are gathered (Mt. 24:29). John was a partaker in the tribulation (Rev. 1:9). God knew the tribulation Smyrna was enduring, and the Jezebel living in the church in Thyatira was going to be handed over to the great tribulation (Rev. 2:22). Those that washed their robes in the blood of the lamb came through the great tribulation (Rev. 7:14). In point of fact, 14 of the 16 times the New Testament speaks of tribulation it is the believers in God who go are referenced and endure it. I do not need "apparently." I don't need inferences. I stand firmly on what is stated without added interpretation. I can point to a verse and believe exactly what it states. I encourage you to give it a try.

Pretribulationalism is a lie.

No matter who first taught it.