Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[makesends]

It would make an interesting discussion. My connection to time leaves from reading Scripture, and the more I read Scripture the more malleable time becomes but we are in time so I have to use time as well, but then get tripped up by time...

Yep! —time trips us up, time and time again...

 

[Dave]

Question: How would one believe in their heart and confess with their mouth?
Do you believe one can confess with their mouth by actual faith before believing in their heart?

God draws them.

They believe first, as a result of God drawing them.

 

[Dave]

Then you need to give an explicit and CLEAR definition of regeneration as you are using it.You seem to have a different definition of it theologically than everyone else in the thread has. And yet you so muddy it with illustrations rather than definitions, we have to guess what you mean. That is the first thing that would help.

I, and as far as I know, the other posters have made our theological definition clear. Regeneration is the act of being born again/born anew from above.. The two terms can and are used interchangeably. And that is standard in Reformed theology.

So----give your definition of regeneration. And then your definition of born again. In as few words as possible.

Thank you.

Hi Arial

The problem is the idea of regeneration being used by them is that it doesn't fit with Scripture. Being born again couldn't happen until after a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in Christ. That was not available to OT believers until Pentecost. How do you reconcile that discrepancy? OT believers had faith, but were not born again. OT believers were drawn by God, but not born again. That's Biblical proof that regeneration that is called 'being drawn by God' and the OT regeneration that was a result of that drawing is not synonymous with being born again. It's distinct and separate.

What do I call what happened in the OT? It's some kind of primitive form of regeneration because it's lacking what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit gives a believer in being born again today, but it's not born again. Beyond that I don't know what to to call it. It's regeneration if it's from God, but it's not being born again.

I believe that being drawn by God is the same in the OT as it is in the NT. The Holy Spirit does this from outside the person. If the Holy Spirit draws a person from an indwelling, then that person is already born again. That's not possible. You must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be born again because that which makes us born again is only accessed "in Christ". It takes faith to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and be in Christ to access these things. Faith is the cause of born again. God's drawing is not born again.

Dave

 

[Eleanor]

God draws them.

They believe first, as a result of God drawing them.

The spiritually dead can make no spiritual response.

You can throw a life preserver to a drowned person, but he cannot respond to it.

He must have life to be able to respond. . .which spiritual life the spiritually dead, by definition, do not have.
They must be reborn by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) into eternal life in order to feel drawn and to respond.

 

[makesends]

The problem is the idea of regeneration being used by them is that it doesn't fit with Scripture.

Unproven assertion based on assumption.

Being born again couldn't happen until after a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in Christ.

"As a result of" being indwelt (and/or being placed in Christ, which is rather a strange thing to insert, there,) does not translate to "after" as according to our temporal assumptions.

That was not available to OT believers until Pentecost.

Says who? And what are you assuming that brings up the word "available"—available for their consideration? You should be able to see the assumption, there; you are using what you assume to prove what you assume.

How do you reconcile that discrepancy?

There is no discrepancy.

OT believers had faith, but were not born again.

Again —says who?

This is all your construction, based on your worldview's assumptions. You aren't proving anything, but just repeating yourself in different words.

 

[Carbon]

God draws them.

They believe first, as a result of God drawing them.

They believe because of and by God drawing them? Respectfully, that's a very weak case. Would you please explain the cause of this belief? It shouldn't be very difficult, I wouldn't think.
As it is right now, I think you want me to believe the drawing (which I believe in your way of explaining it's just suddenly noticing God, or that there is a God?) is believing?

 

[Carbon]

Hi Arial

The problem is the idea of regeneration being used by them is that it doesn't fit with Scripture.

Another problem is your explanation of it all is not scriptural. I don't see it fitting wth scripture. I think you need to explain this.

Being born again couldn't happen until after a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in Christ. That was not available to OT believers until Pentecost.

And why wasn't it? What's the problem?

How do you reconcile that discrepancy? OT believers had faith, but were not born again.

They were regenerated, and that's born again.

OT believers were drawn by God, but not born again.

Your opinion.

That's Biblical proof that regeneration that is called 'being drawn by God' and the OT regeneration that was a result of that drawing is not synonymous with being born again. It's distinct and separate.

I do not believe you actually understand the process or the ordo salutis.

What do I call what happened in the OT? It's some kind of primitive form of regeneration because it's lacking what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit gives a believer in being born again today, but it's not born again. Beyond that I don't know what to to call it. It's regeneration if it's from God, but it's not being born again.

Again, your opinion. Keep praying and studying.

I believe that being drawn by God is the same in the OT as it is in the NT. The Holy Spirit does this from outside the person. If the Holy Spirit draws a person from an indwelling, then that person is already born again. That's not possible. You must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be born again because that which makes us born again is only accessed "in Christ". It takes faith to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and be in Christ to access these things. Faith is the cause of born again. God's drawing is not born again.

Dave

I think you keep contradicting yourself.

 

[Carbon]

The spiritually dead can make no spiritual response.

Amen

You can throw a life preserver to a drowned person, but he cannot respond to it.

Right, the dead do not respond.

He must have life to be able to respond. . .which spiritual life the spiritually dead, by definition, do not have.
They must be reborn by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) into eternal life in order to feel drawn and to respond.

Soldier on!

 

[Carbon]

Unproven assertion based on assumption.

"As a result of" being indwelt (and/or being placed in Christ, which is rather a strange thing to insert, there,) does not translate to "after" as according to our temporal assumptions.

Says who? And what are you assuming that brings up the word "available"—available for their consideration? You should be able to see the assumption, there; you are using what you assume to prove what you assume.

There is no discrepancy.

Again —says who?

This is all your construction, based on your worldview's assumptions. You aren't proving anything, but just repeating yourself in different words.

Amen!

 

[Josheb]

God draws them.

They believe first, as a result of God drawing them.

What if God draws them via the new birth?

 

[Carbon]

What if God draws them via the new birth?

Haha. Yes.

 

[Josheb]

God draws them.

They believe first, as a result of God drawing them.

Did you know the word for "draw" used in John 6:44 is the same word used for "drag" in John 21:11? Helko is a forceful, intentional, purposeful, induced, focused drawing, dragging, or persuading and not something done passively. Think of a group of men trying to helko a net full of fish out of water, the net weighed down by water and fish to the point of breaking.

 

[Carbon]

@Dave

Dave, it is true that God gives to His chosen ones that which He requires of them. He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration. This is the same with both the Old Testament saints and the New.

God, by the Holy Spirit, causes them to exercise saving faith in response to His efficacious, heavenly calling. After all is said and done, it is God who is the Author of saving faith.

John 6:28–29​

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

 

[Carbon]

@Dave

Dave, it is true that God gives to His chosen ones that which He requires of them. He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration. This is the same with both the Old Testament saints and the New.

God, by the Holy Spirit, causes them to exercise saving faith in response to His efficacious, heavenly calling. After all is said and done, it is God who is the Author of saving faith.

John 6:28–29​

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

@Dave

I believe we both agree, as do all the Reformed, "faith is an act of man, not of God." It is man, not God, who believes unto salvation. And according to the teaching of scripture, it is also man who repents and turns away from his evil works.
However, this does not invalidate the idea that salvation belongs wholly to the Lord.

It is God's work in man that underlines man's turning from sin to God in sincere repentance. When a man turns over a new leaf, forsakes his wicked ways, and begins to walk the road of righteousness, this activity on man's part is the product of the powerful and irresistible operation of the Holy Spirit in his inward parts.

@Dave do you agree? disagree?

 

[Arial]

The problem is the idea of regeneration being used by them is that it doesn't fit with Scripture. Being born again couldn't happen until after a believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and in Christ. That was not available to OT believers until Pentecost. How do you reconcile that discrepancy?

It is a discrepancy of speculative interpretation. If we take the whole counsel of God into consideration on how anyone understands or believes salvationally, we know it is only by an act of God; it is only by being placed in Christ through faith; it is only by the work of the Spirit; we know that it is by being changed from a natural condition in Adam, to a new condition of heart (a regeneration); we know that it is by grace and through faith. You simply cannot say that this did not happen with OT saints. You don't know that. You cannot say that it was not available to OT believers until Pentecost. Pentecost gave birth to the new Israel---the new people of God, Jew and Gentile alike. Encompassing the whole earth. Just because there was no Christ's church in the OT as we see in the NT does not mean that salvation comes in different ways between the old covenant and the new covenant. It is a New Covenant, not a new way of being saved. It has the indwelling of all those in Christ, instead of a legal written Law. Another expression of regeneration is born again---born from above. There is no need to distinguish between the two. It only causes a confusion that does not need to be there. Jesus said you cannot enter the kingdom as a natural man who has not been reborn in Christ. You must be born from above by the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwelling all of God's people now, is juxtaposed against the Holy Spirit not indwelling all of God's people (geo-political Israel).

OT believers had faith, but were not born again. OT believers were drawn by God, but not born again. That's Biblical proof that regeneration that is called 'being drawn by God' and the OT regeneration that was a result of that drawing is not synonymous with being born again. It's distinct and separate.

First you need to prove that OT believers were not born again. And that is something you cannot do. In order for it to appear as though you were able to do that, you would have to start with some unproven presuppositions and work backwards. Which, of course, would not be proving anything.

What do I call what happened in the OT? It's some kind of primitive form of regeneration because it's lacking what the indwelling of the Holy Spirit gives a believer in being born again today, but it's not born again. Beyond that I don't know what to to call it. It's regeneration if it's from God, but it's not being born again.

Well, I believe that you are restricting "born again" to what happened at Pentecost. And doing so is going far beyond what the Bible explicitly teaches. Pentecost, as I said was the inauguration of a New Covenant that was different from the Old Covenant. The Old had a legal written Law that must be obeyed; it applied to a small (relatively) group of people and in a small area of land, who were singularly known as God's covenant people. The New extends "God's people" to all regions of the earth and all types of people, and instead of a written legal code, has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for all. No legal code is needed for it is the work of the Spirit in them that conforms them to the image of Christ. Progressive obedience. "I will write my laws on your heart."
The NC shifts from external law to internal transformation by the Spirit.

I believe that being drawn by God is the same in the OT as it is in the NT. The Holy Spirit does this from outside the person. If the Holy Spirit draws a person from an indwelling, then that person is already born again. That's not possible. You must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be born again because that which makes us born again is only accessed "in Christ". It takes faith to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and be in Christ to access these things. Faith is the cause of born again. God's drawing is not born again.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It is the Father who draws. It is the Greek word helko and it implies a powerful, effectual attraction (not a wooing or suggestion). It is the Father's sovereign work to bring a sinner to Christ. It is both external and internal but it is not yet the new birth.

Being born again is the immediate and sovereign act of the Holy Spirit where a spiritually dead person is brought to new life enabling them to respond in faith. Being born again is the moment when spiritual life is implanted (given).

You must be indwelt with the Holy Spirit to be born again because that which makes us born again is only accessed "in Christ". It takes faith to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and be in Christ to access these things. Faith is the cause of born again. God's drawing is not born again.

Being born again by the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are not the same thing but they are closely connected and always occur together.

Born Again (Regeneration): The innitial act of the Holy Spirit giving spiritual life to the dead sinner (Eph 2:1-5).
Instantaneous, sovereign, monergistic.
Purpose: to enable faith and a spiritual response. (John 3:5-8)

Indwelling of the Spirit: The ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life after regeneration.
Continuous, personal, covenantal presence.
Purpose: To sanctify, guide, empower, assure, and seal the believer
(Romans 8:9; 1 Cor 6:19).

Regeneration enables the indwelling. You can't have one without the other. The rebirth is the cause of faith and for the purpose of faith.

 

[makesends]

The spiritually dead can make no spiritual response.

You can throw a life preserver to a drowned person, but he cannot respond to it.

He must have life to be able to respond. . .which spiritual life the spiritually dead, by definition, do not have.
They must be reborn by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) into eternal life in order to feel drawn and to respond.

Amen

Right, the dead do not respond.

Soldier on!

 

[Carbon]

View attachment 1129

Haha, and so true.

 

[Carbon]

It is a discrepancy of speculative interpretation. If we take the whole counsel of God into consideration on how anyone understands or believes salvationally, we know it is only by an act of God; it is only by being placed in Christ through faith; it is only by the work of the Spirit; we know that it is by being changed from a natural condition in Adam, to a new condition of heart (a regeneration); we know that it is by grace and through faith. You simply cannot say that this did not happen with OT saints. You don't know that. You cannot say that it was not available to OT believers until Pentecost. Pentecost gave birth to the new Israel---the new people of God, Jew and Gentile alike. Encompassing the whole earth. Just because there was no Christ's church in the OT as we see in the NT does not mean that salvation comes in different ways between the old covenant and the new covenant. It is a New Covenant, not a new way of being saved. It has the indwelling of all those in Christ, instead of a legal written Law. Another expression of regeneration is born again---born from above. There is no need to distinguish between the two. It only causes a confusion that does not need to be there. Jesus said you cannot enter the kingdom as a natural man who has not been reborn in Christ. You must be born from above the Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwelling all of God's people now, is juxtaposed against the Holy Spirit not indwelling all of God's people (geo-political Israel).

First you need to prove that OT believers were not born again. And that is something you cannot do. In order for it to appear as though you were able to do that, you would have to start with some unproven presuppositions and work backwards. Which, of course, would not be proving anything.

Well, I believe that you are restricting "born again" to what happened at Pentecost. And doing so is going far beyond what the Bible explicitly teaches. Pentecost, as I said was the inauguration of a New Covenant that was different from the Old Covenant. The Old had a legal written Law that must be obeyed; it applied to a small (relatively) group of people and in a small area of land, who were singularly known as God's covenant people. The New extends "God's people" to all regions of the earth and all types of people, and instead of a written legal code, has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit for all. No legal code is needed for it is the work of the Spirit in them that conforms them to the image of Christ. Progressive obedience. "I will write my laws on your heart."
The NC shifts from external law to internal transformation by the Spirit.

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

It is the Father who draws. It is the Greek word helko and it implies a powerful, effectual attraction (not a wooing or suggestion. It is the Father's sovereign work to bring a sinner to Christ. It is both external and internal but it is not yet the new birth.

Being born again is the immediate and sovereign act of the Holy Spirit where a spiritually dead person is brought to new life enabling them to respond in faith. Being born again is the moment when spiritual life is implanted (given).

Being born again by the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are not the same thing but they are closely connected and always occur together.

Born Again (Regeneration): The innitial act of the Holy Spirit giving spiritual life to the dead sinner (Eph 2:1-5).
Instantaneous, sovereign, monergistic.
Purpose: to enable faith and a spiritual response. (John 3:5-8)

Indwelling of the Spirit: The ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life after regeneration.
Continuous, personal, covenantal presence.
Purpose: To sanctify, guide, empower, assure, and seal the believer
(Romans 8:9; 1 Cor 6:19).

Regeneration enables the indwelling. You can't have one without the other. The rebirth is the cause of faith and for the purpose of faith.

Respectfully, I believe @Dave is showing a good example of dispensational hermeneutics.

 

[Carbon]

Respectfully, I believe @Dave is showing a good example of dispensational hermeneutics.

And by doing such
Also shows the dispensational inconsistency.

 

[Arial]

Respectfully, I believe @Dave is showing a good example of dispensational hermeneutics.

I agree. Still has God's kingdom divided.