Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[JIM]

Jim, as you have said a few times over in the past few years that I have known you, I will now say to you through Arial's post.

Hear ye hear ye!

Red, I have mostly quit listening to anything Arial has to say. Most of it is meanderings through the pages of the Bible with little rational meaning assigned to any of it like the mention of filthy rages in reply #168.

 

[JIM]

Jesus denies it: "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin." (Jn 8:34)

Slaves are not free.

But even slaves can earnestly desire to be free. They can take whatever steps they feel might set them free.

 

[Arial]

What is man's will apart from free will?

You must have a strange definition of "free".

 

[Arial]

Red, I have mostly quit listening to anything Arial has to say. Most of it is meanderings through the pages of the Bible with little rational meaning assigned to any of it like the mention of filthy rages in reply #168.

You never have been listening to anything I say. And if you were to do so you would not have read "filthy rags" as "filthy rages". And you would not have read this:

TD does not state the individual is totally incapable of any choice which is pleasing to God. TD echoes God's own words that even the righteous acts of man in his natural state are as filthy rags to him. Which has nothing to do with will, but with the acts themselves.

as saying this:

Acts committed have nothing to do with will?

Also you have never answered the question of are you a Trinitarian?

 

[Arial]

Amd if you are taking that from Isaiah 64, you might want to start reading a couple of chapters before and after that to see what is being talked about.
.

Since the NT interprets the OT (which is why it is so often quoted in the NT) lets see how Paul applies Is 64, quoting from it and a couple of other similar OT scriptures.

Romans 4
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

Just in case you were trying to imply that only the righteous acts of Jews are filthy rags to God.

 

[Eleanor]

But even slaves can earnestly desire to be free. They can take whatever steps they feel might set them free.

And?

 

[JIM]

You must have a strange definition of "free".

If you can't answer the question, then perhaps it is you that has a strange definition of free, in particular free will.

 

[JIM]

And?

And even slaves can earnestly desire to be free. They can take whatever steps they feel might set them free.

 

[Eleanor]

And even slaves can earnestly desire to be free. They can take whatever steps they feel might set them free.

Be definition, a slave is not free.

We are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34), we are not free to choose to be sinless.

 

[JIM]

Since the NT interprets the OT (which is why it is so often quoted in the NT) lets see how Paul applies Is 64, quoting from it and a couple of other similar OT scriptures.

Romans 4
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

I am curious. When it says there, "None is righteous, no, not one", does that apply to you. Does the whole passage of Romans 3:9-20 apply to you today, this very day?

Just in case you were trying to imply that only the righteous acts of Jews are filthy rags to God.

And no, I said nothing about filthy rags applying only to Jews.

 

[JIM]

Be definition, a slave is not free.

We are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34), we are not free to choose to be sinless.

Well for most of us it is long past the point at which we could be sinless. But we can choose to believe in the one who can forgive us our sins. Jesus said just couple of verses before that one, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." And then a little later He said, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

 

[Red Baker]

But even slaves can earnestly desire to be free. They can take whatever steps they feel might set them free.

Jim, there's a huge difference between a spiritual slave and one that is one naturally. Those who are servants to sin, love being so!

John 3:19​

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

Jim this is the doctrine of total depravity in a nut shell ~ men prefer ignorant rebellion over light!

There would be no exception to this rule without God regenerating men first. God examined our race and found none seeking Him (Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9-11). The light of the gospel is rejected by Jews and Greeks (Ist Cor 1:22-24; 2:14). This is not loving darkness a little more than light ~ God's testimony is.....they hate light (3:20)!

Because their deeds were evil.​

Why do men prefer ignorant rebellion in folly? They are committed to their sin! They do not become evil by rejecting the light of Christ, for they are already so. The light of the gospel includes exposing sin by preaching against it (John 7:7).

John 3:20~ "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."​

For every one that doeth evil.​

He is evil long before hating the light – man hates the light because he is evil. By nature man is committed to doing evil in every part of his life (Rom 3:9-18). Therefore, his reaction to the light of Christ’s gospel is evidence of reprobation.

Hateth the light.​

Note the enmity! There is enmity between the flesh and spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Note the enmity! There is enmity between the flesh and Spirit (Galatians 5:17). It is important to remember depravity is not of intelligence but rather of motive.

Neither cometh to the light.​

Of course, if man hates the light of Christ and His gospel, he will not come to it. There are two faults here – the fault of perverse hatred and the resulting actions. Contrast regeneration ~ both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).

Lest his deeds should be reproved.​

All men are fools and scorners by nature – they do not want to be corrected. Every man can prove their justification here? How much do we love to be corrected?

John 3:21~ "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."​

But he that doeth truth.​

However, there is another kind of man – one living by truth rather than by evil. Thanks be to God for all the inspired disjunctives in the Bible like this but! Truth here is to be understood by godly and righteous choices and actions.

A big question here is whether doing truth is a choice and action of man or God. Can a man in the flesh choose to change his life and commit his life to truth? Jesus already taught Nicodemus that before regeneration he cannot see truth. All that man has within him is lies and the poison of asps (Romans 3:9-19). Only the born again seed and nature of the new man can and will choose truth. Those receiving Jesus showed themselves very different – by God (Jn 1:11-13)!

Cometh to the light.​

This is to believe on Jesus Christ and to repudiate all sins displeasing to Him. In this context, he comes to Christ not to get truth but because he is of the truth!

That his deeds may be made manifest.​

Rather than avoiding any correction of his God-hating life, he wants exposure! Whether conscious or unconscious, it does not matter, he reveals a new nature. True children of God have deeds of truth that assure their hearts (I Jn 3:18-19).

That they are wrought in God.​

It is worked by God’s grace and power, for that is what all scripture teaches. One cannot believe until they are God’s workmanship in regeneration. You can only work out what God already worked in (Phil 2:12-13). The godly actions of the children of God are to God, for God, by God, etc.

Jim, I call these few scriptures the forgotten scriptures of John 3, but a world of jewels found therein.

 

[Red Baker]

The God of Israel raised up that Pharoah, just as He raises up all Pharoahs and kings and rulers on earth. That Pharoah then did wickedly by the children of Israel, not because of God's will, but because of his own lust against the children of Israel.

No one is saying this, why even mention this? He did wickedly because as the scriptures said:

Romans 9:17,18​

“For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

"For" shows that these two scriptures confirms the truth proclaimed in Romans 9:16 which is a conclusion of the first fifteen verses of Romans 9.

God's mercy is vouchsafe to whomsoever He wills to show mercy, and whom He wills, he hardeneth.

Now, the question that needs to be address is this~ what does he means when the scriptures said God hardens folks, like he did Pharaoh and his host, that followed him? Does it mean that God worked internally in Pharaoh's heart to harden his spirit? Absolutely not! That would make God the author of his sin and then unmercifully judging them for their sin by mocking them once they went into the Red Sea after Israel, by removing the wheels from the chariots, so that they could not escape.

It means that God left him to the deceitfulness and wickedness of his own depraved heart (a heart in which he was born with, from Adam) without showing him mercy to him and his host as he Moses and others among the Israelites.

And so, once again Romans 9 has nothing to do with how men are created and concieved in the womb, but rather all about how God elects people after conception, and judges us by our works.

Show me from the scriptures where men are elected after conception in Romans nine, or any other scripture. You cannot, you are making up your own doctrine as you go, that best fits your gospel of works.

Foreknowing is not predetermining nor foreplanning how to create the person.

First, God did not create sinful flesh and blood, Adam's disobedience made them so. All men are born after Adam's fallen sinful nature, a image (likeness) that was the results of his disobedience.

Secondly, foreknowing is predetermining the election of grace of some, and leaving others in their just state of condemnation and perishing, facing the result of the curse of sinning. I have already dealt with 1st Peter 1:2 above.

Later......RB

 

[JIM]

Jim, there's a huge difference between a spiritual slave and one that is one naturally. Those who are servants to sin, love being so!

John 3:19​

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.”

Jim this is the doctrine of total depravity in a nut shell ~ men prefer ignorant rebellion over light!

There would be no exception to this rule without God regenerating men first. God examined our race and found none seeking Him (Ps 14:1-3; Rom 3:9-11). The light of the gospel is rejected by Jews and Greeks (Ist Cor 1:22-24; 2:14). This is not loving darkness a little more than light ~ God's testimony is.....they hate light (3:20)!

Red, You should have started that conversation about three verses earlier.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This sets the stage for the rest of the passage, John 3:16-21. There are two key points made in beginning this passage. The first one is that God loved the world. It doesn't say God just loved a few whom He selected in the very beginning, those you call the elect, and hated all the rest. It says God loved the world. Now this doesn't mean that He approved everything that man does, but that clearly He had compassionate feelings toward them. God hates wickedness, but still he has compassion for them. I truly love my sons and have their entire lives. But there have been times when I simply could not condone their conduct. But that does not mean I ever stopped loving them. God is much more benevolent in that regard than I could ever be. Again, the world here is all mankind. There is no basis for taking this as anything other than all mankind.

The second key point being made here at the very beginning of this passage is that whoever believes in the Son will have eternal life. Believing is the key. And it applies to whomever. Again, not some isolated preselected group from out of the world, but whoever. The next verse lends some additional of God's purpose for giving his only son, a free and unmerited gift to the world.

John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

It was not, as Reformed Theology seems to promote, to pronounce condemnation on mankind. Albeit man certainly deserved that and God had every right to do so. But that's not what He sent His Son to earth to do. He sent Jesus to earth to present an opportunity for pardon from that sentence of eternal condemnation that was rightly deserved. That is followed up with a brief, though inclusive, message on the basis for such a pardon.

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

And once again, the key element in achieving that pardon is presented. Whoever believes in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, will be pardoned and not condemned. That believing is the key is made even more serious with the pronouncement against those who refuse to believe in Jesus Christ.

A significant highlight in all of this is that while, clearly God's Son, Jesus Christ, is to be the recipient of the belief, the burden, the responsibility, is placed squarely upon man to believe. Believing in God, in Jesus Christ, having faith is what separates the winners from the losers. Now with this understanding that faith in God and His Son is key to receiving the pardon being made available to the world, then we can proceed to the verses you posted. I will not bother to get into a discussion about faith, what it is or whose it is. I will simply reiterate that the key here is the believer, the one who, upon believing in the Son, is saved, i.e., given eternal life.

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

All I can say here is that if you see in that verse any statement anywhere close to a declaration of Total Depravity, it can only be from a predisposed bias against the truth. There is not a hint of any suggestion that the people could not do otherwise than love the darkness. That they do is evident; that they can't do otherwise is not even broached in that verse.

Because their deeds were evil.​

Why do men prefer ignorant rebellion in folly? They are committed to their sin! They do not become evil by rejecting the light of Christ, for they are already so. The light of the gospel includes exposing sin by preaching against it (John 7:7).

John 3:20~ "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."​

For every one that doeth evil.​

He is evil long before hating the light – man hates the light because he is evil. By nature man is committed to doing evil in every part of his life (Rom 3:9-18). Therefore, his reaction to the light of Christ’s gospel is evidence of reprobation.

Hateth the light.​

Note the enmity! There is enmity between the flesh and spirit (Romans 8:7-8). Note the enmity! There is enmity between the flesh and Spirit (Galatians 5:17). It is important to remember depravity is not of intelligence but rather of motive.

Neither cometh to the light.​

Of course, if man hates the light of Christ and His gospel, he will not come to it. There are two faults here – the fault of perverse hatred and the resulting actions. Contrast regeneration ~ both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13).

Lest his deeds should be reproved.​

All men are fools and scorners by nature – they do not want to be corrected. Every man can prove their justification here? How much do we love to be corrected?

John 3:21~ "But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."​

But he that doeth truth.​

However, there is another kind of man – one living by truth rather than by evil. Thanks be to God for all the inspired disjunctives in the Bible like this but! Truth here is to be understood by godly and righteous choices and actions.

A big question here is whether doing truth is a choice and action of man or God. Can a man in the flesh choose to change his life and commit his life to truth? Jesus already taught Nicodemus that before regeneration he cannot see truth. All that man has within him is lies and the poison of asps (Romans 3:9-19). Only the born again seed and nature of the new man can and will choose truth. Those receiving Jesus showed themselves very different – by God (Jn 1:11-13)!

Cometh to the light.​

This is to believe on Jesus Christ and to repudiate all sins displeasing to Him. In this context, he comes to Christ not to get truth but because he is of the truth!

That his deeds may be made manifest.​

Rather than avoiding any correction of his God-hating life, he wants exposure! Whether conscious or unconscious, it does not matter, he reveals a new nature. True children of God have deeds of truth that assure their hearts (I Jn 3:18-19).

That they are wrought in God.​

It is worked by God’s grace and power, for that is what all scripture teaches. One cannot believe until they are God’s workmanship in regeneration. You can only work out what God already worked in (Phil 2:12-13). The godly actions of the children of God are to God, for God, by God, etc.

Jim, I call these few scriptures the forgotten scriptures of John 3, but a world of jewels found therein.

You posed a question, "A big question here is whether doing truth is a choice and action of man or God". There can be only one answer to that question based upon that reading of that passage. Again and again, in those six verses the onus is squarely on the man. Who should not perish but have eternal life? It is whoever believes, whoever does what is true. That is the man.

Say what you will, but there is not the hint of Total Depravity in any of that. There is not even a suggestion of the need for regeneration to bring the man to the point of believing. If you want to look elsewhere for such, feel free to do so, but it is not in those verses.

 

[JIM]

Secondly, foreknowing is predetermining the election of grace of some, and leaving others in their just state of condemnation and perishing, facing the result of the curse of sinning. I have already dealt with 1st Peter 1:2 above.

Later......RB

Foreknowing is not predetermining anything. Foreknowing is God's Omniscience of the future. It is totally disconnected from predetermination. In some cases, God's predetermination is stated to be predicated upon His foreknowledge.

 

[JIM]

No one is saying this, why even mention this? He did wickedly because as the scriptures said:

Romans 9:17,18​

“For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.”

"For" shows that these two scriptures confirms the truth proclaimed in Romans 9:16 which is a conclusion of the first fifteen verses of Romans 9.

God's mercy is vouchsafe to whomsoever He wills to show mercy, and whom He wills, he hardeneth.

Now, the question that needs to be address is this~ what does he means when the scriptures said God hardens folks, like he did Pharaoh and his host, that followed him? Does it mean that God worked internally in Pharaoh's heart to harden his spirit? Absolutely not! That would make God the author of his sin and then unmercifully judging them for their sin by mocking them once they went into the Red Sea after Israel, by removing the wheels from the chariots, so that they could not escape.

It means that God left him to the deceitfulness and wickedness of his own depraved heart (a heart in which he was born with, from Adam) without showing him mercy to him and his host as he Moses and others among the Israelites.

Show me from the scriptures where men are elected after conception in Romans nine, or any other scripture. You cannot, you are making up your own doctrine as you go, that best fits your gospel of works.

First, God did not create sinful flesh and blood, Adam's disobedience made them so. All men are born after Adam's fallen sinful nature, a image (likeness) that was the results of his disobedience.

Secondly, foreknowing is predetermining the election of grace of some, and leaving others in their just state of condemnation and perishing, facing the result of the curse of sinning. I have already dealt with 1st Peter 1:2 above.

Later......RB

With respect to all that you have said here, I would like to pose some questions for you. It concerns Romans 9:11 " though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--"

1) what election is being discussed here?

2) what was the purpose of that election?

3) in what manner is that purpose to continue?

 

[Eleanor]

Well for most of us it is long past the point at which we could be sinless. But we can choose to believe in the one who can forgive us our sins.

Actually, you can't even see, much less believe, those things until you are born again (Jn 3:3-5).

Jesus said just couple of verses before that one, "If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." And then a little later He said, "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed".

And that refers to his disciples, not to the unregenerate (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Mr GLee]

Now, the question that needs to be address is this~ what does he means when the scriptures said God hardens folks, like he did Pharaoh and his host, that followed him? Does it mean that God worked internally in Pharaoh's heart to harden his spirit? Absolutely not! That would make God the author of his sin and then unmercifully judging them for their sin by mocking them once they went into the Red Sea after Israel, by removing the wheels from the chariots, so that they could not escape.

I would offer.. When it comes to hardening natural mankind. It could not get any harder than stone dead. God does the softening as a work of salivation if any same with rebuking only Christ

1 Peter 2:5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

It teaches us according to Job 23 Christ who is of one mind always does whatever his soul pleases. No man could turn eternal God.

He makes our hearts soft by the water of the word the gospel of our salvation . The same water he washes His bride or husbands their wife's.(Ephesians 5:26

Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me

In that way he performs that which he appoints to us working in us to both hear and empower to His glory .

Washing us with doctrines that fall like rain, dew, showers inspired from above causes new growth below.

Deuteronomy 32King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Same food (spiritual) in John 4 the disciples knew not of at first. Food to both (hidden manna) to reveal the will and empower then to do to the glory of the unseen Holy adoption Father Abba

Interestingly in the beatiful parable below, called hidden. manna (bread) in Revelation 2:17

Used to represent our daily bread using dew to represent the work of Holy Spirit separated it from corrupted earth. Bringing the pure word of our salvation. Causing growth

Exodus 16:14-16King James VersionAnd when the dew that lay was gone up, behold, upon the face of the wilderness there lay a small round thing, as small as the hoar frost on the ground. And when the children of Israel saw it, they said one to another, It is manna: for they wist not what it was. And Moses said unto them, This is the bread which the Lord hath given you to eat.This is the thing which the Lord hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents.

 

[Arial]

Foreknowing is not predetermining anything. Foreknowing is God's Omniscience of the future. It is totally disconnected from predetermination. In some cases, God's predetermination is stated to be predicated upon His foreknowledge.

There is no such thing as the future in God's economy. So how is it that foreknowledge is God omniscience of the future?

 

[JIM]

Actually, you can't even see, much less believe, those things until you are born again (Jn 3:3-5).

There is absolutely nothing in John 3:3-5 that says you can't believe until you are born again. And the meaning of "see" of verse 3 there is actually the same as the "enter" of verse 5.

And that refers to his disciples, not to the unregenerate (Jn 3:3-5).

You are obviously putting the cart before the horse. It is those who believe that know the truth and set free by being born again by water and spirit.