Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[Carbon]

There is no spiritual faith, nor anything else spiritual, in the spiritually dead.
They must be regenerated (rebirthed) into eternal life by the Holy Spirit in order to be able to spiritually believe.

Sister, that couldn't be said more clearly than how you just said it. Amen!

 

[Carbon]

In laymen's terms, I've proven, from Scripture, that a person is born again as a result of the baptism, which is a result of faith.

I just can't help but think that you are trying to prove salvation is by man's free will.

 

[Dave]

How do you get regeneration (assuming you mean baptism here is regeneration) being the result of faith, and not the cause? And would you point out where scripture teaches such? Thanks.

From the context of after the transition .That's how we are saved. We believe, Jesus places the Holy Spirit in us. That's the baptism. That's what makes us in Christ. Every believer experiences this same thing after the transition from the OT to the NT.

Picture someone getting water baptized. We all agree that it's an outwardly physical symbolic testimony of an inward spiritual reality that has already taken place, right? What does it picture? One part that people say, but never connect the dots is that being 'placed into' the water symbolizes our spiritual death, and being raised from the water symbolizes a new life. Born again. It pictures what happens in Christ when we are cleansed from both the penalty of sin, but also the power of sin. We are saved/delivered from both. All this is a result of being placed into Him as a result of faith. Remember we are saved/delivered from both the penalty of sin and power of sin (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus. From the practical side of it (born again), we are raised up with Jesus. That's how we are born again.

Paul using that same imagery symbolized in water baptism, explains the Spiritual immersion (baptism) into Christ, making us one with him as Ha is one with the Father.

Romans 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

If you don't see born again in that passage I give up.

Colossians says "in Him" (the result of the baptism) we are circumcised with a circumcision not done with hands, a spiritual circumcision's of the heart. Intentionally using the same language used in the OT, especially in Ezekiel, about the Promise of the Father that will be given to believers. While this passage also speaks of the legality of our salvation being satisfied, it's also clearly speaking of our being born again. This happens "in Him". We are "in Him" when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The baptism with the Holy Spirit. This baptism is always the result of faith. Believe = saved. Repeated over and over in Scripture. Believe and be delivered/saved. Delivered from the Penalty of sin, and the bondage of sin. Delivered/saved both positionally and practically (born again).

Colossians 2:10-14 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Even Chapter 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

It's a baptism that saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Freed from both the legality of our sin and the bondage of our sin (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3: There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It's a baptism by faith. Please not the order.

Galatians 3:24-29 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What separates spiritual death and and spiritual life? See Ephesians 1-10. Verse 6 answers that question. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Do you see born again in that statement? Do you see born again in those passages?

A person must be in Christ to be born again. There must be a death and resurrection for a person to born again. OT saint had faith, they were drawn by god, they even had a primitive version of regeneration, but they could not be born again. The reason that the agent of that immersion/placing into/baptism was withheld until Pentecost, was because we need to wait for the death resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

God does not become one with what is unclean. Promises don't cleanse Temples, blood does.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Do you see it?

Do you see born again in our dying with Christ and being raised up with Him?

Dave

 

[Dave]

I just can't help but think that you are trying to prove salvation is by man's free will.

No, I'm just allowing Scripture to speak without cramming a system into it. Man cannot come to faith by his flesh.

 

[Carbon]

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

That's faith, bro. Saved by faith. Also see Acts 16:31. It's a simple truth that your trying to complicate for whatever reason. From that simple truth, we know that faith is what brings the baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus, the baptism unites us with Jesus, makes us saved in everyway. Even born again. Line upon line....

Question: How would one believe in their heart and confess with their mouth?
Do you believe one can confess with their mouth by actual faith before believing in their heart?

 

[Carbon]

No, I'm just allowing Scripture to speak without cramming a system into it. Man cannot come to faith by his flesh.

So, that's a yes.

Thanks

 

[Hazelelponi]

Your statement here pretty much tells me what I need to know to understand where you are coming from in this thread and toipic.

Now, if I may,


This is your view of regeneration. This is why no one could give you a reasonable explanation.

The biblical view is much different then yours. It is a supernatural act of God, whereby a new and divine life is infused into an elect person who was spiritually dead, and that by the incorruptible seed of the word of God made fruitful by the infinite power of the Holy Spirit.



Of course, effectual calling would be from God. Unless you have a whole other meaning for the word effectual. But you seem to be using your definition of regeneration again here, you say, "How does God accomplish this without some form of regeneration?"

To the Reformed Christian world, what you are saying is, God needs to partially regenerate a dead sinner before He can effectually call him to salvation. God must make him partially alive so the sinner can discern what the Spirit is trying to do and teach.

So, unless you have another meaning, I cannot help but believe you are a confused Christian. Please consider explaining if that is not your meaning.

Also, biblically speaking. Regeneration is accomplished in a moment, there is no delay in the transition from death to life. And no person can be regenerated so long as he is in the state of spiritual death, but in the instant he begins to live, he is born again.

There is no intermediate state between the regenerate and the unregenerate. A man is either in the spirit or in the flesh, a child of God or a child of the devil, either in the way of salvation or in the way of damnation. There is no middle position here. God's word divides man into two classes, sheep and goats.

Heaven is open only to the actually regenerated,
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Do you believe your view of regeneration is better or more trustworthy than scriptures?

This actually rather helps me with something I got totally confused about. So this does help me.

This does make the most sense. I appreciate the cogent explanation.

 

[Arial]

I actually have proven it, quite clearly, it's trying to get you to see it that's the problem. I'm trying to find ways to help the people here to see it, but I'm running low on ideas.

Then you need to give an explicit and CLEAR definition of regeneration as you are using it.You seem to have a different definition of it theologically than everyone else in the thread has. And yet you so muddy it with illustrations rather than definitions, we have to guess what you mean. That is the first thing that would help.

I, and as far as I know, the other posters have made our theological definition clear. Regeneration is the act of being born again/born anew from above.. The two terms can and are used interchangeably. And that is standard in Reformed theology.

So----give your definition of regeneration. And then your definition of born again. In as few words as possible.
Thank you.

Here is what ChatGPT had to say about Regeneration and Born again.
chatgpt.com/c/683b6fab-6b14-8008-91c6-f06aee67e327

Let me simplify. It's assumed into Scripture that regeneration and being born again are synonymous. Which the people here agree is an idea that doesn't come from Scripture.

Are you sure about that? I certainly don't agree with that. It comes directly from Scripture and those in this thread are not in the habit of presenting not Scripture supported arguments.

Also, it has been stated that faith is the result of being born again. Using John 3:3, even coupled with John 3:5,13. Those texts don't say that. unless you're equating see the kingdom of God with faith, that passage simply doesn't say it. Therefore, faith must be assumed/inserted into that passage. Context was added.

John 3:5 is not coupled with John 3:13 doctrinally. Vs 9-13 go together. Nicodemus asks how can the things of vs 1-8 be? Jesus tasks him how is it that he, Nicodemus, is a teacher of Israel and doesn't know what Jesus is saying. He should have known since he is teaching the Law and Prophets and they are the ones that testify about him. (Obviously Nicodemus had not been reborn/regenerated.)

I said that backwards, obviously.

You said it correctly, just backwards of what you intended to say. And it was not obvious. Why would it be?

After seven pages of saying the opposite...My dyslexia is a nightmare. I try to clean up my posts and make them readable, but sometimes I miss the obvious stuff.

If dyslexia is the problem that is one thing. But you can't expect the readers to know that when all those contradictory statements are made. It is what is making it so difficult to grasp what you are saying.

You can run with it if you like, but that would show weakness in your argument, not strength. Kind of like when a person constantly peppers their posts with belittling comments. It's liberal argumentation at it's best. And one word is added context.

Accusing others of peppering their posts with belittling comments and liberal argumentation is purely a matter of perception, but when expressed in a conversation as though it were a fact, is name calling, and defamation of a persons character. A rules violations. Also, it doesn't replace reasoned analysis. It just reveals bias. Back to the discussion please, not the theatrics.

One word can change the meaning of something and isolate it from its context. But no one added the word "faith" to John 3:3,5. You claim they did, and that they did it in their mind---which of course, you have no access to.

 

[makesends]

I just can't help but think that you are trying to prove salvation is by man's free will.

Frankly, though it seems to come from another person's way of putting things, it sounds much the same as someone who has recently left here, who claimed that faith is "given us" by God, by convincing us of his trustworthiness. Synergism.

 

[Carbon]

Frankly, though it seems to come from another person's way of putting things, it sounds much the same as someone who has recently left here, who claimed that faith is "given us" by God, by convincing us of his trustworthiness. Synergism.

Yes, it sure does, dosent it?

 

[Carbon]

No, I'm just allowing Scripture to speak without cramming a system into it. Man cannot come to faith by his flesh.

I know, you mean preparatory grace?

 

[Carbon]

No, I'm just allowing Scripture to speak without cramming a system into it.

But that's exactly what you're doing. seems to me anyway.

Man cannot come to faith by his flesh.

Well, that's the truth.

 

[Josheb]

What do you want me to reply to? What is this significance that it was born again believers that Paul was speaking to in Romans? If I had seen any significance to it, I would have answered it. I agree, Romans was written to believers. What's the significance with regards to the discussion at hand. Are you claiming that Romans 3:25-26 is not referring to OT saints? I disagree. How does Paul speaking to born again believers change that passage to something else other than speaking of OT saints? Please explain.

Dave

Not just to believers, but about believers. The significance is critical, and it's already been explained how and why.

 

[Carbon]

This actually rather helps me with something I got totally confused about. So this does help me.

This does make the most sense. I appreciate the cogent explanation.

Curious what in particular? If you want to share.

 

[Carbon]

From the context of after the transition .That's how we are saved. We believe, Jesus places the Holy Spirit in us. That's the baptism. That's what makes us in Christ. Every believer experiences this same thing after the transition from the OT to the NT.

Picture someone getting water baptized. We all agree that it's an outwardly physical symbolic testimony of an inward spiritual reality that has already taken place, right? What does it picture? One part that people say, but never connect the dots is that being 'placed into' the water symbolizes our spiritual death, and being raised from the water symbolizes a new life. Born again. It pictures what happens in Christ when we are cleansed from both the penalty of sin, but also the power of sin. We are saved/delivered from both. All this is a result of being placed into Him as a result of faith. Remember we are saved/delivered from both the penalty of sin and power of sin (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus. From the practical side of it (born again), we are raised up with Jesus. That's how we are born again.

Paul using that same imagery symbolized in water baptism, explains the Spiritual immersion (baptism) into Christ, making us one with him as Ha is one with the Father.

Romans 6:3-6 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

If you don't see born again in that passage I give up.

Dave, we are saved by grace through faith. This is something God does, not us.
We believe, have faith because of what God has done. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John 3:3.

You see, Dave, the Holy Spirit, in His regenerating activity, works below our consciousness on the very center of our being, in such a way that we can see the kingdom, and so we turn from sin and towards God and the good freely and gladly.

Colossians says "in Him" (the result of the baptism) we are circumcised with a circumcision not done with hands, a spiritual circumcision's of the heart. Intentionally using the same language used in the OT, especially in Ezekiel, about the Promise of the Father that will be given to believers. While this passage also speaks of the legality of our salvation being satisfied, it's also clearly speaking of our being born again. This happens "in Him". We are "in Him" when we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The baptism with the Holy Spirit. This baptism is always the result of faith. Believe = saved. Repeated over and over in Scripture. Believe and be delivered/saved. Delivered from the Penalty of sin, and the bondage of sin. Delivered/saved both positionally and practically (born again).

Colossians 2:10-14 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Even Chapter 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

It's a baptism that saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Freed from both the legality of our sin and the bondage of our sin (born again) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3: There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

It's a baptism by faith. Please not the order.

Galatians 3:24-29 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What separates spiritual death and and spiritual life? See Ephesians 1-10. Verse 6 answers that question. and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Do you see born again in that statement? Do you see born again in those passages?

A person must be in Christ to be born again. There must be a death and resurrection for a person to born again. OT saint had faith, they were drawn by god, they even had a primitive version of regeneration, but they could not be born again. The reason that the agent of that immersion/placing into/baptism was withheld until Pentecost, was because we need to wait for the death resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

God does not become one with what is unclean. Promises don't cleanse Temples, blood does.

Romans 3:25-26 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Do you see it?

Do you see born again in our dying with Christ and being raised up with Him?

Dave

I hope you will consider what I am saying.

 

[Carbon]

Then what do you call God moving to bring that person to faith, if not regeneration? Remember, you believe that regeneration and born again are synonymous.

Dave, what do you call it? Do you Call God moving, or God's intention to bring about salvation for someone, regeneration?
It may help if you explain yourself a bit here.

Thanks

 

[Carbon]

This idea that OT saints were born again and a person must be born again to believe, flies in the face of very clear scripture.

How so? Please explain.

It's time to confront this.

Well....... Go ahead, I'm waiting.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Regeneration is accomplished in a moment, there is no delay in the transition from death to life

^^^ this.

if in real time it's all at once that helps explain.

The temporal and logical orders can get confusing for me sometimes because of time.

Curious what in particular? If you want to share.

 

[makesends]

^^^ this.

if in real time it's all at once that helps explain.

The temporal and logical orders can get confusing for me sometimes because of time.

To me it is kind of funny about that. I probably shouldn't say that of the members of this site I'm the most adamant about the timelessness of God, but I'll admit there is a lot to make time a substantive thing in one's considerations. But I guess it is off topic to go there. What is funny about it —well, one thing that is funny about it— is that even describing timelessness is necessarily done by the human relationship with time.

I shouldn't be so lazy; to me it really would make an interesting discussion, but I don't feel like taking the effort to start a new thread on it. Ok, maybe I've talked myself into it. Or maybe because it is so 'out there' that I don't really comprehend what I want to say about it. Well, now, THAT'S great —talk yourself right back out of doing it???

 

[Hazelelponi]

To me it is kind of funny about that. I probably shouldn't say that of the members of this site I'm the most adamant about the timelessness of God, but I'll admit there is a lot to make time a substantive thing in one's considerations. But I guess it is off topic to go there. What is funny about it —well, one thing that is funny about it— is that even describing timelessness is necessarily done by the human relationship with time.

I shouldn't be so lazy; to me it really would make an interesting discussion, but I don't feel like taking the effort to start a new thread on it. Ok, maybe I've talked myself into it. Or maybe because it is so 'out there' that I don't really comprehend what I want to say about it. Well, now, THAT'S great —talk yourself right back out of doing it???

It would make an interesting discussion. My connection to time leaves from reading Scripture, and the more I read Scripture the more malleable time becomes but we are in time so I have to use time as well, but then get tripped up by time...