The Sea turns to Blood..

[Hobie]

When we were in grade school long ago, one of the teachers took us out to the ocean in his boat, and showed us a strange phenomenon, red tide. He told us this is what will happen when the sea turns to blood, I brushed it off at the time, but now the sea is turning red like blood on the coasts of Florida with red tide killing everything in the sea and the canals have filled with toxic blooms which are going out into the oceans to a level I have never seen in all my years....I am wondering...

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Red Tide bloom extends from Sanibel to Naples

Given the location of the bloom and how our coastline is laid out, you could start feeling the effects of this bloom as our southerly winds become more common.

www.fox4now.com

https://www.nbc-2.com/article/100-square-mile-red-tide-bloom-southwest-florida/63594696

MSN

 

[3 Resurrections]

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Hobie, you cannot consider ordinary marine life to be a "living soul". Oceanic life does not possess a soul. This prediction in Revelation 16:3 was referring to living humanity in this particular sea. It was not speaking of all oceanic life forms dying at one time by a "red tide" phenomenon.

This Revelation 16:3 prophecy was actually predicting a tragic episode of the Jewish / Roman war in the late AD 60's of all the sailor pirates in the city of Joppa dying in the Mediterranean Sea as they tried to escape Vespasian's attacking Romans by fleeing Joppa that night in their ships into the rocky bay. God brought a violent "black north wind" (as Josephus termed it) upon those sailors the next morning, which broke their ships and dashed a great many men to pieces against the jagged rocks, causing many to commit suicide rather than to drown or be taken by the Romans. Those few stragglers who managed to swim back to shore were slain by the Romans as they attempted to escape the storm. As Josephus recorded it, "...the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies; for the Romans came upon those that were carried to the shore and destroyed them; and the number of the bodies that were thus thrown out of the sea was four thousand and two hundred." (Wars 3.9.2-3)

 

[CrowCross]

Hobie, you cannot consider ordinary marine life to be a "living soul". Oceanic life does not possess a soul. This prediction in Revelation 16:3 was referring to living humanity in this particular sea. It was not speaking of all oceanic life forms dying at one time by a "red tide" phenomenon.

This Revelation 16:3 prophecy was actually predicting a tragic episode of the Jewish / Roman war in the late AD 60's of all the sailor pirates in the city of Joppa dying in the Mediterranean Sea as they tried to escape Vespasian's attacking Romans by fleeing Joppa that night in their ships into the rocky bay. God brought a violent "black north wind" (as Josephus termed it) upon those sailors the next morning, which broke their ships and dashed a great many men to pieces against the jagged rocks, causing many to commit suicide rather than to drown or be taken by the Romans. Those few stragglers who managed to swim back to shore were slain by the Romans as they attempted to escape the storm. As Josephus recorded it, "...the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies; for the Romans came upon those that were carried to the shore and destroyed them; and the number of the bodies that were thus thrown out of the sea was four thousand and two hundred." (Wars 3.9.2-3)

There are many times in history where the "sea" was tainted with human blood.

But, for that to be a fulfilling of Rev 16...tells us when:

2So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.........when did this happen?

Here's another...4 The third angel poured out his bowl into the rivers and the springs of water, and they became blood..........when did this happen?

Here's another.. 8 The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was allowed to scorch people with fire..........when did this happen?

Here's another.. 10 The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish .........when did this happen?

Here's another.. 12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east..........when did this happen?

Here's another.. 17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning, rumblings,<a href="Revelation 16 ESV" title="Or voices, or sounds" peals of thunder, and a great earthquake such as there had never been since man was on the earth, so great was that earthquake. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell, and God remembered Babylon the great, to make her drain the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found. 2 1And great hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, fell from heaven on people; and they cursed God for the plague of the hail, because the plague was so severe.t..........when did this happen?

Since when is it considered as proper biblical hermeneutics to cherry pick a verse fro Revelation while not looking at the other verses and present it a fulfilled prophecy?

 

[Hobie]

Hobie, you cannot consider ordinary marine life to be a "living soul". Oceanic life does not possess a soul. This prediction in Revelation 16:3 was referring to living humanity in this particular sea. It was not speaking of all oceanic life forms dying at one time by a "red tide" phenomenon.

This Revelation 16:3 prophecy was actually predicting a tragic episode of the Jewish / Roman war in the late AD 60's of all the sailor pirates in the city of Joppa dying in the Mediterranean Sea as they tried to escape Vespasian's attacking Romans by fleeing Joppa that night in their ships into the rocky bay. God brought a violent "black north wind" (as Josephus termed it) upon those sailors the next morning, which broke their ships and dashed a great many men to pieces against the jagged rocks, causing many to commit suicide rather than to drown or be taken by the Romans. Those few stragglers who managed to swim back to shore were slain by the Romans as they attempted to escape the storm. As Josephus recorded it, "...the sea was bloody a long way, and the maritime parts were full of dead bodies; for the Romans came upon those that were carried to the shore and destroyed them; and the number of the bodies that were thus thrown out of the sea was four thousand and two hundred." (Wars 3.9.2-3)

Not literal blood but red like blood, here is NIV..
Revelation 16:3
The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.

And even KJV means red like that of blood.

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Since when is it considered as proper biblical hermeneutics to cherry pick a verse fro Revelation while not looking at the other verses and present it a fulfilled prophecy?

There are first-century historical fulfillments for every one of the verse selections you have mentioned above. But to describe them all would take a post that would be too tedious in length for you to peruse in one sitting. And I doubt you would read it all.

Hobie has concentrated on one text selection, which is why I also concentrated my attention to this one text. It was the theme of the original post, which we are supposed to be addressing instead of going off-topic. For you to call this "cherry-picking" on my part is a charge that is slightly ridiculous.

Not literal blood but red like blood, here is NIV..
Revelation 16:3
The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.

It WAS literal, real blood, and that blood was like that of a dead man - not of a dead beast or of dead oceanic creatures.

 

[CrowCross]

There are first-century historical fulfillments for every one of the verse selections you have mentioned above.

I doubt it. But you can believe it if you like.

 

[Josheb]

When we were in grade school long ago, one of the teachers took us out to the ocean in his boat, and showed us a strange phenomenon, red tide. He told us this is what will happen when the sea turns to blood, I brushed it off at the time, but now the sea is turning red like blood on the coasts of Florida with red tide killing everything in the sea and the canals have filled with toxic blooms which are going out into the oceans to a level I have never seen in all my years....I am wondering...

Revelation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Red Tide bloom extends from Sanibel to Naples

Given the location of the bloom and how our coastline is laid out, you could start feeling the effects of this bloom as our southerly winds become more common.

www.fox4now.com

https://www.nbc-2.com/article/100-square-mile-red-tide-bloom-southwest-florida/63594696

MSN

Notice Revelation 16:3 states "sea," not "seas" . To which sea would the first century Christian have considered that a reference? The sea of Galilee? The Mediterranean? The Red? The Arabian? The Carribean?

 

[Mr GLee]

There are first-century historical fulfillments for every one of the verse selections you have mentioned above. But to describe them all would take a post that would be too tedious in length for you to peruse in one sitting. And I doubt you would read it all.

Hobie has concentrated on one text selection, which is why I also concentrated my attention to this one text. It was the theme of the original post, which we are supposed to be addressing instead of going off-topic. For you to call this "cherry-picking" on my part is a charge that is slightly ridiculous.


It WAS literal, real blood, and that blood was like that of a dead man - not of a dead beast or of dead oceanic creatures.

Many interesting parables that use the things seen the temporal like water or blood) things to pour out in order to give the unseen eternal gospel understanding.

The life of the flesh is in the blood, but that life is spiritual life of Christ not literal blood without the spirit essence. God breathed in life.

The lifeless spiritless blood must be poured out at the base of the sacrifice so that it can return to the field of clay . The demonstration of the unseen Holy Father shows Christ's spirit life was given to strengthen the Son. . finishing the work of the Dynamic Duo

Dust dry ground and water. The Holy Spirit the Potter's formula for blood

Blood or water interchangeable used in parables to represent the living water of the word the gospel doctrines that fall like rain from above

Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Exodus 4:9 And it shall come to pass, if they will not believe also these two signs, neither hearken unto thy voice, that thou shalt take of the water of the river, and pour it upon the dry land: and the water which thou takest out of the river shall become blood upon the dryland.

Both metaphors water and dry land mixed equal blood

The understnding of that parable is compared to the salvation of Isreal. He kept the dry land separated from the sea in order to form new spirit life . Blinding the enemy with the light of His gospel. (pillar of light). . miraculously showing the gospel way through the darkness to the believers.

When the Sun came up the enemy went to the bottom of the mix and drowned in the sea of salt (judgment)

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left

Another form of H20 sweat to show the suffering of the Holy Father and Son. The Holy Father pouring out his Spirt life in jeopardy of his own Holy Spirt life . As the Holy Father struck the Son he bruised his heel it crushed the head the serpent.

The beginning of the suffering the wage of sin beginning the garden of Gethsemane. Finishing that part of the promised three days and nights demonstration of the lamb who was slain form the foundation. The six days he did work. Then moving to the hill of skull another kind of demonstration. Three sperate demonstration of the Holy Father working as one the last the Tomb

Angel fake word coined in the 10th century changing the true meaning. Messenger or message Pony Express, Amazon ,Uber, Air Mail, Western Union, Carrier Pigeon. . . My wife's favored errand boy
LOL Me, Myself and I The Mr Glee Trinty

Luke 22:43-45And there appeared an angel (message from the Holy Father who worked with) unto him from heaven (Holy Father) , strengthening him. And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.(returneing to dust) ;And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,

The words "as it were blood". "As it were" denotes a parable is in view . Just like a thousand years as if it were a day represent unrevealed. No signs were given to wonder, wonder, wonder, marvel after as if true prophecy as it is written

It would seem. Why marvel after clay and not the Potter . The Potter says why wonder at all, we have the perfect .

Leave the wondering to Satan the king of lying signs to wonder as if they were prophecy. Switch wondering to off. Put an end to the accuser of the brethren 24'7 causing men to wonder and doubt. Deceiving mankind that doubt is lack of faith or the opposite of faith . Which it is not true but unbelief no faith power every one doubts when making a decision between two things. Satan has no way of knowing the difference

Not his sweat were great drops of blood falling down to the ground returned to dust. . but as if literal blood was the spirit essence of etranal life

12 times that loving law (pour out) is faithfully given in the old

Leviticus 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the Lord, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

 

[Hobie]

Notice Revelation 16:3 states "sea," not "seas" . To which sea would the first century Christian have considered that a reference? The sea of Galilee? The Mediterranean? The Red? The Arabian? The Carribean?

It would have been the Mediterranean, so even if its just that 'sea', it would be a devastating event and certainly noticed by the world. So need to keep your eyes and ears open as these events come..

 

[Mr GLee]

Notice Revelation 16:3 states "sea," not "seas" . To which sea would the first century Christian have considered that a reference? The sea of Galilee? The Mediterranean? The Red? The Arabian? The Carribean?

I would thing salty sea includes all. bodies of salt

Salt from sea = judgment

Believers = salt of earth

Matthew 5:13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. ..

.James 3:11-13;Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

 

[Josheb]

It would have been the Mediterranean, so even if its just that 'sea',

What in scripture makes you think Revelation 16: is a reference to the Mediterranean Sea? Upon what basis provided by the Revelation 16 text would the first century reader of the text think that is a reference to the Mediterranean Sea?
.

it would be a devastating event and certainly noticed by the world.

That is true, but the text of Revelation 16 states nothing about any devastating even that is noticed by the world. In point of fact, everything in the immediately surrounding text of verse 3 is local, not international.

What does logic tell you would happen if the Mediterranean Sea literally became lifeless (and blood red)?

What would have to happen for only the Mediterranean to become blood red and lifeless? What miracle, or what natural cause, would result in only that sea becoming lifeless and red?


And, as always, when you are discussing matters with me the answer, "I do not know" is acceptable as long as it is honest. When answering these questions, keep in mind the fact verses 3 through six state one sea and an unnumbered group of rivers and springs are all that are affected, and the judgment is explicitly attributed to the judged having shed the blood of the saints.

• What in scripture makes you think Revelation 16:3 is a reference to the Mediterranean Sea?
• What, specifically, in Revelation 16:3 passage would lead the first century reader to think that sea is the Mediterranean Sea?
• What does logic tell you would happen if the Mediterranean Sea literally became lifeless and blood red?
• What would have to happen for only the Mediterranean to become blood red and lifeless?
• What miracle, or what natural cause, would result in only that sea becoming lifeless and red?
• Are you aware of any sea that turned red and became lifeless in the first century?

.

 

[Josheb]

I would thing salty sea includes all. bodies of salt

That would contradict the use of the singular conjugation "sea." So, no, that is not an exegetical or logical possibility, and the thinking is , therefore, incorrect.

Notice there are a few mentions of the word "earth" (which could also be translated "land") and a few mentions of the word "world," but only one of those mentions explicitly specifies the whole world. Everything else is qualified in some way as a local event, not a global one.

 

[Josheb]

Salt from sea = judgment

Believers = salt of earth

In ancient times the people of Mediterranean coastal countries got their salt from the sea. In ancient Israel the two main salt sources were the Dead Sea and Jebel Usdum, otherwise known as Mt. Sodom, which lay on the western shore of the Dead Sea. There is no mention of salt in Rev. 16. Btw, the Sea of Galilee is fresh water. There are no freshwater oceans, but there are several freshwater seas on the planet, one of them is in Israel and another two are a short distance away.

 

[makesends]

And, as always, when you are discussing matters with me the answer, "I do not know" is acceptable as long as it is honest. When answering these questions, keep in mind the fact verses 3 through six state one sea and an unnumbered group of rivers and springs are all that are affected, and the judgment is explicitly attributed to the judged having shed the blood of the saints.

• What in scripture makes you think Revelation 16:3 is a reference to the Mediterranean Sea?
• What, specifically, in Revelation 16:3 passage would lead the first century reader to think that sea is the Mediterranean Sea?
• What does logic tell you would happen if the Mediterranean Sea literally became lifeless and blood red?
• What would have to happen for only the Mediterranean to become blood red and lifeless?
• What miracle, or what natural cause, would result in only that sea becoming lifeless and red?
• Are you aware of any sea that turned red and became lifeless in the first century?

.

Not to take sides here, but, (I think), the particular use of "the sea" to mean only one, (while you may be right that it is referring to only one), is not necessarily grammatically warranted, even in English —(I don't know the Greek well enough to say)— but language in general shows such things don't necessarily have to be specific.

Particularly when in symbolic language, "the sea" can be a categorical reference, I think. But, even if the account was literally (according to our temporal understanding, non-symbolic) it can still be a general, a categorical, reference.

 

[Mr GLee]

That would contradict the use of the singular conjugation "sea." So, no, that is not an exegetical or logical possibility, and the thinking is , therefore, incorrect.

Notice there are a few mentions of the word "earth" (which could also be translated "land") and a few mentions of the word "world," but only one of those mentions explicitly specifies the whole world. Everything else is qualified in some way as a local event, not a global one.

Thanks

It would not include Seas without salt.

Salt is the instrument of judgment whether it is found in water of on dry land

Every sacrifice used salt to indicate the letter of the word (death)"Thou shall not," or you are dead.

Leviticus 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

Numbers 18:19 All the heave offerings of the holy things, which the children of Israel offer unto the Lord, have I given thee, and thy sons and thy daughters with thee, by a statute for ever: it is a covenant of salt for ever before the Lord unto thee and to thy seed with thee.

Colossians 4:6 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

.James 3:11-13;Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Mathew uses salt to represent those sent out with the gospel of salted mercy seasoned with grace.

Matthew 5:13-16 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house

 

[Josheb]

Not to take sides here, but, (I think), the particular use of "the sea" to mean only one, (while you may be right that it is referring to only one), is not necessarily grammatically warranted, even in English —(I don't know the Greek well enough to say)— but language in general shows such things don't necessarily have to be specific.

Particularly when in symbolic language, "the sea" can be a categorical reference, I think. But, even if the account was literally (according to our temporal understanding, non-symbolic) it can still be a general, a categorical, reference.

Five thoughts:

1. You're literarily 100% correct. The word "sea" could connotatively mean all the oceans and seas of a larger locale or the world collectively. Remember: the op asserts Revelation 16:3 may be about the phenomenon we call red tide.
2. My wish is that the modern futurists think through these things and, by doing so, come up with their own answers. I do not mind you (or anyone else adding to the conversation but I'd prefer those asked the questions be the ones answering the questions because my underlying goal is to have them either practice or learn sound exegesis in this thread right here and now (rather than inventing nonsense or posting eisegetic non-answers). You, me, or someone else giving them the answers does not help anyone in that regard (which brings me to my third point...).
3. What is the scriptural basis for viewing the singular "sea" to be representative of all seas, either globally or locally? If we were to survey the use of "sea" in the NT, all 91 mentions* of "sea" (Gk. = thalasses) and the conjugation of Revelation 16:3 (thalassan), would we find the literary understanding applies as a precedent that can be applied to Revelation 16:3? Revelation was not written in English. In the NT there are a small handful of the word "sea" used in an ambiguous way (such as Matthew 18:6) but the vast majority of them are about one sea in particular, the Sea of Galilee. That is the precedent established by scripture itself in the New Testament.
4. The emphasis is on literalness. The modern futurist hermeneutic (especially that of Dispensational Premillennialism explicitly stipulates scripture, especially prophecy must be read literally. This comes up aplenty whenever discussing end times with modern futurists because they do not practice what they teach with any consistency. If we are to practice their rules then we stick to the "sea" singular simply because that is what is plainly, specifically, explicitly stated and their hermeneutic requires a literal reading. You and I subscribe to a different hermeneutic, one that considers all forms of literal and literary writing and reading. It's not my job or yours to prove the op. It's @Hobie's job (and those who support the op's position).
5. Most, if not all, of these concerns also apply to @atpollard's recent op on Revelation being written for the original readers, as well as most other threads in this Eschatology - End Times and Prophecy board. It is very difficult to discuss end times and prophecy with modern futurists because of these problems (and the denial thereof).

Hobie (nor any other modern futurist) will not change his viewpoint because you or I say so, but if he examines scripture for himself as objectively and exegetically as he can (without the influence of modern futurist teachers constantly interfering in his mind with that objective) then he just might come to a position all on his own different than that which was invented in the 19th century . In all likelihood the conversation will veer off into many tangents as the modern futurists insert various other verses that have absolutely nothing to do with Revelation 16:3, the discussion (with all requests to stick to the verse specified) will become frustrating because the errors will grow increasingly apparent, and I'll be told I'm being put on ignore. My hope to the contrary springs eternal . We should be able to agree.... practicing sound exegesis transcends all doctrinal viewpoints (but maybe I'm wrong about that). At any rate, I'd like Hobie to answer the questions asked as best he can because they are valid and op-relevant.

If taken exactly as written, verses 3 through six state one sea and an unnumbered group of rivers and springs are all that are affected, and the judgment is explicitly attributed to the judged having shed the blood of the saints.

• What in scripture makes you think Revelation 16:3 is a reference to the Mediterranean Sea?
• What, specifically, in Revelation 16:3 passage would lead the first century reader to think that sea is the Mediterranean Sea?
• What does logic tell you would happen if the Mediterranean Sea literally became lifeless and blood red?
• What would have to happen for only the Mediterranean to become blood red and lifeless?
• What miracle, or what natural cause, would result in only the Mediterranean Sea becoming lifeless and red?
• Are you aware of any sea that turned red and became lifeless in the first century?

* In English translations the word "sea" is found 101 times in the NT, but ten of them are not "thalassan."
.

 

[Mr GLee]

The emphasize in on salt manufactured by the Sea, the judgment of Chrsit .


The sea or grave gave up the dead

 

[Josheb]

The emphasize in on salt manufactured by the Sea, the judgment of Chrsit .

The sea or grave gave up the dead

Not all mentions of sea, or salt, are equal. Context decides the matter and scripture cannot be generalized to say sea salt is representative of good things and land salt representative of good things.

 

[Mr GLee]

Not all mentions of sea, or salt, are equal. Context decides the matter and scripture cannot be generalized to say sea salt is representative of good things and land salt representative of good things.

Hi thanks for the reply

yes context

Salt is the word that denotes judgment whether it is a pillar like with Lot's wife or an ocean full .

every judgment salted with salt is needed when sharing the gospel, the other side universalism no salt no judgment

Salt is used in every Sacrifice to denote judgment,. Some teach salt preserves; it would seem to protect their own faith or belief system .

Whether it does or not preserve is not the issue. Bitter salt water used 9 times

Numbers 5:23And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water

James 3:10 -14 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be.; Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

A few others.

Matthew 5:13Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

Mark 9:49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Mark 9:50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

Yeast as power to rise is used in two way?