Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[Arial]

So you can't do what you are telling me to do. Interesting. But certainly not unexpected.

I have done it.https://christcentered.community.fo...t-reference-to-the-human-will.2013/post-86551

 

[JIM]

I have done it.https://christcentered.community.fo...t-reference-to-the-human-will.2013/post-86551

You simply gave an interpretation of a couple of verses that you think support your own biased vies of things. There simply is no scripture the says or even suggests the concept of total depravity. It is said that there are 613 commands that make of the law of Moses. These commands represent God's standard and guide for the ethical and moral behavior of mankind. Are you really trying to tell us that God laid down those 613 laws for which, due to total depravity, man had no ability to choose for himself whether to obey or disobey those laws?

 

[JIM]

He has no wants either. That he wants free will obedience is something you made up.

Are you saying that God didn't or doesn't what us to obey his laws?

Scripture shows that once sin entered our world through Adam there is no free will that can or desires to be PERFECTLY obedient.

No. Scripture shows that since creation, no has ever been perfectly obedient. And that is not the result of anything Adam did. Jesus, coming in the form of a human being, showed that one could be perfectly obedient.

It is fundamental that without the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey there is no such thing as sin. Sin is disobedience. Disobedience is a choice.

 

[JIM]

Jim, anyone who believes they have an active part in their salvation of having their sins forgiven, in any sense whatsoever, are claiming a scheme of their works having a part therein. Be it a preacher must preach, the person must hear, have faith, repentance, water baptism, joining a church, etc.

It depends on what you are defining as an active part. And I think you are wrong in your definition.

The new birth is without all of these on man's part. Remember what I wrote above, concerning even Calvinism:

The new birth is a birth whereby God is the only active person working ~man is totally passive, unware of the working of the Spirit of God within them! From that point (being born again) forward, man has the power/desire to hear, believe, repent, and to seek God in prayer, but "not" until then.

There is no scripture actually saying that. And I don't believe there is any scripture even suggesting that.

 

[Arial]

Are you saying that God didn't or doesn't what us to obey his laws?

Why do ask that when I have already said he commands that we obey? Your statement was not about simply being obedient, but you added to it free will obedience is his "want".

 

[JIM]

Why do ask that when I have already said he commands that we obey?

Can one in a state of Total Depravity obey? Is it possible for the unregenerate to obey the command of Matthew 22:37-38, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment" ?

Your statement was not about simply being obedient, but you added to it free will obedience is his "want".

What kind of obedience other than free will obedience is there?

 

[Red Baker]

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

These are the two bookends on either side of the Scriptures v19-21, that predeterminists say confirms God's preplanned creation of some to do good unto life, and others to do evil unto destruction, without any freewill of choice in doing good or evil.

You are creating what's typically called a straw man fallacy; you have created a corrupt distorted version of the opposing argument to make it easier to attack, rather than addressing the actual point being made.

No one has said, nor do we believe God created man to do evil in order to destroy them. Besides, Adam (and Eve) had a free will to obey, or disobey, and he chose to sin in order to maintain fellowship with Eve, who was deceived and sin. God created man upright after His own image, endowed with wisdom, knowledge and true righteousness, without a sin nature, keeping him from living in obedience to God's command. What God did not do for Adam and Eve He did not secured them in the state in which he created them, he left them to their own power of their fleshly will, which will was not immutable against sinning as God's is. When left to themselves they sinned immediately.

Their sin was their own, not owing to God in any sense whatsoever.

And these bookends say nothing of God creating men a certain way,

Neither does any of Romans 9 say so, that's a creation of your wicked doctrine. We know how God created Adam and Eve from Genesis 1,2.

Genesis 1:31​

“And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.”

but only of God's dealings with men and judgment by their works.

Actually, Romans 9:1-24, is strictly dealing with God's sovereignty with Him doing as he pleases in showing mercy to whom He will, and showing His wrath to others. Just as He did among the angles He created.

but only of God's dealings with men and judgment by their works.

Their works was not even under consideration whether or not God would show mercy, or his wrath.

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

I may come back again to this one scripture later today.

 

[brightfame52]

@JIM

It is said that there are 613 commands that make of the law of Moses. These commands represent God's standard and guide for the ethical and moral behavior of mankind.

Not for Salvation, and the law of moses wasn't for all mankind, but for the National Covenant of Israel. The gentiles had the moral law written on their hearts naturally, but it wasnt for them to keep for salvation. All mankind is totally depraved under sin Rom 3:9-20

9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[JIM]

Romans 9:11​

“(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

I may come back again to this one scripture later today.

What election is being referenced there? It is not election to salvation of either of the two children.

 

[JIM]

@JIM



Not for Salvation, and the law of moses wasn't for all mankind, but for the National Covenant of Israel. The gentiles had the moral law written on their hearts naturally, but it wasnt for them to keep for salvation. All mankind is totally depraved under sin Rom 3:9-20

Does that include you this very day?

 

[Arial]

Can one in a state of Total Depravity obey? Is it possible for the unregenerate to obey the command of Matthew 22:37-38, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment" ?

One in a state of total depravity can sometimes be in agreement with what also agrees with God's perfect righteousness. He does, after all, have a God given conscience. But he can never obey all of the time which is the command of God. Not even the regenerate man can do so because he is still, for right now, in the flesh of Adam. The difference there is being in Christ through faith, therefore indwelt by the Holy Spirit who sanctifies, having had Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to him. His sins have met the justice of God in Christ on the cross. They can no longer condemn him.

But no, no man, not even the regenerated, can love the Lord God with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their mind, all of the time. Every time we turn complacent, every time we sin, every time we trust in ourselves or something or someone else and forget him etc. we have failed in that love. If you do not believe me, read the account of David and Bathsheba, and God's response to David. We sometimes forget that even the heroes of faith in the Bible are utterly human, just like us. Do you, perchance, begin to see the magnitude and glory of what Christ has done? What he has rescued us from?

What kind of obedience other than free will obedience is there?

God does not give a hoot about our will, free or otherwise. He commands. And he also brings to pass. There is no place where we can give any shadow of credit to our traitorous selves. Give glory to God and praise his holy name.

 

[Red Baker]

What election is being referenced there? It is not election to salvation of either of the two children.

Jim, do you truly want to go there? Do I need to go back to Romans 9:1 and give an exposition of most of the ten verses to prove just how wrong you are?

 

[Arial]

No. Scripture shows that since creation, no has ever been perfectly obedient. And that is not the result of anything Adam did. Jesus, coming in the form of a human being, showed that one could be perfectly obedient.

Jesus is the Son of God. Not the Son of Adam. He was perfectly obedient because he came for the purpose of substituting Himself in the place of the sinner, paying their debt (those God was giving to him.) There is a reason why he had to do that, a reason why it could only be God as man who could do it, a reason why no one born of the flesh of Adam, the first man, and therefore the father of us all, could not be PERFECTLY obedient. There is a reason why even though Jesus has already gone to the cross, died, risen and ascended, there is still not one person without sin.

It is fundamental that without the ability to choose whether to obey or disobey there is no such thing as sin. Sin is disobedience. Disobedience is a choice.

No one is arguing whether or not mankind has the ability to make choices, some good, some bad. But the fact is that no natural born human has ever chosen to obey God PERFECTLY. God's righteousness is the standard. And the reason no one has ever chosen perfectly is because he is unable to. Now, why do you suppose he is unable to?

 

[brightfame52]

What election is being referenced there? It is not election to salvation of either of the two children.

Salvation, the entire context is about Salvation

 

[brightfame52]

Does that include you this very day?

It includes everyone by nature, the only exceptions will be to them that God regenerates.

 

[Arial]

You simply gave an interpretation of a couple of verses that you think support your own biased vies of things. There simply is no scripture the says or even suggests the concept of total depravity. It is said that there are 613 commands that make of the law of Moses. These commands represent God's standard and guide for the ethical and moral behavior of mankind. Are you really trying to tell us that God laid down those 613 laws for which, due to total depravity, man had no ability to choose for himself whether to obey or disobey those laws?

It isn't about choosing to obey or disobey God's law. It is about being commanded to obey his moral law, and having been shown what that is, to do so PERFECTLY. Man cannot do it. This is what the Mosaic covenant taught (one of the things). We cannot save ourselves. Only God can save us. We need him. He does not need us. "Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?" Paul cried out, and followed with, "Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin."

And if you remember, which I am sure you do, the account of Paul's conversion; Paul did not choose Christ until Christ first chose him. If he had never met the risen and ascended Jesus on the road to Damascus, and never met him at any other time, he would have continued to persecute Christ's church, remaining in unbelief.

 

[JIM]

One in a state of total depravity can sometimes be in agreement with what also agrees with God's perfect righteousness. He does, after all, have a God given conscience. But he can never obey all of the time which is the command of God. Not even the regenerate man can do so because he is still, for right now, in the flesh of Adam. The difference there is being in Christ through faith, therefore indwelt by the Holy Spirit who sanctifies, having had Christ's perfect righteousness imputed to him. His sins have met the justice of God in Christ on the cross. They can no longer condemn him.

What do you mean by "in a state of total depravity can sometimes be in agreement with what also agrees with God's perfect righteousness"? What does "in agreement" even mean if there is no free will.

Also, please explain what you mean by "His sins have met the justice of God in Christ on the cross". Imputed righteousness does not remove the sin, it only forgives the sin. It doesn't declare one not guilty. It declares guilty but penalty paid

But no, no man, not even the regenerated, can love the Lord God with all their heart and with all their soul and with all their mind, all of the time. Every time we turn complacent, every time we sin, every time we trust in ourselves or something or someone else and forget him etc. we have failed in that love.

So the, what difference do you see between the regenerated and the unregenerated? Does regeneration produce free will or what?

God does not give a hoot about our will, free or otherwise. He commands.

He certainly gives a hoot whether we obey His commands. If you do not understand that, then you do not really understand anything about God. To obey or not requires a choice, which in turn requires the ability to choose to obey or not, which is what free will is.

 

[JIM]

Jim, do you truly want to go there? Do I need to go back to Romans 9:1 and give an exposition of most of the ten verses to prove just how wrong you are?

I hesitate to be so blunt, but in all truth, I don't think you have even an inkling of what the beginning of Romans 9 is all about. That is why you do not get what the end of Romans 9 is all about.

Romans 9:11, for example, has nothing to do with whether or not Jacob and Esau were either saved or condemned.

 

[JIM]

It isn't about choosing to obey or disobey God's law. It is about being commanded to obey his moral law, and having been shown what that is, to do so PERFECTLY. Man cannot do it.

Where does it say man cannot do it? It certainly says that none have, but it doesn't say anywhere that he can't. In fact, Jesus is the example that at least one man did.

 

[Arial]

Where does it say man cannot do it? It certainly says that none have, but it doesn't say anywhere that he can't. In fact, Jesus is the example that at least one man did.

It does say in Romans that no one does. It says all are at enmity with God. And there is also the evidence throughout the Bible that even the righteous because they mostly are and truly do know God, in other words they try to be righteous, fail. And there is both biblical and empirical evidence that none are perfectly righteous, that all are sinners. Don't you suppose that if it were possible to be perfectly righteous someone, in all these thousands of years since Adam, and all the billions upon billions of people who have been born, someone, even more that one someone, would have been, and then they could have died in our place? And then start over waiting for another perfect someone to do the same, and so on and so on. A bit chaotic don't you think, not to mention entirely unbiblical?

Jesus is not an example that at least one man in Adam did. Jesus was not in Adam, God is his Father, not Adam. IOW Jesus is the Son of God, of the same essence then of his Father, and not the Son of Adam, the man of the earth. Jesus came in the likeness of man. Do the math.

Jesus is not an example that man can be perfectly righteous. What he is an example of as a man, is righteousness. You are very close, unwittingly I am sure, of agreeing with those who do not believe in the deity of Christ, when you say he is an example that one man was perfectly righteous, therefore is proof that man can be perfectly righteous. (i.e. @Ghada )