The Atonement

[Carbon]

Do you understand the Atonement {In Scripture} as,

Limited
or
unlimited

Did the Atonement actually save?
or
Make it possible for salvation?

Passages?

 

[Deleted member 6]

Do you understand the Atonement {In Scripture} as,

Yes

Limited
or
unlimited

Seeing I am a Calvinist, "L"

Did the Atonement actually save?
or
Make it possible for salvation?

Actual

Passages?

John 10:11,15 Ephesians 1:3ff, Romans 8:28ff, 1 Cor. 1:26ff, Ezekiel 34, Gen. 3:15, Rev. 5:9, &c.

 

[David1701]

Do you understand the Atonement {In Scripture} as,

Limited
or
unlimited

Did the Atonement actually save?
or
Make it possible for salvation?

Passages?

I believe that the atonement is unlimited in its value, but limited in the scope of its intended application (the elect only).

I believe that we are saved because Jesus atoned for us, effectually, carrying our sins, bearing our punishment for them and propitiating the Father for us.

Isaiah 53

 

[atpollard]

John 10:11-16 [NLT]

11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. 12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don't belong to him and he isn't their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. 13 The hired hand runs away because he's working only for the money and doesn't really care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.​

FACT CHECKING TIME:
How does that prove LIMITED vs GENERAL Atonement?

Let me offer a GENERAL ATONEMENT exegesis for you to refute:

Throughout Scripture, "sheep" are a symbol for God's Chosen People (the nation of Israel). So Jesus is telling a Jewish audience that He is the "good shepherd" (anointed leader) because He sacrifices His life for God's People. The Wolves (worldly leaders, like Rome) harm rather than protect God's people. In John 10:26 Jesus will make the point that those who do not believe are "not HIS sheep" ... they are still sheep (Israel) so the "Good Shepherd" still died for them, but they are not HIS SHEEP so they do not follow and do not receive eternal life. Sufficient for ALL (UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT) but EFFECTIVE for only some [I have no idea what limits the efficacy of the blood in UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT ... faith? ... it is not covered in these verses.]

We [Reformed] are often very sloppy in our handling of scripture on the subject of Limited Atonement; engaging in eisegesis worthy of an Arminian.

I invite those more knowledgeable to shred my argument. I created it in hopes that someone could defeat it.

 

[makesends]

John 10:11-16 [NLT]

11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. 12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don't belong to him and he isn't their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. 13 The hired hand runs away because he's working only for the money and doesn't really care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.​

FACT CHECKING TIME:
How does that prove LIMITED vs GENERAL Atonement?

Let me offer a GENERAL ATONEMENT exegesis for you to refute:

Throughout Scripture, "sheep" are a symbol for God's Chosen People (the nation of Israel). So Jesus is telling a Jewish audience that He is the "good shepherd" (anointed leader) because He sacrifices His life for God's People. The Wolves (worldly leaders, like Rome) harm rather than protect God's people. In John 10:26 Jesus will make the point that those who do not believe are "not HIS sheep" ... they are still sheep (Israel) so the "Good Shepherd" still died for them, but they are not HIS SHEEP so they do not follow and do not receive eternal life. Sufficient for ALL (UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT) but EFFECTIVE for only some [I have no idea what limits the efficacy of the blood in UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT ... faith? ... it is not covered in these verses.]

We [Reformed] are often very sloppy in our handling of scripture on the subject of Limited Atonement; engaging in eisegesis worthy of an Arminian.

I invite those more knowledgeable to shred my argument. I created it in hopes that someone could defeat it.

I'm having a hard time following the argument. It is not cohesive, to my mind, but all over the place.

 

[ReverendRV]

Do you understand the Atonement {In Scripture} as,

Limited
or
unlimited

Did the Atonement actually save?
or
Make it possible for salvation?

Passages?

The Atonement is Limited to the Unconditional Elect, and the Atonement actually Saves us...

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah53:5&version=KJV

 

[donadams]

The Atonement is Limited to the Unconditional Elect, and the Atonement actually Saves us...

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. - Isaiah 53:5 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah53:5&version=KJV

Also Jn 1:9

 

[donadams]

Is there more than one savior?

The five solas say Christ alone, why?
Jn 1:16:17
Jn 14:6
Acts 4:10-12

 

[civic]

Do you understand the Atonement {In Scripture} as,

Limited
or
unlimited

Did the Atonement actually save?
or
Make it possible for salvation?

Passages?

Don't get me started

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:11

11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

The Atonement of Christ has reconciled the elect world to God. It secured and ensured for it [ the elect world] every spiritual blessing needed to live unto God and for His Glory through Jesus christ.

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

The atonement accomplished the complete salvation for all whom it was offered for, that is the death of Christ. It provides them Faith, repentance, sanctification, redemption, and every needful spiritual blessing to convert them to God, and remain secured forever.

 

[Carbon]

Even before the elect are born into this world as sinners, they have already [by the blood of Christ] been reconciled to God, it will now be a matter of time for it to be manifested.

Are you finally getting it?

First time I've seen this said by you.

 

[brightfame52]

Are you finally getting it?

First time I've seen this said by you.

Believed it for years, so you believe that as well

 

[Carbon]

I think there is still a difference. He believes the persons are "saved" already before they ever lived, but only realize this in time.

Could'nt, be. he would be denying scripture if that were the case.

 

[Eleanor]

John 10:11-16 [NLT]

11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd sacrifices his life for the sheep. 12 A hired hand will run when he sees a wolf coming. He will abandon the sheep because they don't belong to him and he isn't their shepherd. And so the wolf attacks them and scatters the flock. 13 The hired hand runs away because he's working only for the money and doesn't really care about the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd; I know my own sheep, and they know me, 15 just as my Father knows me and I know the Father. So I sacrifice my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also. They will listen to my voice, and there will be one flock with one shepherd.​

​

FACT CHECKING TIME:
How does that prove LIMITED vs GENERAL Atonement?
Let me offer a GENERAL ATONEMENT exegesis for you to refute:
Throughout Scripture, "sheep" are a symbol for God's Chosen People (the nation of Israel). So Jesus is telling a Jewish audience that He is the "good shepherd" (anointed leader) because He sacrifices His life for God's People. The Wolves (worldly leaders, like Rome) harm rather than protect God's people. In John 10:26 Jesus will make the point that those who do not believe are "not HIS sheep" ... they are still sheep (Israel) so the "Good Shepherd" still died for them, but they are not HIS SHEEP so they do not follow and do not receive eternal life. Sufficient for ALL (UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT) but EFFECTIVE for only some [I have no idea what limits the efficacy of the blood in UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT ... faith? ... it is not covered in these verses.]
We [Reformed] are often very sloppy in our handling of scripture on the subject of Limited Atonement; engaging in eisegesis worthy of an Arminian.

I invite those more knowledgeable to shred my argument. I created it in hopes that someone could defeat it.

If you are Reformed, do you not believe in election before the foundation of the world, based on nothing but God's sovereign choice to do so?

Since God has sovereignly determined before the foundation of the world who would savingly believe--they and no others, why would he die for the others whom he did not intend to save?

Limited atonement comes from those Reformed doctrines.

To which I add the Biblical testimony of the OT sacrifices, which were the pattern for Christ's sacrifice, and they being for God's people only, not for all mankind.

 

[brightfame52]

Deliverance from unbelief !

Unbelief is one of the sins that the elect world is saved from, that's the significance of this portion Jn 16:8-9.

The Holy Spirit convicts the elect unbeliever of sin and gives them faith.

Paul is an example, he was an elect who in unbelief rejected Jesus Christ and persecuted His followers, being blinded by the god of this world, but when it pleased God, He revealed in Him Jesus christ and he became a believer.

1 Tim 1:12-15,16

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith [to believe] and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Being saved experimentally is being delivered from unbelief .

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

The Fact is, no one Jesus Christ died to save, can ever die in unbelief, that would defeat one of the main purposes of His death accomplishments.

 

[brightfame52]

What are the objectives and effects of the death of Christ ?

Why was it important for those He shed His blood for ? It provided unto them redemption per Eph 1:7

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

The word for redemption is:

apolytrōsis and means:

releasing effected by payment of ransom

a) redemption, deliverance

b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

The death of Christ procured the Liberation of His people who had been captive by satan and under his power of darkness.

So all them whom Christ redeemed by His blood are recipients in time of the Spirit of Liberty.

2 Cor 3:17

Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

It is written of Christ in the OT Isa 61:1

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

also Lk 4:18

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

So, one of the objectives and effects of the death of Christ for His People is their redemption which secure unto them their regeneration, or birth by the Spirit, which gives them Spiritual liberty !

 

[Eleanor]

What are the objectives and effects of the death of Christ ?
Why was it important for those He shed His blood for ? It provided unto them redemption per Eph 1:7
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The word for redemption is:
apolytrōsis and means:
releasing effected by payment of ransom
a) redemption, deliverance
b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom
The death of Christ procured the Liberation of His people who had been captive by satan and under his power of darkness.
So all them whom Christ redeemed by His blood are recipients in time of the Spirit of Liberty.
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
It is written of Christ in the OT Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
also Lk 4:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the po

or; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
So, one of the objectives and effects of the death of Christ for His People is their redemption which secure unto them their regeneration, or birth by the Spirit, which gives them Spiritual liberty !

Regeneration is by sovereign choice and act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).
That is the only thing that secures our regeneration.

Our regeneration secures our faith, by which faith we receive the benefits of salvation--forgiveness of sin which, saves us from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on sin.

rebirth by the Holy Spirit--->faith--->forgiveness of sin; i.e., salvation from God's wrath on sin, justification (imputed righteousness)--->liberty

 

[brightfame52]

Regeneration is by sovereign choice and act of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:7-8).
That is the only thing that secures our regeneration.

Our regeneration secures our faith, by which faith we receive the benefits of salvation--forgiveness of sin which, saves us from God's wrath (Ro 5:9) on sin.

rebirth by the Holy Spirit--->faith--->forgiveness of sin; i.e., salvation from God's wrath on sin, justification (imputed righteousness)--->liberty

So did you understand my post points ?

 

[Eleanor]

So did you understand my post points ?

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
The word for redemption is:
apolytrōsis and means:
releasing effected by payment of ransom
a) redemption, deliverance
b) liberation procured by the payment of a ransom
The death of Christ procured the Liberation of His people who had been captive by satan and under his power of darkness.
So all them whom Christ redeemed by His blood are recipients in time of the Spirit of Liberty.

So, one of the objectives and effects of the death of Christ for His People is their redemption which secure unto them their regeneration, or birth by the Spirit, which gives them Spiritual liberty !

Well, the issue in Christ's atoning death is payment of the debt (punishment) for sin.
The debt for sin is condemnation (Ro 5:18) and wrath (Ro 5:9).
Through faith in Jesus' atoning death, our sin is forgiven (thereby removing Gods condemnation and wrath on us), which is salvation (from God's wrath, Ro 5:9).
So the issue in regeneration-->faith-->salvation from God's wrath is removal of guilt, and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
The liberty here is set free from condemnation, eternal death.

Is that what you mean by spiritual liberty?

 

[brightfame52]

Well, the issue in Christ's atoning death is payment of the debt (punishment) for sin.
The debt for sin is condemnation (Ro 5:18) and wrath (Ro 5:9).
Through faith in Jesus' atoning death, our sin is forgiven (thereby removing Gods condemnation and wrath on us), which is salvation (from God's wrath, Ro 5:9).
So the issue in regeneration-->faith-->salvation from God's wrath is removal of guilt, and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
The liberty here is set free from condemnation, eternal death.

Is that what you mean by spiritual liberty?

I dont think you understand my post.