The Battle of Armageddon

[Mr GLee]

No where in the bible does it say Jesus came in that generation. The bible describes the rapture as well as the second coming and no where in history is that reflected.

I would think Jesus the Son of man working with the father gave birth to the new born again generation of Christ. . The born again spiritual seed Christ.

The seed of the second born to represent all born from above .Beginning with Abel the first martyr/ prophet. leading to God's first born ending in the genealogy. Matthew 1.. . The shadow became sight

Book of the generation of faith .The names written in the lamb book of life from the foundation the 6 Days our Holy Father did work.

Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

No sign were given to wonder after .Jesus replied it's a evil generation that does seek after wonders rather than trusting prophecy .God's book of law.

Christ will leave like a thief in the night on the last day. under the Sun the last days under the Sun began when Jesus the prophet was given words from the Holy Father declaring to the whole world . . It is finished

 

[Josheb]

No where in the bible does it say Jesus came in that generation. The bible describes the rapture as well as the second coming and no where in history is that reflected.

You are mistaken.

When you say, "Nowhere is that said..." or "Nowhere is that reflected..." what you mean is "Nowhere is that reflected as my end-times view says it will happen."


In Matthew 23 and 24, Jesus stated the words "this generation" twice (vvs. 23:36 and 24:34). The conjugation of the Greek is near demonstrative, which means the two words CANNOT be translated to mean "that generation," or anything other than "this generation to whom I am now speaking." Now we know the things Jesus said to "this generation" in chapter 23 came true and they came true in the generation of the Pharisees to whom he was speaking at the time when he spoke those words. The temple was destroyed, and the Pharisees were wiped out. Those two events are facts of history. This places a burden on the person saying the "this generation of chapter 23 is different from the "this generation" of chapter 24. There is no burden on those saying the two are identical because that would be the natural, normal, ordinary reading of the narrative. It is the difference that has to be justified and explained.

This is especially the case given the fact the phrase "this generation" is used four times in Matthew's gospel (Mt. 11:16, 12:41, 23:36 and 24:34), and on all four occasion Jesus is talking about the generation to whom he is speaking at that moment. So the obligation to justify the protest is not on the reader who views all four mentions synonymously, but on the one who treats one verse differently than all the others. Furthermore, Luke records Jesus using the phrase eight times and all eight of those occasions is a reference to the people to whom Jesus was speaking at that time. The same is true of Mark's report.

Conclusion: There are 14 different occasions when Jesus is recorded as having used the phrase "this generation" during his time on earth and they all mean the same thing.

That makes it incumbent upon the modern futurist to explain how one mention out of 14 is the one that is different from all the others AND s/he must do so exegetically, not post hoc.


So protest that begin with questions are worthless, especially if and when the question is "When did that X happen?" because whatever "X" might be it happened in "this generation." It did not happen in that generation sometime in the far, far distant future to people Jesus and the twelve never met. Making "this generation" into "that generation" is adding to the text of scripture, and doing so eisegetically, not exegetically. Asking about conditions occurring after the canon of scripture was closed is a post hoc argument (it's a logical fallacy) and it subjugates scripture to history, not the other way around. In other words, if scripture is authoritative, then scripture renders history, not the other way around. Both means of protest are inappropriate (but they are constantly used by end-times teachers). Now that you know them watch and listen for them and disregard anyone who uses them.


The way the prophecies should be read, interpreted if necessary, and understood is by first using other scripture. For example, in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 Jesus says at the time the events he's describing occur it will be like it was "in the days of Noah," and he describes how pairs of individuals will be working and one taken away and the other left behind. The modern futurist interprets that to mean the individuals taken away is a reference to the rapture. The pre-tribulationists further argue this is the rapture preceding the tribulation and God is sparing the Christians the suffering that will occur. The problem with those interpretations, however, is that in the days of Noah it was the ones who remained that continued to live on in a covenant relationship with God and the ones who were taken away were destroyed! They were not saved.

Luke 17:26-27
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Those taken away were destroyed.

Genesis 9:15
...I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Those taken away were destroyed. Peter explains how the survivors of the flood were brought safely by God through God's judgment.

1 Peter 3:20
.....who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

2 Peter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly...

...and the author of Hebrews states,

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.


Noah and his family members were spared. Noah was the heir of righteousness and he remained behind. The rest were destroyed, taken away by the flood. Therefore, the reference to "the days of Noah" is NOT about the rapture.

Read and re-read the Genesis 6-9 text and the passages mentioned above for yourself and see. Then, once what the scriptures state is understood, be on your guard for preachers who say Matthew 24 and Luke 17's mention of Noah is about the rapture. They are incorrect and their teaching on end times is not to be considered accurate.

However, it should not be necessary to read the account of the flood to understand their error because Matthew 24:9 and 24:29 say the disciples would be "handed over to tribulation," and they would see "a great tribulation." They would experience it. They would see it. They would not be raptured off the planet before it happened. Notice also verse 29 states "a" great tribulation, not "the" great tribulation. The text states it would be like nothing before or since but what, exactly, does that mean? If the "great tribulation" leaves more than eight people alive on the planet, then it is not worse than the flood . Some end-times teachers say one-third of the Jews will be killed in the tribulation. Aside from the antisemitic nature of that claim, let's look at the math. There are currently a little over 16 million Jews in the world. That's in the entire world, not just in Israel (there is less than 7 million in Israel). If one-third of 16 million Jews are killed during the great tribulation that would come to 5.3 million Jews.

That is one million fewer Jews than were killed during WWII .

So... either the teaching saying a third of the Jews is wrong, or a bunch more Jews have to be born so the population gets up to are 21 million (which is not likely to happen in your lifetime or mine), or a lot more than a third of the Jewish population is going to die.

Or, perhaps Jesus words, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will," is intentional hyperbole on his part. After all, he did say it would be better to cut off your hands and poke out your eyes if they cause you to sin.


The point is this: Read scripture exactly as written and on the occasion scripture requires additional interpretation then use other scripture, not post hoc arguments and extra-biblical doctrines.

The words, "this generation" mean this generation and not that generation. Regardless of how and what happened; it happened in "this generation." Read it exactly as written, accept it exactly as written, believe it exactly as written, form your end times view to exactly what is written exactly as written, and be vigilant for those asking you to read scripture differently than what it actually states.

 

[CrowCross]

You are mistaken.

When you say, "Nowhere is that said..." or "Nowhere is that reflected..." what you mean is "Nowhere is that reflected as my end-times view says it will happen."


In Matthew 23 and 24, Jesus stated the words "this generation" twice (vvs. 23:36 and 24:34). The conjugation of the Greek is near demonstrative, which means the two words CANNOT be translated to mean "that generation," or anything other than "this generation to whom I am now speaking." Now we know the things Jesus said to "this generation" in chapter 23 came true and they came true in the generation of the Pharisees to whom he was speaking at the time when he spoke those words. The temple was destroyed, and the Pharisees were wiped out. Those two events are facts of history. This places a burden on the person saying the "this generation of chapter 23 is different from the "this generation" of chapter 24. There is no burden on those saying the two are identical because that would be the natural, normal, ordinary reading of the narrative. It is the difference that has to be justified and explained.

This is especially the case given the fact the phrase "this generation" is used four times in Matthew's gospel (Mt. 11:16, 12:41, 23:36 and 24:34), and on all four occasion Jesus is talking about the generation to whom he is speaking at that moment. So the obligation to justify the protest is not on the reader who views all four mentions synonymously, but on the one who treats one verse differently than all the others. Furthermore, Luke records Jesus using the phrase eight times and all eight of those occasions is a reference to the people to whom Jesus was speaking at that time. The same is true of Mark's report.

Conclusion: There are 14 different occasions when Jesus is recorded as having used the phrase "this generation" during his time on earth and they all mean the same thing.

That makes it incumbent upon the modern futurist to explain how one mention out of 14 is the one that is different from all the others AND s/he must do so exegetically, not post hoc.


So protest that begin with questions are worthless, especially if and when the question is "When did that X happen?" because whatever "X" might be it happened in "this generation." It did not happen in that generation sometime in the far, far distant future to people Jesus and the twelve never met. Making "this generation" into "that generation" is adding to the text of scripture, and doing so eisegetically, not exegetically. Asking about conditions occurring after the canon of scripture was closed is a post hoc argument (it's a logical fallacy) and it subjugates scripture to history, not the other way around. In other words, if scripture is authoritative, then scripture renders history, not the other way around. Both means of protest are inappropriate (but they are constantly used by end-times teachers). Now that you know them watch and listen for them and disregard anyone who uses them.


The way the prophecies should be read, interpreted if necessary, and understood is by first using other scripture. For example, in Matthew 24 and Luke 17 Jesus says at the time the events he's describing occur it will be like it was "in the days of Noah," and he describes how pairs of individuals will be working and one taken away and the other left behind. The modern futurist interprets that to mean the individuals taken away is a reference to the rapture. The pre-tribulationists further argue this is the rapture preceding the tribulation and God is sparing the Christians the suffering that will occur. The problem with those interpretations, however, is that in the days of Noah it was the ones who remained that continued to live on in a covenant relationship with God and the ones who were taken away were destroyed! They were not saved.

Luke 17:26-27
And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

Those taken away were destroyed.

Genesis 9:15
...I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and never again shall the water become a flood to destroy all flesh.

Those taken away were destroyed. Peter explains how the survivors of the flood were brought safely by God through God's judgment.

1 Peter 3:20
.....who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

2 Peter 2:4-5
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly...

...and the author of Hebrews states,

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.


Noah and his family members were spared. Noah was the heir of righteousness and he remained behind. The rest were destroyed, taken away by the flood. Therefore, the reference to "the days of Noah" is NOT about the rapture.

Read and re-read the Genesis 6-9 text and the passages mentioned above for yourself and see. Then, once what the scriptures state is understood, be on your guard for preachers who say Matthew 24 and Luke 17's mention of Noah is about the rapture. They are incorrect and their teaching on end times is not to be considered accurate.

However, it should not be necessary to read the account of the flood to understand their error because Matthew 24:9 and 24:29 say the disciples would be "handed over to tribulation," and they would see "a great tribulation." They would experience it. They would see it. They would not be raptured off the planet before it happened. Notice also verse 29 states "a" great tribulation, not "the" great tribulation. The text states it would be like nothing before or since but what, exactly, does that mean? If the "great tribulation" leaves more than eight people alive on the planet, then it is not worse than the flood . Some end-times teachers say one-third of the Jews will be killed in the tribulation. Aside from the antisemitic nature of that claim, let's look at the math. There are currently a little over 16 million Jews in the world. That's in the entire world, not just in Israel (there is less than 7 million in Israel). If one-third of 16 million Jews are killed during the great tribulation that would come to 5.3 million Jews.

That is one million fewer Jews than were killed during WWII .

So... either the teaching saying a third of the Jews is wrong, or a bunch more Jews have to be born so the population gets up to are 21 million (which is not likely to happen in your lifetime or mine), or a lot more than a third of the Jewish population is going to die.

Or, perhaps Jesus words, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will," is intentional hyperbole on his part. After all, he did say it would be better to cut off your hands and poke out your eyes if they cause you to sin.


The point is this: Read scripture exactly as written and on the occasion scripture requires additional interpretation then use other scripture, not post hoc arguments and extra-biblical doctrines.

The words, "this generation" mean this generation and not that generation. Regardless of how and what happened; it happened in "this generation." Read it exactly as written, accept it exactly as written, believe it exactly as written, form your end times view to exactly what is written exactly as written, and be vigilant for those asking you to read scripture differently than what it actually states.

"Generations" can have several meanings...we do know Jesus didn't return during the generation that existed in the first century.

Now, there is what is called the fig tree generation.

 

[Josheb]

"Generations" can have several meanings...

No, it cannot. That's an argument used solely by futurists to justify their re-interpretation of the text. The near demonstrative conjugation prevents any and all interpretation of the phrase to mean anything other than what it actually states. Ask yourself: if the text means "this race, r this family, then why don't any of the English translations ever say, "this race," or "this family"? How is it every English translation for the last 500 years uniformly states, "this generation" but my futurist eschatology tells me to read, "that race" instead?*

we do know Jesus didn't return during the generation that existed in the first century.

No, we do not. The fact is Jesus comes many time in many ways for many reasons. He came in the form of the Spirit at Pentecost for the salvation of those in attendance and the future spread of the gospel. He came to Saul for his salvation on the Damascus Road. He came in judgment in 70 AD and flattened Jerusalem - exactly as he said would happen in Mattew 23:35 and 24:2.

Now, there is what is called the fig tree generation.

No such thing. You are speaking your end-times doctrine talk as if it is scripture when it is not. There's no such thing as a "fig-tree generation" in scripture. It's an invention, made up, a fiction, and the only place it exists is in the extra-biblical eschatology into which someone indoctrinated you. Not only is there no such thing as a "fig tree generation," but any notion of such a thing directly conflicts with the near demonstrative conjugation of the Greek "genea haute," and it would run into direct conflict with the fact Jesus told his disciples they would see it. He did not say, "When they see it...," or "When they hear it..." or "When that group of people living centuries from now...." He looked the Pharisees in the face and said, "I am sending you wise men, prophets, and scribes.... so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth..." and later that evening he looked his disciples in the face and said, "You will see...." and "You will hear..." and "You will be handed over to tribulation..."

He meant what he stated.

The only way any of it can be made far-distant-future is to ignore what is stated as stated. The audience affiliations all have to be ignored, changed into something other than what is stated. All the temporal markers have to be ignored and changed into something far distant when nothing in the narrative even remotely hints his disciples were going to have to wait multiple millennia to see, hear, or experience. The simplicity of the alternative has to be ignored because all Jesus had to say was, "Don't worry about it because it is not going to happen in your lifetime. Be concerned, instead, with what God has for you here and now." The entire witness of the New Testament's report of many of the cited events occurring in the NT era has to be ignored in favor of a post hoc interpretation based on extra-biblical secular sources that only futurism thinks have veracity.

You may, of course, protest all you like but my reply will always be the same: read the scripture and read it as written, exactly as stated without all the interpretations an eschatology adds. The fact is if you read the words, "this generation" exactly as written you'd come to completely different eschatological positions than the ones you now hold. The corollary being you hold views that are not based on the plain reading of the text. You hold views based solely upon post hoc eschatological views added to the text.

And let's not lose track of the original point.....

No where in the bible does it say Jesus came in that generation. The bible describes the rapture as well as the second coming and no where in history is that reflected.

The Bible does say the signs of Jesus' coming would occur in "this generation." In fact, there are 14 places in the gospels where various conditions or events are explicitly stated to fall upon "this generation." It does not matter how they happened, or how we might understand it nowadays, or whether or not that understanding has been lost to the centuries passing because THE ONE THING WE KNOW is that Jesus explicitly stated it would occur in "this generation," and not "that generation."


Read the text as written.














*I looked up 52 different translations and found only one that translated the "genea" as anything other than "generation." The 1902 translation by W. B. Godbey using the Tischendorf Siniac text says "race." He is the outlier both normatively and statistically. He was also dispensationalist. You should read his works when you have the time. He believed the millennium was dawning in his lifetime with the new century (the 20th century). He also believed, "The English language is grand and glorious, and eminently adapted to the colloquial and oratorical use of the whole world. It is destined to become universal, preparatory to the glorious millennial reign of Christ on the earth; but it is not adapted to· the revelation of God's saving truth, because it is a mongrel," and the Methodist Holiness movement would be the "nucleus of the Millennium Church," and if anyone spoke any profanity they would drop instantly into hell.

 

[Hobie]

Greetings Hobie,

I was interested in your perspective on the Battle of Armageddon, but I have a different understanding on many aspects. I have the view that the Seals, Trumpets and Vials are sequential, and we are already in the Vials period which started with the French Revolution and continues until the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. I consider that we are in the 6th Vial period already.
Revelation 16:12–16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
There are a number of stages mentioned above:
1. "the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up"
I consider that the drying up of "the great river Euphrates" represents the drying up of the Ottoman Empire, and the most significant event was when they were pushed out of the Holy Land in 1917, and this opened the way for the return of the Jews, and the ultimate establishment of the Nation of Israel in 1948.
2. It speaks of three centres, or three world powers "The Dragon", "The Beast" and "The False Prophet". I consider that although these Powers exist today the full development of what is stated here has not yet happened, but world events are strongly proceeding in that direction and could happen soon, especially as a result of the present Middle East conflict that will realign some of these Powers.
3. Verse 15 speaks of the return of Jesus to the household of faith.
4. Jesus then gathers the nations to the Battle of Armageddon.

You seem to link the Battle of Armageddon with the events of Revelation 17. I consider Revelation 17 depicts events AFTER the Battle of Armageddon.

Kind regards
Trevor

Yes, but the problem with that is that then it means nothing as it doesnt match up to the specific time given in the Bible as the day of the Lord. It also is a gathering of the saints for them to be taken to heaven which the Bible tells us every eye will see, and we see that it is a gathering of two differing classes of people as well as spirits of evil against good. There is a gathering and we see it is demon spirits which work miracles before the leaders of the earth and before the whole world and gather them for the battle against God.

Revelation 16:13-14
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

We see in the Bible what is a final separation of the righteous saints from the wicked, a gathering of the righteous for salvation and deliverance by Christ and His angels, and the gathering of the rebellious wicked to be slain when they fight at this battle. We see more description in Revelation 17 and 19.

Revelation 17:14
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Revelation 19:16
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

We see a similar theme in Zephaniah when God's people are assembled in the day of the Lord.

Zephaniah 2:3
1 Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired;
2 Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, before the day of the Lord's anger come upon you.
3 Seek ye the Lord, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the Lord's anger.

This battle of the day of the Lord is a development of Gods wrath on the rebellious wicked is presented under what is the symbolic name of Armageddon. The meaning of the word, as evident in the description of the battle itself, is not conclusive, except that all derivations of the word point to the general meaning of gathering or assembling. Let take a look..

Megiddo. This may be a possible reference to the ancient city of Megiddo with a Canaanite fortress at the foot of the Carmel range and was famous as a battlefield down through the centuries, and thus could be a place for "gathering" or "assembling" of armies for attack.

Mount of Megiddo. Here megiddo is assigned the meaning of "the place of God". Thus har (mountain) and megiddo ("place of God") would signify "mountain of the place of God," which makes it basically "the mount of the congregation," where God dwells in heaven.

We see it used in reference to where Lucifer, the devil, seeks to ascend or wants to gain, in Isaiah..

Isaiah 14:12-15
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

So we have evil spirits whose leader we know is Satan, assembling of the kings of the earth and the wicked, and as we see it is not necessarily a physical gathering of the armies of the world into one spot on earth, but a battle which involves them against the saints, and the Lord, the King of Kings, Jesus at the Second Coming.

Here is a good study to check out... https://www.whitehorsemedia.com/israel-and-armageddon-facts-vs-fiction/

 

[CrowCross]

No, it cannot. That's an argument used solely by futurists to justify their re-interpretation of the text.

As it should considering Revelations is future. How do I know that? Well, there a lot mentioned in Revelation that hasn't happened yet.

What's next? Rapture. Look up!!!

 

[3 Resurrections]

What's next? Rapture. Look up!!!

That rapture of the resurrected saints already took place back in AD 70 on that years' Pentecost Day. You and I don't need a rapture in the future for the last, third resurrection event, because the planet will be purged of all human evil forever after that point. There is nothing in Revelation unfulfilled except for the content of the Revelation 10:4 prophecies which were "sealed up" for future times. These are the only prophecies which could apply to us and our future. Everything else was unsealed and took place back in the first century, just as John was told about "the things which are about to be" in his near future (Revelation 1:19).

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Hobie,

Yes, but the problem with that is that then it means nothing as it doesnt match up to the specific time given in the Bible as the day of the Lord.

I suggest that what I have stated is very much aspects of the Day of the Lord and Revelation 16:12-16 needs to be understood by comparison with the many OT passages and detail that speak of the coming time of trouble. Revelation 17 is a time period after Revelation 16:12-16, not parallel with it.

It also is a gathering of the saints for them to be taken to heaven

I consider that the faithful will not be taken to heaven as they will rule with Jesus upon the earth from Jerusalem.

we see that it is a gathering of two differing classes of people

No, only one class, the Battle of Armageddon is a gathering of the armies of the nations.

the symbolic name of Armageddon. The meaning of the word, as evident in the description of the battle itself, is not conclusive, except that all derivations of the word point to the general meaning of gathering or assembling.

Another suggestion by a Hebrew scholar is Arema=a heap of sheaves gai==valley don=judgement, hence "a heap of sheaves in the valley for judgement or threshing" and this could be alluding to the following which is a parallel reference to the Battle of Armageddon:
Joel 3:9–14 (KJV): 9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision (mg concision or threshing): for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
This passage is a development after the return of the Jews to the Holy Land in 1948 and the recapture of Jerusalem in 1967 Joel 3:1-2.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

That rapture of the resurrected saints already took place back in AD 70 on that years' Pentecost Day.

That isn't biblical...so I must reject it like the the noble minded Berians teach us to search the scripture.

You and I don't need a rapture in the future for the last, third resurrection event, because the planet will be purged of all human evil forever after that point. There is nothing in Revelation unfulfilled

Not true. I've presented you with several verses that speak of great death...and that hasn't happened yet.

except for the content of the Revelation 10:4 prophecies which were "sealed up" for future times. These are the only prophecies which could apply to us and our future. Everything else was unsealed and took place back in the first century, just as John was told about "the things which are about to be" in his near future (Revelation 1:19).

Once again...Look up.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That isn't biblical...so I must reject it like the the noble minded Berians teach us to search the scripture.

Then you need to search the meaning of Daniel's 1,335th day, at the end of a countdown started by the two first-century events mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12, which both took place in the same season back in AD 66. Daniel expected a resurrection on that last 1,335th day. He got it. And that predicted resurrection at Christ's return on the 1,335th day fell on AD 70's Pentecost day.

Once again...Look up.

It might help to look up the definition of the phrase "about to be", as found in Revelation 1:19.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, it cannot. That's an argument used solely by futurists to justify their re-interpretation of the text. The near demonstrative conjugation prevents any and all interpretation of the phrase to mean anything other than what it actually states. Ask yourself: if the text means "this race, r this family, then why don't any of the English translations ever say, "this race," or "this family"? How is it every English translation for the last 500 years uniformly states, "this generation" but my futurist eschatology tells me to read, "that race" instead?*

Generation has to do with spiritual beginnings.(Two Genesis ) Not literal as in 20 years a family generation . In that way there are two generations that believers are to concern themselves with .

The generation of Adam natural converted mankind called the evil generation .And the generation of Christ born again believers

Luke 11:29And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they "seek a sign"; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

Matthew 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

The evil generation. The generation that demanded Jesus do a miracle and then when they saw it with thier own eyes then they will believe .
Wanting nothing to do with prophecy that again warns them "no signs" to wonder after the evil generation

Making Jesus into a circus seal. .

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Again believers have prophecy sealed with 7 seals til the end of time . Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after is still able to lie using the temporal corrupted things seen to deceive the nations

When the veil was rent (1st century reformation) the beginning of the last days began winding down. Many have added signs to wonder after rather than trusting prophecy .

Like waiting for literal bricks to fall 70 AD . Jesus had already declared the abomination of desolation desolate in Matthew 23. Is made desolate . . without effect no (Kings in Israel living in temples made with Human hands). the abomination of desolation. Some say 1948 as a sign to wonder after Some put their hope in 1914. . . all kind of lying signs to wonder after. When Jesus said none . . . not one .

 

[TMSO]

That rapture of the resurrected saints already took place back in AD 70 on that years' Pentecost Day. You and I don't need a rapture in the future for the last, third resurrection event, because the planet will be purged of all human evil forever after that point. There is nothing in Revelation unfulfilled except for the content of the Revelation 10:4 prophecies which were "sealed up" for future times. These are the only prophecies which could apply to us and our future. Everything else was unsealed and took place back in the first century, just as John was told about "the things which are about to be" in his near future (Revelation 1:19).

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

No one saw Jesus return in 70AD, but here it says that when Jesus comes to gather His elect (which you say was 70 AD) "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky." It has not happened yet. Peter tells us to beware of the scoffers who say that Jesus has already come.

 

[Mr GLee]

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from [r]the sky, and the powers of [s]the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His [t]elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

No one saw Jesus return in 70AD, but here it says that when Jesus comes to gather His elect (which you say was 70 AD) "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky." It has not happened yet. Peter tells us to beware of the scoffers who say that Jesus has already come.

Can't see God he is invisible.

Jesus with words from his Father made the abomination of desolation (Kings in Israel) desolate in Matthew 23. The mark of His word what he says it came to pass. Is desolate not will be in the future . We walk by faith, Christs in us the unseen eternal

When the timing of the first century reformation came according to the parable the veil was rent indicating the circumcision of our bloody husband Christ. The sky darkened .and the earth quaked to indicate the old testament saint graves were open. . they in there new born again spirits entered the city of Christ the new Jerusalem prepared for his bride the church.

All of the tribes nations of the world groaned .They had been deceived by the father of lies that God was a Jewish King of kings . There was no man sitting in the Holy of Holies. According to the parable in Revelation 20 Satan fell and could no longer deceive all the nations. that God is a Jewish man . the two discriminatory walls fell down that separate the Jewish woman from participating with the Jewish men .Discriminatory Men only club. . along with another high wall that separated the Jewish flesh from the gentile. A gospel explosion one like never before or ever again .The 15th century reformation a reflection

Revelation 20:3King James Version And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

He will be loosed to aid in building another temple made with human hands (abomination of desolation) On the last day under the Sun, Christ who dwells in sons of God will depart like a thief in the night the old courted generation up in smoke . . . . . . . the end of time.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No one saw Jesus return in 70AD, but here it says that when Jesus comes to gather His elect (which you say was 70 AD) "all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky." It has not happened yet. Peter tells us to beware of the scoffers who say that Jesus has already come.

You are mixing up Peter's warning and Paul's. The scoffers in Peter's days (written around the mid-60's) were saying "Where is the promise of His coming?", when Christ's coming was right around the corner in AD 70. Those Paul warned against were men such as Hymenaeus and Philetus who thought the resurrection was past already, and that there would not be another resurrection event. They were right in that the "First resurrection" of Christ the First-fruits and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints was past, but they were wrong that this was the only resurrection event that would ever occur. Again, the AD 70 bodily resurrection event at Christ's return was just around the corner for them.

The "tribes of the earth" were Israelite tribes mourning to see Christ returning to the Mount of Olives back in AD 70. Zechariah 12:11-13 lists some of the members of those tribes who would be mourning to see their Messiah coming, with themselves left behind as He gathered His resurrected saints to return to heaven with Him. These "tribes of the earth" no longer exist, and haven't since the genealogical records of the tribes were burned up with the temple archives by the end of AD 70.

 

[CrowCross]

Then you need to search the meaning of Daniel's 1,335th day, at the end of a countdown started by the two first-century events mentioned in Daniel 12:11-12, which both took place in the same season back in AD 66. Daniel expected a resurrection on that last 1,335th day. He got it. And that predicted resurrection at Christ's return on the 1,335th day fell on AD 70's Pentecost day.

It might help to look up the definition of the phrase "about to be", as found in Revelation 1:19.

The countdown began and stopped when Jesus was "cut off"....there is 7 years remaining on the "count down". That 7 years is referred to as the "tribulation". Currently we are in an unspecified portion of time many call the age of grace and the clock will restart at the rapture or shortly after the rapture.

Where are we now in biblical history? In the birth pains...and the pains are getting closer and closer together and increasing in intensity.

As I've said to you earlier...Look up. Luke 21:28 When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”....then the bible goes on to speak of 1948...29 Then Jesus told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees....The fig tree is Israel.

The christians who are not destined for wrath will not be part of the tribulation wrath....but will be taken out of the birth pangs at the resurrection and rapture of the church.

 

[Josheb]

As it should considering Revelations is future. How do I know that? Well, there a lot mentioned in Revelation that hasn't happened yet.

That is a post hoc argument. You have got to understand exactly how utterly irrational that argument is. It's a god-forsaken argument. If it is the only argument you have then you have no argument.

Just because C happened does not mean A or B caused C. The reverse is also true. Just because you cannot find C happening does not A and B have not occurred, especially when many others do find A, B, and C have happened - they simply did not happen the way your eschatology tells you the should happen. Much in Revelation has happened. Scripture says so whether or not futurist views of secular history agree or not.

What's next? Rapture. Look up!!!

When? Be specific. Don't shy away from the question. Tell me exactly when.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The countdown began and stopped when Jesus was "cut off"....there is 7 years remaining on the "count down"

You are mixing up time periods. Daniel's 70th week prophecy period is not mentioned in Daniel 12:11-13 in the calculation for the 1,335 days. God's periods of prophetic fulfillment are never given the "stopped clock" treatment. That is only a device used to work around what is inconvenient for one's own preconceived prophetic calendar view.

As I've said to you earlier...Look up. Luke 21:28 When these things begin to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”....then the bible goes on to speak of 1948...29 Then Jesus told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees....The fig tree is Israel.

And as I just wrote to TMSO, those "birth pangs" with the "beginning of sorrows" were going to be experienced by the Apostles being beaten in the synagogues, delivered up to the Sanhedrin councils, imprisoned, and some executed for their gospel witness. Birth pangs are followed soon after by the birth of a baby. In your viewpoint, those Apostles' "beginning of sorrows" and those "birth pangs" in the first century under their persecution by the Jewish religious leaders have been prolonged for 2,000 years and counting, and still no delivered "baby" yet. Makes no sense symbolically or otherwise.

And if Israel is the fig tree, Christ cursed the fig tree and said about it, "no man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever" (Mark 11:14). Not a good outcome for Israel predicted by that.

 

[CrowCross]

That is a post hoc argument. You have got to understand exactly how utterly irrational that argument is. It's a god-forsaken argument. If it is the only argument you have then you have no argument.

It's my only argument because it's the ONLY argument.

Jesus said we could look at the weather, feel the direction of the wind and know what's going to occur...the same is true for determine the times of the end....and all one has to do is look around at what's happening all over the face of the earth and see what the bible speaks of is about to happen. Prophecy has been and is currently being fulfilled....the beast system is almost built. The birth pangs are getting closer and increasing in intensity. Look up!!!

Just because C happened does not mean A or B caused C. The reverse is also true. Just because you cannot find C happening does not A and B have not occurred, especially when many others do find A, B, and C have happened - they simply did not happen the way your eschatology tells you the should happen. Much in Revelation has happened. Scripture says so whether or not futurist views of secular history agree or not.

Your "C" has not happened yet....

When? Be specific. Don't shy away from the question. Tell me exactly when.

As you know, no one knows the day or hour.....but looking at prophecy we can know we are in the day and now waiting for the hour. Look up!!!

 

[CrowCross]

You are mixing up time periods. Daniel's 70th week prophecy period is not mentioned in Daniel 12:11-13 in the calculation for the 1,335 days. God's periods of prophetic fulfillment are never given the "stopped clock" treatment. That is only a device used to work around what is inconvenient for one's own preconceived prophetic calendar view.


And as I just wrote to TMSO, those "birth pangs" with the "beginning of sorrows" were going to be experienced by the Apostles being beaten in the synagogues, delivered up to the Sanhedrin councils, imprisoned, and some executed for their gospel witness. Birth pangs are followed soon after by the birth of a baby. In your viewpoint, those Apostles' "beginning of sorrows" and those "birth pangs" in the first century under their persecution by the Jewish religious leaders have been prolonged for 2,000 years and counting, and still no delivered "baby" yet. Makes no sense symbolically or otherwise.

And if Israel is the fig tree, Christ cursed the fig tree and said about it, "no man eat fruit of thee hereafter forever" (Mark 11:14). Not a good outcome for Israel predicted by that.

Are you so blinded...and don't have ears to hear...that you can't see that the end times are here?
Can you not see the mark of the beast being developed? Can you not see what's happening right now in and to Israel? Israel will not have a good outcome unless God steps in and saves them?

The table is set....the table cloth, plates, cups, napkins, knives, forks and spoons are ready....all that's needed is the centerpiece.

 

[Josheb]

Generation has to do with spiritual beginnings.

Thank you for your time but I consider that, and other statements made, to be so profanely unscriptural, so egregiously irrational, and so intellectually bereft that they defy cogent discourse and anything else I may say in reply would only likely offend.