Severed from Christ ?

[ChristB4us]

First of all, I'm wondering if she did what the NT shows there.

well, I am sure if she was here as you & @civic talk about it the way that you guys are, she probably would say yeah she did because that was why she was worried as she did blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

And secondly, unforgivieable sin means maintenance of that sin in your life and dying in that sin.
None will die sinless at death, but any who die in that sin (which is irresolvable unbelief) are without hope of forgiveness.

Well the only sin I see the Holy Spirit convicting the world of is the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ. Believers use that verse as if He convicts sinners of sin to be led to believe in Jesus Christ and that is not true. This conviction done by the Holy Ghost pertains to judgment after death.

The text shows me that rejecting the witness is one thing, saying the Holy Spirit is unclean is a whole 'nother ball game.
That is to say the Holy Spirit is Satan. Not in God's house!

And the cause, root, source of that unforgivable sin is rejecting the witness of the Holy Spirit because you see him as unclean.

That is what Jesus is talking about.

When you compare the two accounts from Matthew's & Marks' together, you might see the whole story with His help, but I know what you mean for how you see it to mean by Mark's reference, but together, I am seeing a different truth towards what this is written for.

As it is, they were not directing their insult to the Holy Spirit but to scatter potential believers away from Christ of what the Holy Spirit was doing by Christ for why I see this as a work of unbelief by the sinners.

Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation. 30 Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.

I see what you mean but notice Wherefore in verse 31 for the action done in verse 30 for why He is saying that in verse 32.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. 31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

It is a complicated issue when deriving a truth from these two passages and yet it is plainly written what the Holy Spirt will convict of in John 15:8-9 and that is the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ.

 

[ChristB4us]

It is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that locks you up in unbelief, making you unable to be delivered.

All condemned are condemned because of unbelief.

Okay then. So no believer that thinks they had done that before they were saved, need to worry about it, because they believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[civic]

As she understood it as others talk about what that blasphemy against the Holy Ghost was as she said she had done it before she was a believer for why she was worried about it.

I would say the Father would not bother to give her to the Son to save her if she was going to be eternally condemned anyway. What does that do to the glory of God in salvation but God giving Himself a black eye? Not likely.

So that is why I say that the unforgivable sin is what the Holy Spirit is going to convict sinners for; never having believed in Jesus Christ.

The sin those Pharisees were committing was denying the witness of the Holy Spirit's regarding the Son as God when the Son was casting out the devils.

Hence the sin of unbelief.

No it was a specific sin . They accused Jesus of being possessed by beelzebub and casting out demons my him therefor blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Christ casting out those demons and performing miracles . They were guilty of that eternal sin. They were already unbelievers.

 

[Eleanor]

well, I am sure if she was here as you & @civic talk about it the way that you guys are, she probably would say yeah she did because that was why she was worried as she did blaspheme the Holy Ghost.

Well the only sin I see the Holy Spirit convicting the world of is the sin of not believing in Jesus Christ. Believers use that verse as if He convicts sinners of sin to be led to believe in Jesus Christ and that is not true. This conviction done by the Holy Ghost pertains to judgment after death.

Does he not convict the world of the guilt of
sin - unbelief
righteousness - right with God in Christ alone, who is going to the Father to secure righteousness for the elect
judgment - reality of the just judgment of Satan in his defeat

When you compare the two accounts from Matthew's & Marks' together, you might see the whole story with His help, but I know what you mean for how you see it to mean by Mark's reference, but together, I am seeing a different truth towards what this is written for.

As it is, they were not directing their insult to the Holy Spirit

It is not an insult to the Holy Spirit to call an unclean spirit unclean.
It is blasphemy to call unclean the Spirit by whom Jesus cast out devils.

but to scatter potential believers away from Christ of what the Holy Spirit was doing by Christ for why I see this as a work of unbelief by the sinners.

It was an illustration of their contempt and personal revulsion of Jesus, from which they spoke falsely and blasphemously of him.
They came down to check on him and decided he was a charade because he didn't fit their pattern of Messiah. To them he was a fraud and they called him out on it.

 

[Eleanor]

Okay then. So no believer that thinks they had done that before they were saved, need to worry about it, because they believe in Jesus Christ.

No one who does/thinks that from the heart comes to Christ unless he no longer thinks that, and then the condemnation no longer applies to him.

 

[makesends]

You will have to explain that as I see that as contrary to any one giving any correction to any fellow believer by the scripture at all and yet scripture teaches us to do that.

2 Timothy 3: 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

There is a time for everything.

Is not what you had posted would infer that anyone that corrects others by scripture is claiming to be self righteous?

You might infer that. My post did not.

Apology accepted.
If the head of every believer is Christ hence the Word of God, then scripture for correction also applies to me. The Word of God is supposed to.
Well, like I had apologized before to you & @Eleanor because my shortcoming can come through where I do not know when to stop talking about an issue with someone when I rely on the Lord to cause the increase. If it looked like He was not ministering at this time on that issue, it does not mean later on that Eleanor might be able to receive it from Him since He is the One that causes the increase.

Like those who preach the gospel, but the sinner did not believe then, but later on, the Father reminded him or her of the word spoken and they believe later on. And so that can happen in His iron sharpen iron ministry here in the forum when either side of any discussion may receive the truth & be more fruitful in the knowledge of Him & His words later on.

It sure took the Lord a while to get some truths to me to accept because I could not believe my church had taught me wrong. The idea of it never entered my head for why I did not question it in light of His words, but once I considered that which was taught by the church could be wrong, He was able to help me read the scriptures as is in seeing the meta of His words as reproving false teachings.

And so it is with any issue I am discussing with someone about. If some idea or notion is blocking them from receiving the truth in His words from Him, then I cannot help them at that time, but it goes to show how much I rely on the Lord Jesus Christ for me to keep going if that is what the Father wills.

But here's the thing. You assume, somehow, that you are not wrong, and that since you are seeing a need to say this or that, that it must be God is directing you to do so. (That is what, to me, you sound like, at least.) Whatever you think your motivations are, in this and similar discussion and debate forums, attacking the person is not what this is about.

Think, if someone from a completely different mindset, different theology, was to talk to you that way...

You say it took some doing for you to realize that what you had once thought was wrong. So say most of us. Does not the fact that you were wrong give you just a little pause about declaring that how you see things now is THE way it is? I speak Reform-ese, but I do not claim it as my theology. Scripture trumps everything. And your use of it seems always to be upon assumption that what you think is going on needs addressed, and you have just the Scripture to do it.

Let me give you an example: You imply, if you did not say it outright, that I should not complain if you correct me from Scripture. Then you go to some length to show me scripture that says things of the same sort, because, after all, Scripture IS for reproof and correction. Doesn't even occur to you that my problem isn't whether scripture should be used to correct and reprove. My problem is that the first reproof, upon which all subsequent 'argument' against supposed complaint is built, is presumptuous. Who do you think you are? Did God send you here to straighten us all out? You have the words of God that we don't?

Job said, "No doubt you are the people, and wisdom will die with you!" I hope that doesn't describe you.

What you have said to me is not the problem. HOW you said it is. I can take reproof, and have even from people that don't believe what I do, when they saw me becoming strident or contentious.

Do you remember me saying words to this effect, "Don't put this on God. YOU are the one saying this."?

 

[ChristB4us]

No it was a specific sin . They accused Jesus of being possessed by beelzebub and casting out demons my him therefor blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in Christ casting out those demons and performing miracles . They were guilty of that eternal sin. They were already unbelievers.

Well, if you should come across a believer worrying about what he or she had done in the past, because they believed they did something like that, I shall trust the Lord to lead you in what to say in that regard.

I would refer them to this:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[ChristB4us]

Does he not convict the world of the guilt of
sin - unbelief
righteousness - right with God in Christ alone, who is going to the Father to secure righteousness for the elect
judgment - reality of the just judgment of Satan in his defeat

It is not an insult to the Holy Spirit to call an unclean spirit unclean.
It is blasphemy to call unclean the Spirit by whom Jesus cast out devils.

It was an illustration of their contempt and personal revulsion of Jesus, from which they spoke falsely and blasphemously of him.
They came down to check on him and decided he was a charade because he didn't fit their pattern of Messiah. To them he was a fraud and they called him out on it.

Well, if you should come across a believer worrying about what he or she had done in the past, because they believed they did something like that, I shall trust the Lord to lead you in what to say in that regard.

I would refer them to this:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is a time for everything.

You might infer that. My post did not.

But here's the thing. You assume, somehow, that you are not wrong, and that since you are seeing a need to say this or that, that it must be God is directing you to do so. (That is what, to me, you sound like, at least.) Whatever you think your motivations are, in this and similar discussion and debate forums, attacking the person is not what this is about.

Think, if someone from a completely different mindset, different theology, was to talk to you that way...

You say it took some doing for you to realize that what you had once thought was wrong. So say most of us. Does not the fact that you were wrong give you just a little pause about declaring that how you see things now is THE way it is? I speak Reform-ese, but I do not claim it as my theology. Scripture trumps everything. And your use of it seems always to be upon assumption that what you think is going on needs addressed, and you have just the Scripture to do it.

Let me give you an example: You imply, if you did not say it outright, that I should not complain if you correct me from Scripture. Then you go to some length to show me scripture that says things of the same sort, because, after all, Scripture IS for reproof and correction. Doesn't even occur to you that my problem isn't whether scripture should be used to correct and reprove. My problem is that the first reproof, upon which all subsequent 'argument' against supposed complaint is built, is presumptuous. Who do you think you are? Did God send you here to straighten us all out? You have the words of God that we don't?

Job said, "No doubt you are the people, and wisdom will die with you!" I hope that doesn't describe you.

What you have said to me is not the problem. HOW you said it is. I can take reproof, and have even from people that don't believe what I do, when they saw me becoming strident or contentious.

Do you remember me saying words to this effect, "Don't put this on God. YOU are the one saying this."?

Well, you can always pray to the Lord to help me be a better witness, brother. I cannot do anything without Him, including when to let go.

I'll pray the same for you.

 

[Munro]

• Total voters 8