The Battle of Armageddon

[Josheb]

It's my only argument because it's the ONLY argument.

Okay. I don't know how to make this clear to you but it is an irrational argument. It is a fallacious argument, a logical fallacy. Because it is illogical, irrational, and theologically untenable it is not an argument at all. It is just noise.

Jesus said we could look at the weather, feel the direction of the wind and know what's going to occur...the same is true for determine the times of the end....and all one has to do is look around at what's happening all over the face of the earth and see what the bible speaks of is about to happen.

No, he did not say "we" could do so. He said his disciples - the ones to whom he was speaking that evening on the mount of olives - and he said they could look, they would see, they would hear. He said nothing about you or me. You've now broached another error in your eisegesis, one I tried to bring to your attention in my previous post in hopes you would not commit it.

You have ignored the audience affiliators of the text.

The "you" in Matthew 24 is the disciples to whom he was speaking, not some group of undefined people living 20 or more centuries later.

Matthew 24:4-16
And Jesus answered and said to them, "See to it that no one misleads you. For many will come in m name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will mislead many. You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many. Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved. This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore, when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains."

The "you" is his disciples sitting within that evening outside of Jerusalem.

Prophecy has been and is currently being fulfilled....the beast system is almost built. The birth pangs are getting closer and increasing in intensity. Look up!!!

Your "C" has not happened yet....

As you know, no one knows the day or hour.....but looking at prophecy we can know we are in the day and now waiting for the hour. Look up!!!

What I know is that preachers and teachers and their learners have been making these sort of claims for the last 200 years and not a single one of them has ever been correct. You are just one more in a very long line of false prognosticators who ignore the explicit statements, the audience affiliations, the temporal markers, and the contexts of what is written in scripture. I know you are going to die never having seen what you tell everyone will happen, quite possibly regret having wasted so much time on falsehood, and having to account for it before God.

There is a more scriptural and more fruit-bearing alternative. It begins with reading scripture exactly as written and not filtered through an extra-biblical end-times doctrine.

 

[Mr GLee]

Thank you for your time but I consider that, and other statements made, to be so profanely unscriptural, so egregiously irrational, and so intellectually bereft that they defy cogent discourse and anything else I may say in reply would only likely offend.

I would offer the same. What you offered makes no biblical sense. Remember no sign as a date, last day was given to wonder after . Just the usual sign of the times history repeating itself Christian's have prophecy seals with 7 seals not lying signs

Can we start there?

 

[CrowCross]

There is a more scriptural and more fruit-bearing alternative. It begins with reading scripture exactly as written and not filtered through an extra-biblical end-times doctrine.

The bible in several places speaks of the Israels returning...as written. It's end time doctrine...but NOT extra biblical.

If you were a 1 century Jew you would have missed Isaiah 53.

 

[CrowCross]

What I know is that preachers and teachers and their learners have been making these sort of claims for the last 200 years and not a single one of them has ever been correct.

Of course they would be incorrect....there was no Israel. That didn't happen until the fig tree sprouted in 1948.

 

[Josheb]

I would offer the same. What you offered makes no biblical sense. Remember no sign as a date, last day was given to wonder after . Just the usual sign of the times history repeating itself Christian's have prophecy seals with 7 seals not lying signs

Can we start there?

No, we cannot start there because none of it is scriptural and none of it is rational. Every single word of that post is forsaken of God, scripture, and logic. The place to start is with scripture read exactly as written and properly exegeted using scripture first to understand scripture and you and I are not going to agree because I am going to read Revelation 1:1-3 exactly as written with the normal meaning of the words when said in ordinary everyday usage and compared with other scripture using the same words. I am going to do the exact same with Rev. 1:19. Everything written thereafter, including the mention of harmagedon, will be read in that context unless the text itself states otherwise.

 

[Josheb]

Of course they would be incorrect....there was no Israel. That didn't happen until the fig tree sprouted in 1948.

The fig tree has not sprouted and every single prognostication of every single futurist prognostication since 1948 has also been wrong. ALL of the false teachers. 100% fail rate. And you are just like them.

I believe I broached the problem of Israel restored with you previously and offered to walk you through the scriptures and was refused.

Modern day Israel is NOT Israel of the Bible restored. The modern country does not fulfill the prophecies. God promised to restore covenant Israel, not just any country populated with Jews with the label "Israel" slapped on it. The notion Israel is now restored due to prophecy is just another example godless falsehood propagated by futurists ignoring what scripture explicitly states, ignoring its audience affiliation, ignoring its text-provided temporal markers and contexts, and asserting positions based on extra-biblical doctrines not scripture read as written.

There is no mention of a "fig tree generation" anywhere in scripture. It is an invention of imagination and even if it were correct, modern Israel is not it.

Of course they would be incorrect....there was no Israel. That didn't happen until the fig tree sprouted in 1948.

The point is being missed and avoided. The point is you are in that line of false prognosticators subsequent to 1948, and not doing anything today to re-examine that condition even though the opportunity has availed itself.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Can you not see the mark of the beast being developed?

No, this mark giving honor to the Rev. 13 Sea Beast is not a current threat. You have mistaken a mark imposed by the Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast on everyone coming to worship at the temple (that only lasted from 19 BC until AD 66) for something that might be a growing threat at present. It's not.

The Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its varying features of lion, bear, and leopard was identified as beginning all the way back in Nebuchadnezzar's days - the first "lion" kingdom. That means the Revelation 13 Sea Beast was 666 years old when John was writing Revelation. Anyone with any wisdom back in the first century could calculate that amount of 666 years backward in time and identify this Sea Beast for what it was - four ancient pagan empires that had been in control of the nation of Israel - Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman.

Remember, Satan gave his throne in the city of Pergamos to that Sea Beast (Revelation 13:2 cp Revelation 2:13). This seat of Satan in Pergamos (the Pergamos altar in the temple of Zeus) was a gift to the Roman Republic back in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus III who had no heir to whom he could pass his Pergamum kingdom. In his will, King Attalus bequeathed his entire kingdom, along with that altar in the capital city (which was the Pergamos throne of Satan), to his Roman ally. That identifies the ancient Rev. 13 Sea Beast as then having its last Roman phase in the days of John writing Revelation.

The Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast of the Jewish religious leadership required that anyone at all worshipping in the temple use their minted copy of the Tyrian shekel with its abominable images and inscriptions giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast before they could purchase or sell any sacrificial items for temple worship. That Tyrian shekel mark ceased to be required when the Zealot rebellion against Rome was launched in AD 66.

You are quivering with fear over a mark which has had no significance at all since AD 66.

 

[CrowCross]

The fig tree has not sprouted and every single prognostication of every single futurist prognostication since 1948 has also been wrong. ALL of the false teachers. 100% fail rate. And you are just like them.

I believe I broached the problem of Israel restored with you previously and offered to walk you through the scriptures and was refused.

Modern day Israel is NOT Israel of the Bible restored. The modern country does not fulfill the prophecies. God promised to restore covenant Israel, not just any country populated with Jews with the label "Israel" slapped on it. The notion Israel is now restored due to prophecy is just another example godless falsehood propagated by futurists ignoring what scripture explicitly states, ignoring its audience affiliation, ignoring its text-provided temporal markers and contexts, and asserting positions based on extra-biblical doctrines not scripture read as written.

There is no mention of a "fig tree generation" anywhere in scripture. It is an invention of imagination and even if it were correct, modern Israel is not it.

The point is being missed and avoided. The point is you are in that line of false prognosticators subsequent to 1948, and not doing anything today to re-examine that condition even though the opportunity has availed itself.

Turn on your TV.

 

[CrowCross]

No, this mark giving honor to the Rev. 13 Sea Beast is not a current threat. You have mistaken a mark imposed by the Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast on everyone coming to worship at the temple (that only lasted from 19 BC until AD 66) for something that might be a growing threat at present. It's not.

The Rev. 13 Sea Beast with its varying features of lion, bear, and leopard was identified as beginning all the way back in Nebuchadnezzar's days - the first "lion" kingdom. That means the Revelation 13 Sea Beast was 666 years old when John was writing Revelation. Anyone with any wisdom back in the first century could calculate that amount of 666 years backward in time and identify this Sea Beast for what it was - four ancient pagan empires that had been in control of the nation of Israel - Babylonian, Medo-Persian, Greek, and Roman.

Remember, Satan gave his throne in the city of Pergamos to that Sea Beast (Revelation 13:2 cp Revelation 2:13). This seat of Satan in Pergamos (the Pergamos altar in the temple of Zeus) was a gift to the Roman Republic back in 133 BC by the dying King Attalus III who had no heir to whom he could pass his Pergamum kingdom. In his will, King Attalus bequeathed his entire kingdom, along with that altar in the capital city (which was the Pergamos throne of Satan), to his Roman ally. That identifies the ancient Rev. 13 Sea Beast as then having its last Roman phase in the days of John writing Revelation.

The Rev. 13 Judean Land Beast of the Jewish religious leadership required that anyone at all worshipping in the temple use their minted copy of the Tyrian shekel with its abominable images and inscriptions giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast before they could purchase or sell any sacrificial items for temple worship. That Tyrian shekel mark ceased to be required when the Zealot rebellion against Rome was launched in AD 66.

You are quivering with fear over a mark which has had no significance at all since AD 66.

Have you not heard of the "great reset"....do you know what it is?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Have you not heard of the "great reset"....do you know what it is?

It's a phrase that appears nowhere in scripture, and therefore has no bearing on this discussion.

 

[Josheb]

Turn on your TV.

I prefer my Bible.

As I said, futurist prognosticator after prognosticator for the last 200 years, including all those prognosticating after 1948 have all failed to make one single prognostication and you are in a long line of those who have failed to correctly predict ANYTHING. You think, "Turn on your tv" is evidence or proof of something scripturally eschatological but it is not. It is a logical fallacy that has absolutely nothing to do with scripture.


You and I, if you are watching, are about to watch the death of futurism because a "generation" is claimed to be anywhere from 40 years to 80 years. That is why so many dispensationalist teachers like Smith, Walvoord, Lindsay, LaHaye, etc. predicted the rapture, Armageddon, and the return of Christ to occur in 1988. They were all wrong. As a consequence, they adjusted the dates and moved away from date-setting to timeframe-setting. They hid behind, "no one will know the day or hour," even though Jesus explicitly stated it would occur in "this generation." They ALL failed to put the two together to understand on one in this generation would know the day or hour, but it would, nonetheless, occur in this generation - the generation of the "you" to whom he was speaking the evening he said those words. Nowadays, because of their failure to properly exegete the text of scripture they are running out of time. It's been 75 years since 1948, so there's only 5 years left in a biblical generation. According to global statistics there is less than 1/4 million people older than 75 in the entire world. It won't be long before they are all dead and one of two things will happen: 1) the prognosticators will no longer be able to appeal to the "fig tree generation, or 2) they will move the start date and start a new countdown. We're already seeing the latter with some marking the "fig tree generation" beginning in 1967 when Israel regained possession of Jerusalem. When the generation born in 1967 expires without a rapture, Armageddon, or the return of Christ they'll discard 1967 and start with another later date.

It is dishonest.


I used to believe them. I used to be just like you. I used to repeat the same prognostications until I learned they were ALL wrong and had been wrong for more than a century, I used to repeat the same prognostications until I learned to read scripture exactly as written and not as the mistaken (some of them are outright lying - they know better) futurists taught me to read it. I was, as you are now, one in a long, long line of false prognosticators who have never once been correct, all of whom died, or will die without ever seeing a single prognostication come true, having misled many, resurrected to stand before God account for the failures committed in His name.

It is a very good thing we know Jesus .

Have you ever actually read Revelation 16? Read it now. When you're done reading it go re-read this opening post and the one after it. Then go back and re-read Rev. 16 and see if you can find the words, "army," "armies," or "battle." The first two do not exist anywhere in the entire chapter. There are only three mentions of "armies" in the entire book of Revelation , one of them is armies in heaven (not earth) and noone of them are in chapter 16! There's only one mention of "battle," in chapter 16 and it states nothing about any battle actually occurring.

Revelation 16:14 KJV
For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Look again at the chapter and see if you can find any mention of Jesus coming to earth. I know it will take a few minutes but read the next chapter and the next. Read from Revelation 16:1 all the way through chapter 20 and see if you can find a single explicit statement in any of those chapters stating Jesus has physically come to earth. Those five chapters take us from the pouring out of the bowls to the final judgment and Jesus has not once been stated to be physically living on earth.

Read it. Verify what I just said. Then go look at the Posts #1 and 2 and see how many errors are in those two posts. Count a how many times claims are made that are not actually anywhere to be found in Revelation 16. These kinds of mistakes are rampant in modern futurism. They may vary from prognosticator to prognosticator but that's just variations on the common theme, and the common theme is error.


I'm not sure I asked this question before so I'm going to ask it now:

Do you think it is appropriate to take one mention of one thing found only in one verse in only one chapter in only one book and make an entire doctrine around it?


If not, then why do it with "harmagedon"?


My bad, I that's two questions .

 

[CrowCross]

It's a phrase that appears nowhere in scripture, and therefore has no bearing on this discussion.

This thread in the prophecy end times forum.....The Battle of Armageddon...is a strong candidate for ushering in the "Great Reset"....

Thing is, you argue about something you don't know of....and are throwing away the information.

 

[CrowCross]

As I said, futurist prognosticator after prognosticator for the last 200 years, including all those prognosticating after 1948 have all failed to make one single prognostication and you are in a long line of those who have failed to correctly predict ANYTHING.

Perhaps...but you preterist continue to fail to show where much of Rev has happened. Want some examples?

Rev 6:8Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.....this hasn't happened yet.
Revs 8:7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 8:8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed....this hasn't happened yet.
11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 9:15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 9:18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths......this hasn't happened yet.

Show me where this happened around 70AD
Need more?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Perhaps...but you preterist continue to fail to show where much of Rev has happened. Want some examples?

Rev 6:8Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.....this hasn't happened yet.
Revs 8:7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 8:8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed....this hasn't happened yet.
11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 9:15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 9:18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths......this hasn't happened yet.

All we need to do is look at how John told us to interpret Revelation, according to the rule set out in the introduction and the conclusion. Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 announced that all things prophetically future that were revealed in the book were then "at hand" in John's days. Your extra-large font does nothing to contradict John's rule for interpreting his visions.

If we spent all day long recounting for you the historical fulfillment of these events, (which I have done before for others, and could do again here if I weren't bogged down with workroom orders today), you would only scoff and through it in the trash, as so many others such as yourself have done before.

You want to interpret Revelation without paying attention to the time-relevant terms John used. It's a problem that you have created for yourself.

 

[Josheb]

Perhaps...but you preterist continue to fail to show where much of Rev has happened.

No, we do not. We show you but it makes no difference because there's no genuine interest in having the question answered.

Want some examples?

Not really because the protest is a post hoc fallacy!

Rev 6:8Then I looked and saw a pale green horse. Its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed close behind. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth.....this hasn't happened yet.
Revs 8:7Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were hurled down upon the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 8:8Then the second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned to blood, 9a third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed....this hasn't happened yet.
11The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter like wormwood oil, and many people died from the bitter waters....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 9:15So the four angels who had been prepared for this hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind....this hasn't happened yet.

Rev 9:18A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke, and sulfur that proceeded from their mouths......this hasn't happened yet.

Yes, most of it has already happened. It simply has not happened the way the modern futurist imagines it will happen.

Let me put it another way: Scripture has happened. Modern futurism has not. Stop reading scripture as a 21st century Christian adherent to futurism and try reading the scripture as a first century Christian expecting the events to happen quickly because the time was then near. Try reading the scripture as if you knew what John had seen, understood what John experiencing, and what was going to come (soon) afterwards.

Furthermore, it does not matter how many times "When did X happen?" or "X hasn't happened yet!" are posted that protest is always a post hoc fallacy. You could post it 100 times and it would still be a post hoc error. If the scripture states something happened in their generation and it happened quickly because the time was then near, then that is when it happened. Every time I am asked, "When did X happen?" I will be standing firmly on what is explicitly stated in scripture and the answer is always, "Back then when the time was near because that is what the scripture states, and I base my eschatology on scripture, not tv."

Show me where this happened around 70AD

I did not say it happened around 70 AD, did I?

Even when trying to have an intelligent conversation with futurists I cannot get them to shake their prejudices. If you are not going to read the scriptures as written, why should I expect my posts to be read as written.

Need more?

I'm not the one in need here and nothing in Post 53 came close to meeting any supposed need on my part because little in that post is correct. It is all a post hoc fallacy!

Notice I have asked questions and they all sit idly in the thread unanswered. I have recommended the scriptures be examined for some specific claims being asserted in this thread and none of that content has been addressed. Everything I have asked or suggested remains ignored and now I am expected to suddenly do your bidding when everything I have posted so far had been denied or ignored.

Show me where this happened around 70AD

Would it make any difference? Or is this question asked with a prejudiced incredulity feigning genuine interest?


If I showed how the events just posted did occur prior to, during, or shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem would you suddenly discard everything you believe about end times and accept the proof I provide? If not, then the question is wasting my time and yours because you've already decided anything and everything I post won't change your mind and can't change your mind. I asked you if you were interested in walking through the scriptures WITH me to examine the restoration of Israel as scripture describes it and the offer was denied. I asked a second time, and the offer was ignored. Now suddenly I am supposed to think you are genuinely asking me for information with a sincere interest to learn and authentically change as the evidence directs.

Is that what you intend?

 

[CrowCross]

All we need to do is look at how John told us to interpret Revelation, according to the rule set out in the introduction and the conclusion. Revelation 1:3 and Revelation 22:10 announced that all things prophetically future that were revealed in the book were then "at hand" in John's days. Your extra-large font does nothing to contradict John's rule for interpreting his visions.

If we spent all day long recounting for you the historical fulfillment of these events, (which I have done before for others, and could do again here if I weren't bogged down with workroom orders today), you would only scoff and through it in the trash, as so many others such as yourself have done before.

You want to interpret Revelation without paying attention to the time-relevant terms John used. It's a problem that you have created for yourself.

Once again you are show to be defenseless...what I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

 

[CrowCross]

No, we do not. We show you but it makes no difference because there's no genuine interest in having the question answered.

Not really because the protest is a post hoc fallacy!

Yes, most of it has already happened. It simply has not happened the way the modern futurist imagines it will happen.

Let me put it another way: Scripture has happened. Modern futurism has not. Stop reading scripture as a 21st century Christian adherent to futurism and try reading the scripture as a first century Christian expecting the events to happen quickly because the time was then near. Try reading the scripture as if you knew what John had seen, understood what John experiencing, and what was going to come (soon) afterwards.

Furthermore, it does not matter how many times "When did X happen?" or "X hasn't happened yet!" are posted that protest is always a post hoc fallacy. You could post it 100 times and it would still be a post hoc error. If the scripture states something happened in their generation and it happened quickly because the time was then near, then that is when it happened. Every time I am asked, "When did X happen?" I will be standing firmly on what is explicitly stated in scripture and the answer is always, "Back then when the time was near because that is what the scripture states, and I base my eschatology on scripture, not tv."

I did not say it happened around 70 AD, did I?

Even when trying to have an intelligent conversation with futurists I cannot get them to shake their prejudices. If you are not going to read the scriptures as written, why should I expect my posts to be read as written.

I'm not the one in need here and nothing in Post 53 came close to meeting any supposed need on my part because little in that post is correct. It is all a post hoc fallacy!

Notice I have asked questions and they all sit idly in the thread unanswered. I have recommended the scriptures be examined for some specific claims being asserted in this thread and none of that content has been addressed. Everything I have asked or suggested remains ignored and now I am expected to suddenly do your bidding when everything I have posted so far had been denied or ignored.

Would it make any difference? Or is this question asked with a prejudiced incredulity feigning genuine interest?


If I showed how the events just posted did occur prior to, during, or shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem would you suddenly discard everything you believe about end times and accept the proof I provide? If not, then the question is wasting my time and yours because you've already decided anything and everything I post won't change your mind and can't change your mind. I asked you if you were interested in walking through the scriptures WITH me to examine the restoration of Israel as scripture describes it and the offer was denied. I asked a second time, and the offer was ignored. Now suddenly I am supposed to think you are genuinely asking me for information with a sincere interest to learn and authentically change as the evidence directs.

Is that what you intend?

Once again you too have been show to be defenseless...what I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

 

[Josheb]

Once again you too have been show to be defenseless...what I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

I haven't been shown anything other than a fallacious post hoc argument imagined to prove something when it is fallacious from start to finish.

Once again you too have been show to be defenseless...what I presented from Revelation...has never happened in the past.

And now we can add argumentum ad nauseam to the list of fallacies you have employed.

Show me where this happened around 70AD.

Gladly, if it will make any difference. Will it? Will it make any difference when I answer every single one "When did X happen?" asked? Will it?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Gladly, if it will make any difference. Will it? Will it make any difference when I answer every single one "When did X happen?" asked? Will it?

I don't mean to be negative Josheb, but it wouldn't make a difference even if you wrote a magnum opus on all the historical proofs. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

 

[Josheb]

I don't mean to be negative Josheb, but it wouldn't make a difference even if you wrote a magnum opus on all the historical proofs. "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

Probably. Does not hurt to ask and whatever the answer it is win-win for me because if he says he's genuinely interest and willing to change then the ensuing exchange bears the fruit of scripture-driven change. If the answer is "No," then the record shows an ideological bondage to extra-biblical doctrine that, hopefully, will bear witness to the lurkers. If the answer is "Yes," and I do manage an impeccable case but no change occurs then hypocrisy is the testimony and, again, perhaps the lurkers will benefit. The moment the question "When....?" was asked it binds the asker, not the preterist, and that always seems to escape them.

But let's face it, with the red herrings, straw men, ad hominem, post hocs, ad nauseam and blatant silence when scripture was offered the testimony was already well established.

Futurists are not genuinely interested in changing even though they know folks in that eschatology have a 100% fail rate. They know it. It's not news to anyone. I don't know about your search results but Google "the end of dispensationalism" and the results are alarming. Lots of folks are beginning to realize the last few decades of near-hegemony have been misguided and the dissent is not coming solely from prets (partial- or full-).


For anyone who hasn't already seen it, R. C. Sproul's series titled, "The Last Days According to Jesus," is well worth the time.