Romans 9 from a free will prespective

[JIM]

Another pelagian?

Your answer to my question, "Where does it say that" is Augustine?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Who said they don't have a choice? You're combating a strawman.

Then you go to contrasting belief vs works as if that is the Calvinist's point of argument. Once again, you are striking out at a strawman. In fact, the Calvinists believe salvation is by Grace, THROUGH faith, and not of works. Grace. And the faith is the gift of God. Do you think fallen man is capable of believing salvifically on his own? The demons also believe.

You obviously didn't read a single thing I wrote.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Who said they don't have a choice? You're combating a strawman.

Then you go to contrasting belief vs works as if that is the Calvinist's point of argument. Once again, you are striking out at a strawman. In fact, the Calvinists believe salvation is by Grace, THROUGH faith, and not of works. Grace. And the faith is the gift of God. Do you think fallen man is capable of believing salvifically on his own? The demons also believe.

You wrote this in another thread " I haven't studied Calvin" and yet your profile says you are Reformed. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

 

[Reformedguy]

29For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him, 30since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have.

We have been granted the grace to be able to believe, and to be able to suffer for him. If we are given faith/belief in your sense of the word, then we have also been given suffering by God.

Doug

It does not say "granted grace".

 

[TibiasDad]

Free will is defined as determined by powers other than God

Would not the power of independent choice be a decision of God, the creator? Is God incapable of creating something that can choose for itself?

How would such a creature usurp the ultimate authority of God?

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

It does not say "granted grace".

Oh, so now grace is absent! All things granted are gracious! A reformed gut that doesn’t see Grace in everything: That’s an oxymoron!

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Yada, Yada, Yada ~ by ReverendRV * December 28

Proverbs 28:13 (NLT) People who conceal their sins will not prosper, but if they confess and turn from them, they will receive mercy.

‘Seinfeld’ was a very popular TV Sitcom; with a famous episode about our title. In the episode, the girlfriend was telling a story to one of the main characters. It went something like, “We went on a date, had a nice dinner, yada, yada, yada; then we had breakfast”. This set a trend for the whole episode to have jokes exploring what yada, yada, yada means. Obviously this is a way to conceal something embarrassing that the Teller of the Story might not want to say, or to conceal something they might not want the listener to know. They started making jokes about all the kinds of ways that this phrase can be used; you know, Yada, Yada, Yada. I don’t need to explain it more because you have probably already seen the episode. ~ Can you read between the Yada-Lines and Know?

I found something interesting as I was looking at a Bible Concordance. I was looking something else up, and just under it was the word “Know”. I couldn’t help but notice the Hebrew word for this is ‘Yada’. It immediately made me think of this episode. I wondered if there was a connection, or if this was where the phrase “Yada, Yada, Yada” came from. The similarity seems to close to not be the case. Basically people use the phrase ‘Yada, Yada, Yada’ to say, “Well; you know…”, or, “I don’t need to say it because you already know”. In my research, here is what I found out about Yada. This form of Know/Yada occurs in the Bible 947 times. It can be used in several different ways such as, to ‘Know’ by Seeing with your own eyes, to Know by Perceiving, to have Knowledge and Wisdom. You can Yada someone because they’re famous, you can Yada someone if they’re related to you, or Yada someone intimately. There are all sorts of ways you can Know/Yada someone or something…

Have you ever said something like, ‘I went to the store, and yada, yada, yada; I look great in these new jeans!’ The “yada, yada, yada” implies you don’t want me to know how you got the jeans. Or, “I snuck out of the house last night, yada, yada, yada; my parents don’t know a thing”. It conceals what you did, to keep this from your parents. We use the phrase because we think that if we don’t vocalize what we do, we won’t have to be accountable for it; ‘but God already Yada’s ALL about it’. The Psalmist said, “Even before there is a word on my tongue, Behold, O LORD, You know it all. You can’t hide what you did from God, He knows the Evil things you did. God gave us instructions to live by, which are his Ten Commandments. We know deep down in our Heart that our Sin is wrong…

For God so loved the world, he gave his only Son, so that we will not perish but have everlasting Life. God knew we couldn’t keep the Covenant he made with Adam; that’s why he sent his Son to do it. God walked this earth in the form of the Man Jesus Christ, and Kept God’s Covenants with Adam AND Moses. Jesus paid the penalty for Sin by shedding his blood and dying on a Cross, and by arising from his Grave. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith, not by Works lest we should boast as if we did it. ~ Isn’t it strange that when we want to boast, we don’t conceal it with Yada, Yada, Yadas?

Acts 2:23-24 NASB this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. "But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew (yada) his wife Eve and she became pregnant…

Doug

 

[makesends]

You wrote this in another thread " I haven't studied Calvin" and yet your profile says you are Reformed. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

I identify as such because it helps some others immediately understand my POV better. But no, I have not studied Calvin. In fact, I have heard more about him and his writings, (much of it misrepresented and misquoted, judging by the larger context I hear from other sources), from those who oppose Calvinism, than from Calvinists. Contrary to popular opinion, Calvin usually is not —even for those who identify as Calvinists— the source of authority in the precepts and worldview they espouse.

 

[makesends]

Doe God cause the action of every individual drop of rain, or form every individual snowflake? If not does that mean He is not in control? Of course not. Does that make God less than omnipotent? Again, of course not.

I think God needs only the occasional tweak to "accomplish precisely what he set out to do from the beginning".

What is the difference, to God, between 'create', and 'tweak his creation'?

 

[fastfredy0]

Would not the power of independent choice be a decision of God, the creator? Is God incapable of creating something that can choose for itself?

It is not possible for God to create something that He does not know what it will do. We act according to our construction. I don't have wings so I cannot fly. I can't will what I wish to will; that's circular logic. God gave me a depraved natural so I lie and cheat. Godregenerates me and I lie and cheat less. God glorifies me after I die and I can longer sin. Like the Potter and the clay. The clay works exactly as designed. God reworks the clay (regeneration and later glorification) and the clay characteristics change according to the new design. If we didn't work according to our design then God could not predict the future for He can't know in eternity past what we will do as we were nothing at the time.

My turn for questions ...

1. Define Free Will?
2. If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?
3. If freewill is true why "pray" for the salvation of another?
4. How did the billions of people who died and never heard of Christ exercise their Free Will? What is this alternate salvific gospel?
5. How do those who die and never reach the "age of accountability" exercise their Free Will? Do they have Free Will.
6. If regeneration depended on the will of man, what is the reason more do not receive the gospel than are seen by us to receive it? If man is Free to determine his salvation than 50% of the population should be saved. Someone/something has severely limited "free will" (or I should get a refund for the university statistics class I took .. giggle)
7. For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’?
8. If you had children, would you bother praying for their salvation know that prayer is purposeless as your children Free Will determines their salvation.

I could continue ... let's so what you have to say...

 

[TibiasDad]

It is not possible for God to create something that He does not know what it will do. We act according to our construction. I don't have wings so I cannot fly. I can't will what I wish to will; that's circular logic. God gave me a depraved natural so I lie and cheat. Godregenerates me and I lie and cheat less. God glorifies me after I die and I can longer sin. Like the Potter and the clay. The clay works exactly as designed. God reworks the clay (regeneration and later glorification) and the clay characteristics change according to the new design. If we didn't work according to our design then God could not predict the future for He can't know in eternity past what we will do as we were nothing at the time.

My turn for questions ...

1. Define Free Will?
2. If freewill is true why has there never been a sinless human?
3. If freewill is true why "pray" for the salvation of another?
4. How did the billions of people who died and never heard of Christ exercise their Free Will? What is this alternate salvific gospel?
5. How do those who die and never reach the "age of accountability" exercise their Free Will? Do they have Free Will.
6. If regeneration depended on the will of man, what is the reason more do not receive the gospel than are seen by us to receive it? If man is Free to determine his salvation than 50% of the population should be saved. Someone/something has severely limited "free will" (or I should get a refund for the university statistics class I took .. giggle)
7. For those who believe in ‘eternal security’ and ‘free will’; does ‘eternal security’ nullify ‘free will’?
8. If you had children, would you bother praying for their salvation know that prayer is purposeless as your children Free Will determines their salvation.

I could continue ... let's so what you have to say...

When you answer my questions, I’ll answer yours. So again,

Would not the power of independent choice be a decision of God, the creator?

Is God incapable of creating something that can choose for itself?

How would such a creature usurp the ultimate authority of God?


Doug

 

[makesends]

When you answer my questions, I’ll answer yours. So again,

Would not the power of independent choice be a decision of God, the creator?

Is God incapable of creating something that can choose for itself?

How would such a creature usurp the ultimate authority of God?


Doug

Not that @fastfredy0 can't answer for himself, but can you not see that we cannot even exist apart from God's causation? We DO choose for ourselves —nobody's saying otherwise. That doesn't mean God does not cause it. He not only has that right, and that ability, but it is even illogical to think otherwise, as EVERYTHING descends logically from his creating. If we can't even breathe or think apart from his causation, then how can we choose apart from his causation? It is by God's causation, that our decisions are established.

 

[TibiasDad]

Not that @fastfredy0 can't answer for himself, but can you not see that we cannot even exist apart from God's causation?

I have not and am not arguing otherwise. The question is not of our objective existence, but rather what type of existence do we have?

We DO choose for ourselves —nobody's saying otherwise. That doesn't mean God does not cause it.

Actually, that does logically mean that God causes it! If God predetermines everything meticulously, and this before creation even exists, then by definition my choice is because of his choice not because of my independent choice.

He not only has that right, and that ability,

I would agree, but it is not a question of whether he is able or has the authority to do so, but rather if that is what he has done, and if that is his only option.

but it is even illogical to think otherwise,

Then you would be saying that God could not have done otherwise. And that is not an omnipotent God. Only an omnipotent God can create a being that has perfect freedom to choose against him, and yet the creature’s choices cannot overcome or override what that God’s ultimate will and purpose is.

as EVERYTHING descends logically from his creating.

God created us to be like him in every way, save for having ultimate capacity. In other words, we are as free as God in volition, but our choices cannot dictate or overcome his volition. We have creativity, but not the same capacity of creating. We are relational beings, meant to interact favorably with others in a variety of ways, but our capacity for doing so in not infinite like God’s. The same is true for our rational minds, our intellects, and authority over things. We have the capacity for all these things, but not in the same measure as God.

He created us in his image, and that means he has given us a true sense of independent power of will in our creaturely realm of existence. God gave man freedom to choose whatever he wanted within the garden’s offering of foods. And the freedom of when and how much he would eat.

Man was given the right of choosing to name the animals whatever he wanted to name them. Not what God chose for him to name them.

If we can't even breathe or think apart from his causation,

We can’t breathe or think without his causation, but whether we breathe and what we think is independent of his causation. Otherwise, the mandate to “choose life” and “repent and believe” are meaningless and deceptive, because we cannot choose so as to overturn his mandated choice for us.

then how can we choose apart from his causation? It is by God's causation, that our decisions are established.

Then God is unable, if not incapable of allowing a truly free relationship with his creation.

Our ability to choose is established, and the establishment of the ultimate result for those choices is certain. But our freedom derived from his image is ours alone to employ as we wish is also established as is the capacity for us to understand the ultimate consequences of these choices. Thus, “in the day you eat of the forbidden fruit, you will die” has real meaning!


Doug

 

[JIM]

What is the difference, to God, between 'create', and 'tweak his creation'?

If you are asking that question, then you do not understand even the meaning of God's creation, let alone what it tells us about the magnificence of God. God created this universe; He tweaked it a bit when He parted the waters of the Red Sea so the Hebrews could pass through.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done.

He is still resting from all that work.

 

[makesends]

He not only has that right, and that ability, but it is even illogical to think otherwise,

Then you would be saying that God could not have done otherwise. And that is not an omnipotent God. Only an omnipotent God can create a being that has perfect freedom to choose against him, and yet the creature’s choices cannot overcome or override what that God’s ultimate will and purpose is.

No. You are juxtaposing your point-of-view against the plain facts. You are assuming a human construction is valid, when instead it is self-contradictory. God is not limited by our notions or by our way of articulating what our imaginations come up with. Completely independent choice of the creature is not a valid concept. It is (I say, once again) not a question of his power, but of submitting him to our worldview.

 

[TibiasDad]

No. You are juxtaposing your point-of-view against the plain facts.

That’s funny, I would say the same thing about your argument. So where does that leave us?

You are assuming a human construction is valid, when instead it is self-contradictory.

And you are assuming it is not instead of proving it is self-contradictory.

God is not limited by our notions or by our way of articulating what our imaginations come up with.

How is God limited by our notions? I have never said we have limited God by our notions. I have said, or at least implied, that God is only limited by his own will. Our choices are only ours to make because God allows us to make them. He, being sovereign, is free to mitigate our choices or use them to fulfill his will outside of our intentions, such as with Joseph’s brothers or Pharaoh. Like he did with the oceans when he said,“This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’?” (Job 38:11), there is a limit to our freedom! It never is beyond the bounds of God’s sovereignty!


Completely independent choice of the creature is not a valid concept.

Neither is a God who is Love who deliberately chooses to create a people who will necessarily disobey him, and that the majority of which he has decreed to everlasting hell with out reprieve; and this before they had done anything good or bad or even existed!

It is (I say, once again) not a question of his power, but of submitting him to our worldview.

I am completely seeking to have my world submitted to him. Not him to my worldview It is not a question of power, but his sovereign right to do or not do whatever he wants, including allowing human responsibility to be a necessary factor in salvation’s plan. It does not lessen God or give any power to man that obligates God or grants any merit to man’s actions. God’s actions alone are the effectual causes of salvation.

Doug

 

[makesends]

He not only has that right, and that ability, but it is even illogical to think otherwise,

Then you would be saying that God could not have done otherwise. And that is not an omnipotent God. Only an omnipotent God can create a being that has perfect freedom to choose against him, and yet the creature’s choices cannot overcome or override what that God’s ultimate will and purpose is.

makesends said:
God is not limited by our notions or by our way of articulating what our imaginations come up with.

How is God limited by our notions? I have never said we have limited God by our notions. I have said, or at least implied, that God is only limited by his own will. Our choices are only ours to make because God allows us to make them. He, being sovereign, is free to mitigate our choices or use them to fulfill his will outside of our intentions, such as with Joseph’s brothers or Pharaoh. Like he did with the oceans when he said,“This far you may come and no farther; here is where your proud waves halt’?” (Job 38:11), there is a limit to our freedom! It never is beyond the bounds of God’s sovereignty!

You posit the notion that God being omnipotent means that he can make man able to choose independent of cause. THAT is illogical —not only that man is capable of altogether independent choice, but that God causing 'that man can have fully independent choice' is a question of God's power. Again: It is not a question of whether God has the power. It is a question of whether the self-contradictory notion of fully independent choice on the part of the creature is even a valid concept. It is not.

 

[TibiasDad]

You posit the notion that God being omnipotent means that he can make man able to choose independent of cause.

You see, makesends, you are deliberately accusing me of something that I have not said, and I have denied your assertions. It is not omnipotence on which I base my opinion, but his sovereign authority to do so.

I’m assuming that your argument wants to argue from the point of omnipotence because it suits your purposes, but you are creating a straw man!

God has the authoritative right to create us any way he wants! I admit that theoretically God could have created us just as you assert he did, but that is not the only possibility that he could have done, based on the character and nature of God. In fact, it is the character and nature of God that I would argue from that asserts your version of God’s actions are contradictory to his Character and nature. This is why I said in my last post in response to your calling my argument “invalid”:

Neither is a God who is Love who deliberately chooses to create a people who will necessarily disobey him, and that the majority of which he has decreed to everlasting hell with out reprieve; and this before they had done anything good or bad or even existed!

Doug

 

[fastfredy0]

When you answer my questions, I’ll answer yours. So again,

Would not the power of independent choice be a decision of God, the creator?

Is God incapable of creating something that can choose for itself?

How would such a creature usurp the ultimate authority of God?

I did answer your question:

It is not possible for God to create something that He does not know what it will do. We act according to our construction. I don't have wings so I cannot fly. I can't will what I wish to will; that's circular logic. God gave me a depraved natural so I lie and cheat. Godregenerates me and I lie and cheat less. God glorifies me after I die and I can longer sin. Like the Potter and the clay. The clay works exactly as designed. God reworks the clay (regeneration and later glorification) and the clay characteristics change according to the new design. If we didn't work according to our design then God could not predict the future for He can't know in eternity past what we will do as we were nothing at the time.

When you answer my questions, I’ll answer yours. So again,

No need to answer my questions. I'm good.

 

[TibiasDad]

I did answer your question:




No need to answer my questions. I'm good.

That answers none of my questions!

Doug