Rom 9: Confirms free will of man

[Arial]

Foreknowing is not predetermining anything. Foreknowing is God's Omniscience of the future. It is totally disconnected from predetermination. In some cases, God's predetermination is stated to be predicated upon His foreknowledge.

There is no such thing as the future in God's economy. So how is it that foreknowledge is God omniscience of the future?

 

[JIM]

Actually, you can't even see, much less believe, those things until you are born again (Jn 3:3-5).

There is absolutely nothing in John 3:3-5 that says you can't believe until you are born again. And the meaning of "see" of verse 3 there is actually the same as the "enter" of verse 5.

And that refers to his disciples, not to the unregenerate (Jn 3:3-5).

You are obviously putting the cart before the horse. It is those who believe that know the truth and set free by being born again by water and spirit.

 

[JIM]

There is no such thing as the future in God's economy. So how is it that foreknowledge is God omniscience of the future?

Do you have a future? You do and, no matter how short that might be, God knows precisely everything about it, most, if not all, of which he hasn't predestined.

 

[Arial]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This sets the stage for the rest of the passage, John 3:16-21. There are two key points made in beginning this passage. The first one is that God loved the world. It doesn't say God just loved a few whom He selected in the very beginning, those you call the elect, and hated all the rest. It says God loved the world. Now this doesn't mean that He approved everything that man does, but that clearly He had compassionate feelings toward them. God hates wickedness, but still he has compassion for them. I truly love my sons and have their entire lives. But there have been times when I simply could not condone their conduct. But that does not mean I ever stopped loving them. God is much more benevolent in that regard than I could ever be. Again, the world here is all mankind. There is no basis for taking this as anything other than all mankind.

It says he loved the world, not that he loved all people. The world here is his creation. He loved the world and that is why he gave his Son. To redeem a people for himself. Through that redemption he defeats the powers of darkness that have corrupted it. The enemy being defeated is death---through the forgiveness of sin.

Big picture. What is the end result but a restored world with all evil gone and God dwelling with us?

Aside: you have stated that you pay little attention to what I say (and yet feel qualified to respond to isolated statements in my posts) and that is deliberate blindness.) If you have studied Proverbs you know what God has to say about that. Listen to him.

 

[JIM]

It says he loved the world, not that he loved all people. The world here is his creation. He loved the world and that is why he gave his Son. To redeem a people for himself. Through that redemption he defeats the powers of darkness that have corrupted it. The enemy being defeated is death---through the forgiveness of sin.

Big picture. What is the end result but a restored world with all evil gone and God dwelling with us?

Aside: you have stated that you pay little attention to what I say (and yet feel qualified to respond to isolated statements in my posts) and that is deliberate blindness.) If you have studied Proverbs you know what God has to say about that. Listen to him.

You have given another silly comment that is the reason that I have decided to pay little attention to what you say. Clearly in John 3, the central theme is people.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For [because] God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

 

[Eleanor]

Foreknowing is not predetermining anything. Foreknowing is God's Omniscience of the future. It is totally disconnected from predetermination. In some cases, God's predetermination is stated to be predicated upon His foreknowledge.

Not quite. . .

Foreknowledge (prognosis) is used only of God's own actions, which he foreknows because he has decreed them before creation.
That's why his foreknowledge is determinative, what he foreknows is his own decrees.

 

[Eleanor]

There is absolutely nothing in John 3:3-5 that says you can't believe until you are born again. And the meaning of "see" of verse 3 there is actually the same as the "enter" of verse 5.

< sigh >

To "see" is to comprehend, understand, grasp.
One cannot "see" the kingdom of God until one is regenerated, born again (Jn 3:3-5) because the unregenerate man without the Spirit cannot accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them (1 Co 2:14).

You are obviously putting the cart before the horse.

Au contraire. . .it is your human thinking which is doing such.

It is those who believe that know the truth and set free by being born again by water and spirit.

Spiritually dead (no eternal life) men do not see nor believe anything of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), for they are foolishness to them (1 Co 2:14).
No one can see or believe anything without being sovereignly (Jn 3:6-8) reborn by the will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), which is not by the will (choice, decision) of man (Jn 1:13).

You are a wealth of Biblical misinformation.
Perhaps Arial can put you on to some sound Biblical teaching.

 

[Arial]

You have given another silly comment that is the reason that I have decided to pay little attention to what you say. Clearly in John 3, the central theme is people.

Why do you consider it silly? That would be what the discussion should be about. Not just your dismissal of it. Prove its silliness, just as I prove yours---and you simply dismiss as more silliness. That is a sign of not being able to support your belief by anything other than an opinion---which standing alone, is no support at all. Your dismissal is both rude and an excuse. I know it, others know it, and most importantly, it is not hidden from the Omniscient and Omnipresent.

Clearly in John 3, the central theme is people.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For [because] God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Those who believe is about people but "world" is about "world", therefore the created world. Does God show his love for the world by restoring it as we see in Is 11 and Rev 21? Does the fact that he created it as our place of dwelling and created it good (perfect since God can only create perfection) imply his love for what he created? He loved the world (that he made) so much that he sent his Son to redeem a people who had brought evil and destruction into that world. In doing that, he "redeems" the entire creation by destroying evil and the evil one from off it, forever.

As to "whoever believes" you left out everything above verses 14 that shows who those "whoever" are.

 

[JIM]

Why do you consider it silly? That would be what the discussion should be about. Not just your dismissal of it. Prove its silliness, just as I prove yours---and you simply dismiss as more silliness. That is a sign of not being able to support your belief by anything other than an opinion---which standing alone, is no support at all. Your dismissal is both rude and an excuse. I know it, others know it, and most importantly, it is not hidden from the Omniscient and Omnipresent.

Those who believe is about people but "world" is about "world", therefore the created world. Does God show his love for the world by restoring it as we see in Is 11 and Rev 21? Does the fact that he created it as our place of dwelling and created it good (perfect since God can only create perfection) imply his love for what he created? He loved the world (that he made) so much that he sent his Son to redeem a people who had brought evil and destruction into that world. In doing that, he "redeems" the entire creation by destroying evil and the evil one from off it, forever.

As to "whoever believes" you left out everything above verses 14 that shows who those "whoever" are.

G2889​

κόσμος

kosmos

kos'-mos

Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.

 

[JIM]

Not quite. . .

Foreknowledge (prognosis) is used only of God's own actions, which he foreknows because he has decreed them before creation.
That's why his foreknowledge is determinative, what he foreknows is his own decrees.

Foreknowledge is not determinative. That what God foreknows is certain, not because he decreed it, but rather because He also foreknows everything that leads to it. Thus in Romans 8:28-30 God foreknows who will love Him, not because He decreed that they would love him, but rather he foreknows everything that they will do, good or evil. And He certainly doesn't decree that they do evil.

 

[JIM]

deleted

 

[JIM]

Perhaps Arial can put you on to some sound Biblical teaching.

That would be the day I quit believing in God and believing in the likes of Augustine, Calvin, and so many who have chosen to follow them instead of God.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, You should have started that conversation about three verses earlier.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

This sets the stage for the rest of the passage, John 3:16-21. It says God loved the world. Now this doesn't mean that He approved everything that man does, but that clearly He had compassionate feelings toward them. God hates wickedness, but still he has compassion for them. I truly love my sons and have their entire lives. But there have been times when I simply could not condone their conduct. But that does not mean I ever stopped loving them. God is much more benevolent in that regard than I could ever be. Again, the world here is all mankind. There is no basis for taking this as anything other than all mankind.

I have a few minutes to post a little, but I plan on resting more today than I have the last few, but, that can wait, this is more important. I do have a few grandchildren here that I need to spend a little time with, but they are busy at the moment.

Jim, I have no problem where to start any discussion, but those scriptures I used this morning were part of the discussion at hand. John 3:16 is addressing a totally different subject all together ~ but since you think it is important to our current discussion, let us look at John 3:16.

Without going deep into John 3:16, let me address only your main point where you said:

There are two key points made in beginning this passage. The first one is that God loved the world. It doesn't say God just loved a few whom He selected in the very beginning, those you call the elect,

Jim, you are showing yourself to be a novice, which you should not be with all the years you have given yourself over studying the scriptures, yet you are doing what any unskilled student of the scriptures would do, or/and, what any person does who looks for opportunities to reject the teachings of a doctrine their flesh does not like. Such people quickly jump on sound bites that seemly would give their position some support.

Jim, I'm convince I ahve discussed this with you before, but just in case I have not, once more let me give you the only true biblical sense that can be given that would flow with all other scriptures from Jesus' words recorded in John 3:16. Jim, very simple to see and understand.

Jesus is speaking to a leader of the Jews, and he is now revealing another truth to Nicodemus (he already revealed the mystery of being born again, that it must proceed seeing, hearing and understanding) now he revealing that God's love is not limited to the Jews only, but for the Gentiles also, by using the word world. World in John 3:16, does not mean all without an exception, as you and others desire for it to mean, but is used to means all without distinction!

Romans 3:29​

“Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:”

Jim, in the OT and up until Christ's death. God was the God of the Jews only, but a mystery hidden in the OT is now made know that He is the God of both Jews and Gentiles, his elect are from every nation under heaven.

I'm stopping for now since there some grandchildren that wants my attention for a while....later....RB

 

[Arial]

G2889​

κόσμος

kosmos

kos'-mos

Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.

Strong's Lexicon
kosmos: World, universe, order, adornment
Original Word: κόσμος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Pronunciation: KOS-mos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Definition: World, universe, order, adornment
Meaning: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.


Usage: The Greek word "kosmos" primarily refers to an ordered system or arrangement. In the New Testament, it is used to denote the universe as an ordered creation, the earth, the inhabitants of the earth, and the worldly affairs or systems opposed to God. It can also refer to adornment or decoration, as seen in 1 Peter 3:3.

All those commas in "usage" and definition, and all those semi colons in the meaning, denote the word "or", not "and". The context then is what determines the usage----the writer's intent. It is not an opinion or presupposition that determines what the writer intended.

 

[Arial]

Do you have a future? You do and, no matter how short that might be, God knows precisely everything about it, most, if not all, of which he hasn't predestined.

But we are not talking about man's perspective. We are talking about God's. How can he know my future by looking ahead to what hasn't happened yet? And now you move predestination into an entire different category from that in which it belongs. Predestination in the Bible and in the doctrines of grace, has to do with what God does for those he elects. He predestines them to come to Christ and be conformed to Christ's image. What you say here about him not predestining everything about my life is about determining, not predestination, and I am not going to get into that topic here. We haven't even settled the one we are in per the OP topic.

 

[Arial]

There is absolutely nothing in John 3:3-5 that says you can't believe until you are born again. And the meaning of "see" of verse 3 there is actually the same as the "enter" of verse 5.

Not precisely. to see in that context means to comprehend something that is invisible. To enter is even more emphatic. But how is it that one is adopted into that kingdom? Through believing (faith in the person and work of Jesus) right? So there you go. We can't believe unless we have been born again of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Arial]

< sigh >

To "see" is to comprehend, understand, grasp.
One cannot "see" the kingdom of God until one is regenerated, born again (Jn 3:3-5) because the unregenerate man without the Spirit cannot accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them (1 Co 2:14).

Au contraire. . .it is your human thinking which is doing such.

Spiritually dead (no eternal life) men do not see nor believe anything of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), for they are foolishness to them (1 Co 2:14).
No one can see or believe anything without being sovereignly (Jn 3:6-8) reborn by the will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), which is not by the will (choice, decision) of man (Jn 1:13).

You are a wealth of Biblical misinformation.
Perhaps Arial can put you on to some sound Biblical teaching.

And perhaps @Eleanor could as well. Great job!

 

[Eleanor]

Foreknowledge is not determinative.

Correct. . .

Foreknowledge (Gr: prognosis) is of God's decrees. . .which are determinative.

That what God foreknows is certain, not because he decreed it, but rather because He also foreknows everything that leads to it. Thus in Romans 8:28-30 God foreknows who will love Him, not because He decreed that they would love him, but rather he foreknows everything that they will do, good or evil. And He certainly doesn't decree that they do evil.

Please present the Scriptures where the Gr: prognosis is used to mean God's foreknowledge of men's actions.

 

[Arial]

That would be the day I quit believing in God and believing in the likes of Augustine, Calvin, and so many who have chosen to follow them instead of God.

Well, since you have already indicated that you would hate God if what the Bible says is true, we can safely presume that you prefer intentional blindness, so no one can teach you a single thing contrary to your first love and gospel----FREE WILL no matter what!

 

[Arial]

If you can't answer the question, then perhaps it is you that has a strange definition of free, in particular free will.

It is hypocritical to get on someones case for not answering a question when you seldom answer questions that are put to you. Just one example is that I have asked you twice if you are a Trinitarian and you still have not answered. If you don't answer this time, I will have no choice but to consider that your answer is "No" and you wish to remain deceptive in your postings.