Should all Christians speak in Tongues?

[STAND]

Sorry if this seems repetitive. This was a post in another thread that was transferred to a thread of its own.

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

 

[Josheb]

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

Bad question. Whether undeniably a sign of having received the Holy Spirit, glossolalia is not necessary for salvation. It is a mistake to conflate glossolalia with regeneration or indwelling. Glossolalia occurs as a consequence of the indwelling Spirit, not the other way around.


The New Testament repeatedly has converts experience rebirth and indwelling at the time of conversion, not in two separate occasions. The Acts 19 group is the exception to the rule, not the rule. Furthermore, the prophetic utterance of tongues at conversion is something much different than post-conversion glossolalia occurring on other occasions (such as during a worship service). Glossolalia, according to Paul, is the least of the Spirit's gifts. The HS would be the greatest of Christ's gifts to us.

 

[STAND]

Bad question. Whether undeniably a sign of having received the Holy Spirit, glossolalia is not necessary for salvation. It is a mistake to conflate glossolalia with regeneration or indwelling. Glossolalia occurs as a consequence of the indwelling Spirit, not the other way around.


The New Testament repeatedly has converts experience rebirth and indwelling at the time of conversion, not in two separate occasions. The Acts 19 group is the exception to the rule, not the rule. Furthermore, the prophetic utterance of tongues at conversion is something much different than post-conversion glossolalia occurring on other occasions (such as during a worship service). Glossolalia, according to Paul, is the least of the Spirit's gifts. The HS would be the greatest of Christ's gifts to us.

I hear ya.

My point about 'tongues' being necessary for Salvation was in the sense of deductive logic: if we must have the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, and Pentecostals/Charismatics claim that 'tongues' is the sign (or "birth") of having received the Holy Spirit, then that would make it necessary for Salvation.

God bless.

 

[Fred]

if we must have the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, and Pentecostals/Charismatics claim that 'tongues' is the sign (or "birth") of having received the Holy Spirit, then that would make it necessary for Salvation.

Do all speak in tongues?
This is a rhetorical question from 1 Corinthians 12:30. The answer is "no."

 

[Binyawmene]

I hear ya.

My point about 'tongues' being necessary for Salvation was in the sense of deductive logic: if we must have the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, and Pentecostals/Charismatics claim that 'tongues' is the sign (or "birth") of having received the Holy Spirit, then that would make it necessary for Salvation.

God bless.

Oneness Pentecostals teaches tongues is necessary for salvation. Classical Pentecostals, on the other hand,
believe that regeneration and Spirit baptism are two separate spiritual experiences. So, Spirit baptism is not part of salvation. While others believe that Spirit baptism is one of the subsequences to regeneration and is part of salvation. My position is that repentance and faith are inseparable, even though we systematically distinguish them, but repentance cannot exist apart from faith in conversion. I believe faith and repentance in conversion is a one-step process. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc., but repentance isn't.

For myself personally, I believe there are two different functional works of the Holy Spirit which is based on "subsequence and separability." The Spirit-baptism is a separate unique second experience from the salvation experience. This second experience is not concurrent with conversion, but rather subsequent to conversion and logically separate from conversion. The work of the Spirit in regard to salvation (like regeneration "Spirit gives birth to spirit" or sanctification "sanctifying work of the Spirit" etc.) and there is a whole separate distinctive work of the Spirit in regard to service in the role of the Church (like speaking in tongues and the doorway for all the other spiritual gift).

A person can be saved without having the Spirit baptism. Again, after conversion, faith itself is continuous and on-going process in the subsequences following after regeneration, and Spirit baptism is received by faith (Galatians 3:2, 14 "...so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit"). But the Spirit baptism always happens after conversion, it can be either immediate or an unspecified timing when receiving the Spirit baptism, as long it occurs after conversion. While it's true that God's timing is not our timing and there is no specified time-range between "after-conversion" and "Spirit baptism." It can follow up immediately after the conversion or an unspecified timing after conversion. Either way there is an unspecified timing between conversion and the Spirit baptism. It would appear that those who received the Spirit baptism immediately right after the conversion experience. They didn't realize that there was a brief interval between conversion and Spirit baptism.

 

[Josheb]

I hear ya.

My point about 'tongues' being necessary for Salvation was in the sense of deductive logic: if we must have the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, and Pentecostals/Charismatics claim that 'tongues' is the sign (or "birth") of having received the Holy Spirit, then that would make it necessary for Salvation.

God bless.

The Pentecostals/Charismatics are wrong. Tongues is a sign, not the sign.

While the New Testament is not explicit about this, it seems that the early group or crowd conversions were the exception to the rule, not the rule, and that is why scripture mentions the prophesying in tongues. We do not read any mention of either with the conversions of Lydia, the jailer, or the Areopagus. We also know glossalalia was abused in the early Church because Paul addressed the problems in his Corinthian letters. Anyone who has been to a charismaniacal congregation knows those "services" routinely violate the standards set by Paul. They may be rewarding psychologically but they have nothing to do with the Spirit. Cessationists argue all gifts stopped with the NT era. I am not one of them, but those are the poles: charismaniacs on one end and cessationists on the other.

No Spirit for you today!

 

[STAND]

Oneness Pentecostals teaches tongues is necessary for salvation. Classical Pentecostals, on the other hand,
believe that regeneration and Spirit baptism are two separate spiritual experiences. So, Spirit baptism is not part of salvation. While others believe that Spirit baptism is one of the subsequences to regeneration and is part of salvation. My position is that repentance and faith are inseparable, even though we systematically distinguish them, but repentance cannot exist apart from faith in conversion. I believe faith and repentance in conversion is a one-step process. Because regeneration precedes faith (1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1, 4, 18) and faith is an ongoing process into justification (Romans 5:1), adoption (Galatians 3:26), sanctification (Acts 26:18) etc., but repentance isn't.

For myself personally, I believe there are two different functional works of the Holy Spirit which is based on "subsequence and separability." The Spirit-baptism is a separate unique second experience from the salvation experience. This second experience is not concurrent with conversion, but rather subsequent to conversion and logically separate from conversion. The work of the Spirit in regard to salvation (like regeneration "Spirit gives birth to spirit" or sanctification "sanctifying work of the Spirit" etc.) and there is a whole separate distinctive work of the Spirit in regard to service in the role of the Church (like speaking in tongues and the doorway for all the other spiritual gift).

A person can be saved without having the Spirit baptism. Again, after conversion, faith itself is continuous and on-going process in the subsequences following after regeneration, and Spirit baptism is received by faith (Galatians 3:2, 14 "...so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit"). But the Spirit baptism always happens after conversion, it can be either immediate or an unspecified timing when receiving the Spirit baptism, as long it occurs after conversion. While it's true that God's timing is not our timing and there is no specified time-range between "after-conversion" and "Spirit baptism." It can follow up immediately after the conversion or an unspecified timing after conversion. Either way there is an unspecified timing between conversion and the Spirit baptism. It would appear that those who received the Spirit baptism immediately right after the conversion experience. They didn't realize that there was a brief interval between conversion and Spirit baptism.

Thanks for the information.

What do you think is the reason we see so many speaking a glossolalia form of tongues today and no xenolalia at all?

Based on the Biblical explanations, it seems like it should be the other way around.

 

[STAND]

The Pentecostals/Charismatics are wrong. Tongues is a sign, not the sign.

While the New Testament is not explicit about this, it seems that the early group or crowd conversions were the exception to the rule, not the rule, and that is why scripture mentions the prophesying in tongues. We do not read any mention of either with the conversions of Lydia, the jailer, or the Areopagus. We also know glossalalia was abused in the early Church because Paul addressed the problems in his Corinthian letters. Anyone who has been to a charismaniacal congregation knows those "services" routinely violate the standards set by Paul. They may be rewarding psychologically but they have nothing to do with the Spirit. Cessationists argue all gifts stopped with the NT era. I am not one of them, but those are the poles: charismaniacs on one end and cessationists on the other.

I think I agree with most of that.

I'm still not a "hardline" cessationist, I don't think, but I am still researching and analyzing all the data concerning 'tongues'.

I know that much of what I have heard and seen is not convincing at all.

 

[Carbon]

I hear ya.

My point about 'tongues' being necessary for Salvation was in the sense of deductive logic: if we must have the Holy Spirit in order to be saved, and Pentecostals/Charismatics claim that 'tongues' is the sign (or "birth") of having received the Holy Spirit, then that would make it necessary for Salvation.

God bless.

There is another part to this. Pentecostals (oneness also which I believe is a cult) believe after being born again there is another filling that is needed, ie being filled with the Holy Spirit, and once this happens, some teach it is evidence you have been filled, while others do not. I attended a Methodist church that taught I had to be filled with the Holy Spirit in order to receive the gifts. tongues being one. They did not teach tongues are the evidence you received the Spirit, but you had to receive the Spirit to get the gifts, tongues being one.
Personally, I believe this is total nonsense. I believe when one is born again (regenerated) we are placed in Christ and receive the Holy Spirit, done deal.
We do not need signs and miracles. No need to worry, The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16.

I also see no need for tongues today. It was a sign for the Jews that salvation had come to the Gentiles.

 

[Carbon]

What do you think is the reason we see so many speaking a glossolalia form of tongues today and no xenolalia at all?

Based on the Biblical explanations, it seems like it should be the other way around.

I think bad erroneous theology is a slippery slope. If you observe closely, I believe we will see, that tongues is taught. I was told if you have a feeling inside that something wants to come out, let it out. It may not make much sense at first, but the more you do it the better it will become. What does that sound like?

 

[Carbon]

Do all speak in tongues?
This is a rhetorical question from 1 Corinthians 12:30. The answer is "no."

Plain and simple.

 

[Carbon]

Oneness Pentecostals teaches tongues is necessary for salvation.

Those who I know teach tongues is proof one is born again. So, until one speaks in tongues, they are not born again.

 

[Binyawmene]

Thanks for the information.

You're welcome.

What do you think is the reason we see so many speaking a glossolalia form of tongues today and no xenolalia at all?

I don't know.

Based on the Biblical explanations, it seems like it should be the other way around.

I speak in tongues since 1999. I would go on three day fasts and all I would do is just pray in tongues. Until one day I spoke right into English and knew within my spirit I had the gift of prophecy. I sing in both tongues and prophecy which comes out like a rhyme. I've given out the most beautiful perfect praise to God in prophecy. Prophecy quotes Scriptures, for example, "I am the Lord, I am he, I am the one who is sent that testifies unto you. That greater is he who is in you then he that is in the world." I normally get "words," "phrases," and "Bible verses" that will suddenly pop in my mind. That is dealing with my situation or someone else situation.

 

[Binyawmene]

Those who I know teach tongues is proof one is born again. So, until one speaks in tongues, they are not born again.

Naturally, I would assume that you can't receive the spiritual gifts mention in 1 Corinthians 12 without being born again.

 

[STAND]

I speak in tongues since 1999.

This is not a challenge of your testimony, but just a request that you don't have to accept.

I am still actively researching and learning as much as I can about 'tongues' and I was wondering if you might be able to locate a video online somewhere, or even audio, of what you consider legit speaking in tongues?

Or even video/audio of you speaking in tongues?

There are just so many fraudulent examples all over Youtube that I haven't had the chance to actually witness and analyze a good example of this phenomenon.

Last time I asked somebody to do this, they posted Kenneth Hagin videos. Needless to say, they were really bad.

Do you know of any that you could post for me to check out please?

 

[Binyawmene]

This is not a challenge of your testimony, but just a request that you don't have to accept.

I am still actively researching and learning as much as I can about 'tongues' and I was wondering if you might be able to locate a video online somewhere, or even audio, of what you consider legit speaking in tongues?

Or even video/audio of you speaking in tongues?

There are just so many fraudulent examples all over Youtube that I haven't had the chance to actually witness and analyze a good example of this phenomenon.

Last time I asked somebody to do this, they posted Kenneth Hagin videos. Needless to say, they were really bad.

Do you know of any that you could post for me to check out please?

I appreciate your request. But I'm not going to take the time to search through youtube videos of what I think is real or fake tongues. And I'm not going to make a video or audio of me speaking in tongues. But I do hope your search goes well and find what you are looking for. Maybe one day you might become a continuationist. I remember at one time I used to laugh at people who spoke in tongues. It was really funny, now that I speak in tongues, it's no longer funny and cherish the precious gift.

 

[STAND]

I appreciate your request. But I'm not going to take the time to search through youtube videos of what I think is real or fake tongues. And I'm not going to make a video or audio of me speaking in tongues. But I do hope your search goes well and find what you are looking for. Maybe one day you might become a continuationist. I remember at one time I used to laugh at people who spoke in tongues. It was really funny, now that I speak in tongues, it's no longer funny and cherish the precious gift.

Thank you. I am very honest and sincere in my research so I too pray that God will bless me with the experience if it is His will to do so.

Can you tell me how often you speak in glossolalia vs xenolalia? Do you agree that most speak in gloss' most of the time, or do you have a different experience?

 

[STAND]

I appreciate your request. But I'm not going to take the time to search through youtube videos of what I think is real or fake tongues. And I'm not going to make a video or audio of me speaking in tongues. But I do hope your search goes well and find what you are looking for. Maybe one day you might become a continuationist. I remember at one time I used to laugh at people who spoke in tongues. It was really funny, now that I speak in tongues, it's no longer funny and cherish the precious gift.

Can you answer my simple question, please?

Can you tell me how often you speak in glossolalia vs xenolalia? Do you agree that most speak in gloss' most of the time, or do you have a different experience?

 

[Mr GLee]

Naturally, I would assume that you can't receive the spiritual gifts mention in 1 Corinthians 12 without being born again.

I would offer.

It has much to do with how we define the word "spiritual." pertaining to spirit (eternal things not seen) not pertaining to the flesh (the temporal dying seen . )

It would seem you assume spiritual gifts are gifts that can be seen. If so then it would seem you are not walking by faith the unseen eternal things of God . A spirit has no form.

The gifts are given at the time he gives them .Its not something that comes from us a ID card for the believer . he can use any gift in any person or more than one .It points to the power of his love that moves the prophets . Spiritual gifts are two fold never the witness of one In

In Roman 1 God as a spiritual gift giver sends his apostles with the gift prophecy the gospel, prophesying giving the understanding of faith as a spirit gift to the hearer as well as the speaker . The Holy Spirit mutually working in both.

Romans1:9-17 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto youFor I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith (Christ) both of you and me.Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. . . . . . . . . . . (faith the unseen eternal things of God, comparing the spiritual unseen to the spiritual not the literal dying to the literal .they must be mixed

1 Corihtinans2: 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Believers have a living hope that works in us daily. We can miraculously pray as a spiritual gift give us this day the food to do your will as a spiritual gift .

Who would hope for something they already have? it is not of us we are to demonstrate the work of the unseen head Christ .

Roman 8: 24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

The gift of patience the first wok of his love it can continue building on His labor of. Love then it can be kind and not envy and not make a record of sufferings.

 

[STAND]

.