Actually revelation shows that Babylon the Great is first century Jerusalem
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I am not a preterist but those who are definitely feel that Jesus came back in 70AD to fulfill the Olivet Discourse.
Since that is in the first 3 gospels they had to have been written before 70AD because the temple was still in one piece when Jesus prophesied.
As to Rev I believe it was written before 70AD because as specific as John was in recording what he was told he would not have left out the actual happenings of when the temple was destroyed had he written it afterwards.
It speaks of imminence, which is like soon. It is always there until it happens.
No.
If you read what Jesus said in the Olivet, the coming of the Son marks the end of the world, not thousands of years of more existence. Jesus Kingdom comes, crushes Nebuchadnezzar's statue, and fills the whole Earth. I have a feeling that Paul may have told the church that it is Rome that held back the coming of the evil one. That is only because there were early church fathers who spoke to that. One said that he could not understand the command to pray for Rome and its continued existence, when that stood in the way of the return of Christ. Rome didn't end until the 1400s AD when the Turks took Constantinople.
Read this especially point number 10
Below are 10 biblical points bible that tie first century Jerusalem to Babylon the great.
1) Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 18
If you read Ezekiel chapter 16 you will see that God mentions that Jerusalem prostituted herself to the nations. See how it resembles Revelation chapter 18 as God judges that great prostitute who the kings of the earth commit adultery with. There are many similarities between Ezekiel 16 and Revelation 18.
2) The woman in the wilderness.
In Revelation 12:6 & 12:14 the woman (Israel) is taken into the wilderness for protection for a set time. We then find a women in the wilderness in Revelation 17:3 sitting on a beast as John is taken into the wilderness to see. This woman is called the great prostitute. The name on her forehead is
Babylon the great
the mother of prostitutes
and of the abominations of the earth.
If this wasn’t the same woman in Revelation 12 then what happened to the woman in Revelation 12 after the set time?
3) The great city
Babylon the great is called "the great city" in Revelation 17:18 and Revelation 18:21. Not "a great city" but "the great city". A great city could be one of many great cities, but "the great city" could only be one city. Revelation 11:8 says that "the great city" is the city where our lord was crucified. Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem.
4) 1 Peter 5:13 states she who is in Babylon greets you.
This shows that the saints knew who Babylon was at that time. It has been said that the "she" in Babylon was the church in Jerusalem where it is believed that Peter lived at that time.
5) The woman dressed in scarlet and gold.
In Revelation 17:4 the woman is dressed in scarlet, gold and precious stones. Jeremiah 4:30 also says that Jerusalem is dressed in scarlet jewels and gold.
6) Your lovers will despise and kill you.
Both Jerusalem in Jeremiah 4:30-31 and Babylon the great in Revelation 17 are killed by her lovers.
In 70AD Rome did destroy Jerusalem for Gods purpose.
7) The nations will mourn
Jeremiah 4:28 says the earth will mourn at the destruction of Jerusalem. Revelation 18:9,11,15 and 19 all say that the kings, merchants and all who work on the seas will mourn at the destruction of Babylon the great.
8) The cup of Gods wrath
Both Jerusalem and Babylon the great drink the cup of Gods wrath. Isaiah 51:17 & Revelation 16:19
9) A queen and a widow.
In Revelation 18:7 Babylon the great says "I sit as queen I will never be a widow". Jerusalem in Lamentations 1:1-2 is described as a queen who is now a widow. Both Babylon the great and Jerusalem’s friends betray and destroy them.
10) All who have been killed on the earth. This is the most important point.
Revelation 18:20
20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
Rejoice, you people of God!
Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
For God has judged her
with the judgment she imposed on you.”
Revelation 18:24
24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”
Revelation 18:20 says that Babylon the great killed both the saints and the prophets. Revelation 18:24 says Babylon the great is responsible for all of the blood of the saints and prophets and all that have been killed on the earth.
Only Israel is responsible for killing both the prophets and the saints.
Now read what Jesus said in Matthew 23:35 as he was prophesying about the destruction of Jerusalem
35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
Jesus was saying that Jerusalem just like Babylon the great is responsible for and will be judged of all the blood that has been shed on the earth. They must be one and the same. This is prophecy fulfilled.
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Revelation speaks of more than just imminence. It speaks of present "at hand" realities that were then going on, which refers to datable events and persons who fulfilled those then-present datable events in John's own time frame. God Himself defines when an "at hand" prophecy is fulfilled in Ezekiel 12:21-28. It is not "prolonged" into "times that are far off", but is fulfilled "in your days" for those to whom that "at hand" prophecy is first addressed.
Also, Revelation was written at a time when the sixth "king" in Revelation 17:10 was still living, with the other 7th "king" who had not yet come, but would only last a "short time". This pins down the composition of Revelation to a time when that sixth "king" was still alive. Which was prior to AD 63 when that 7th "king" was appointed to serve for that "short time" in AD 63.
You are not entitled to your own dictionary definition of what "soon" means, anyway. "Soon" in scripture has always been used in the sense of something that was going to take place in the experience of those to whom that statement was first addressed. This ridiculous interpretation of "soon" being a state of ongoing, perpetual expectation until the end of fallen mankind's history is only wishful thinking on your part and those who propound the same nonsensical definition of the word.
Way too much eisegesis for me.
You do realize that at hand is the same as imminent, right?
Wow. I guess you are the linguistics expert. OR perhaps this helps "within a short period after this or that time, event, etc.:" If the even hasn't happened yet, then soon could mean the end of time.
Was it really too much eisegesis? There was actually a lot of scriptural direct ties from Babylon the great to Jerusalem.
If it’s too much then focus on point number 10 and listen to Jesus own words.
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No, it's not quite the same thing.
Here is an example. Mark 1:15 is Christ speaking, saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is AT HAND. Repent ye and believe the gospel." Compare this statement to another quote of Christ in Luke 17:21. "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there!~ for, behold, the kingdom of God IS AMONG YOU." This term "at hand" does not mean something is "imminent". It means something is already a present reality that has already begun.
You are dodging the point that I was making about the then-present identity of the sixth "king" of Revelation 17:10. This identified sixth "king" who was still living was a PRESENT reality as John was writing Revelation. "Five are fallen, and ONE IS..." There are datable historical records for that particular sixth "king" out of the entire set of 8 "kings", and his successor (the seventh "king") who had "not yet come" into power for just a "short space" of time. These datable historical records pin down Revelation's composition to being written prior to AD 63 (the year when that 7th "king" briefly came into power), but also while the sixth "king" was still alive.
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Spray and pray doesn't work in video games either. And no, it doesn't tie Babylon to Jerusalem, unless Jerusalem is the birthplace of paganism.
Deuteronomy 7:6
"For you are a people holy to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his own possession, out of all the peoples that are on the face of the earth"
So who are the holy people in Revelation. What did Paul say about the calling and the choosing? It cannot be revoked/recinded. Do you want to know why the woman on the beast isn't Israel? Did you do the math, or just start pulling out verses, and making assumptions. When Israel enters the wilderness, there are 3 1/2 years left. That just happens to be how long the protection of Israel lasts. It isn't Israel. The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years long.
Who else has killed the holy people and "prophets"? Rome.
You may want to look up "at hand" in the dictionary.
"nearby.
"keep the manual close at hand"
readily accessible when needed.
"doctors can have vaccines at hand to immunize any child who comes for treatment"
They are there, but... they aren't holding them ready to inject. They still have to go get them, pick them up.
Or, the definition you should care about:
"close in time; about to happen.
"a breakthrough in combating the disease may be at hand"
Another way to phrase it is, a breakthrough in combating the disease may be imminent.
": ready to take place : happening soon."
Synonymous. Also, the reason it says the kingdom is among you, is Jesus is the king, so where He is, there is His kingdom.
This whole thing denies the reality of Daniel's prophecies. We have a statue, the bottom of which is clay and iron. A revived Roman Empire. The iron legs is the Roman Empire. Then the four beasts are God's view of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, as one can match up each of the beasts to its place on the statue. It is actually a very literal prophecy, even describing the ones heading each empire. It's amazing when you look at how detailed it all is. Paul said that there is one who holds back the evil one, but we don't know who it is because Paul didn't write it. All he said is he had already told them. An early church father basically said it is Rome. Rome is the one who hinders. Rome existed until the 1400s AD, when the Turks took Constantinople. Daniels 70th week has not yet ended, and the church fathers felt the same way. IF we go with your interpretation, then God's prophecies fail. There is way more than 7 years between Jesus death, and the destruction of Jerusalem.
Can you please provide the verses like I did please?
This is who Jerusalem became and why God judged them through Rome.
Matthew 23
13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] [b]
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.
23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]”
And more
John 8
34 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35 Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38 I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father.[b]”
39 “Abraham is our father,” they answered.
“If you were Abraham’s children,” said Jesus, “then you would[c] do what Abraham did. 40 As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41 You are doing the works of your own father.”
“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on my own; God sent me. 43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46 Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me? 47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”
More again
Luke 19
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
And again
John 19
13 When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge’s seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14 It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.
“Here is your king,” Pilate said to the Jews.
15 But they shouted, “Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!”
“Shall I crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” the chief priests answered.
16 Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.
At the time of Jesus death Rome hadn't persecuted the church yet but soon did afterwards so point #10 id still valid and Jesus' own words
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What's the matter...are the scripture's definitions of what "AT HAND" means not good enough for you? God defined that term for you in Ezekiel 12:21-28. If that is too many verses for you to digest at once, then I'm sorry - that is your own problem. Those two verses of Mark 1:15 and Luke 17:21 are the simplest and the clearest example of what "AT HAND" means in scripture. "AT HAND" doesn't mean "imminence" in the sense that it will begin happening rather soon sometime down the road in the future. It means that the conditions are PRESENTLY in place already at the time that statement is made.
Revelation and its identification of the sixth "king" then living does NOT contradict Daniel. Revelation was the first-century unsealing fulfillment of Daniel's "sealed-up" prophecies. And there is no such thing as a "revived Roman empire" needed to fulfill Daniel's prophecy of the image of ancient empires.
The CLAY in the feet of Daniel's statue (blended with the iron of the Roman empire) was the ancient nation of ISRAEL ("...you are our Father; WE ARE THE CLAY, and you are our potter..." - Isaiah 64:8). Israel was not supposed to unite itself with the other pagan nations, according to all the OT prohibitions. However, there came a time when Israel aligned itself with the "iron" of Rome (after the Maccabean victories). Rome under Pompey subjugated the nation of Israel under tribute in 63 BC. This was represented by the unstable blend of the Roman iron and the clay of the nation of Israel in the feet of Daniel's statue, which was broken with one blow by Christ the "stone" in the AD 66-70 period. That "stone" kingdom has been growing in size ever since, and will eventually fill the world with its effects, as promised.
Daniel's statue doesn't exist anymore, since Christ reduced that entire image to dust on the wind back then in the AD 66-70 period. Quit trying to invent a revived statue. Scripture doesn't do this.
Both the "Man of Lawlessness" and his restrainer were murdered in the first century. AD 66 to be exact, when the MOL murdered his restrainer in order to come into power, and shortly afterward was murdered in revenge by that restrainer's son.
And Daniel's 70th week ended exactly 490 years after it began in 454 BC with Artaxerxes I's decree in the 20th year of his reign (including the co-regency with his father Xerxes, which started in 474 BC).
That intact, no-gap, 490-year period concerning Daniel's people ended in AD 37 when God commissioned Paul in the Jerusalem temple to go "far hence unto the Gentiles" (Acts 22:21). All the prophecies and visions regarding the fate of Daniel's people were reserved by being "sealed up" by then (Daniel 9:24). Those "sealed-up" prophecies were the "determined desolations" which decreed the certain fall of Jerusalem and the sanctuary before that first-century generation had passed.
God's prophecies DID NOT FAIL. Christ predicted that the fulfillment of those "days of vengeance" AND His bodily return would happen while some of those He spoke to in that generation were still alive (Matthew 16:27-28, Luke 21:8-36). It is YOUR paradigm which denies that Christ fulfilled His promises in the time frame He predicted for them to happen.
It matters not if the early church fathers failed to understand this. We are not obligated to follow their incorrect interpretations.
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Hmm... he is solely speaking of the religious leaders.
So here is the question. If Jerusalem is going to see Jesus and call Him there King "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord", then why would Jesus consider Himself king of pagan Babylon? Also, you will notice that Jesus says this AFTER the triumphal entry, which means He is speaking of a time in the future. Jerusalem will see Jesus again, when they finally accept Him as King.
This is connected to Romans, where God's plan of redemption is revealed that through the rejection of Israel of the Messiah, the gospel goes to the Gentiles. It also says that Israel will be brought back in after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in. That is, after the elect of the Gentiles are saved, Jesus will go and gather the elect of Israel.
Point 10 is not valid. Israel is not Babylon. Some believe it will actually be a revival of Babylon, which Sadaam Hussein already tried, when he rebuilt most/all of it. How do we know that Babylon is the center of everything? The tower of Babel is there, and Nebuchadnezzar actually reconstructed it.
And that it isn't happening yet, which means imminent. They are synonymous.
Then who is the Rome with the 10 toes? And don't violate Daniel's prophecy in explaining. Rome did not cease until the 1400s AD. As such, the rock that crushes the statue had not come yet, and that is Christ's kingdom. And, the revived Rome is in... Europe of all places. Some believe it to be the European Common market, which at around the start became 10 countries.
I see you don't understand Daniel's prophecy at all. The statue is four empires. There are FOUR BEASTS. There is no fifth empire in the statue to be the ancient nation of Israel. The legs and feet are the same empire, however different. Hence a revived Roman empire. The prophecy of the statue, and the four beasts walk together hand in hand. The statue is man's view of the glorious statue that started, not so much with Babylon, but Nebuchadnezzar of whom God said is the head. Next was the Medes and the Persians. Two arms, two peoples. Then comes the Greeks. If you know about that empire and you read the prophecies together, it is literally speaking of that empire. And then the final empire is the Roman Empire, the legs and feet. Two legs, because Rome had two parts, the East and the West. It's nice how God is so direct in his explanation. The clay being mixed with the iron shows the weakness of the revived Roman empire due to internal strife. They don't mesh together well. And, if you studied the language, the clay is actually ceramic. The four beasts prophecy is how the holy eyes of God see/view the statue. Man's view, and God's view.
There is no revived statue. The statue still stands. Rome (the iron legs) existed until the 1400s. It was not crushed. You violate God's prophecies.
According to the early church fathers, the one who restrains, which Paul never mentioned but to the church he was writing to, was Rome. Now, you can say you did a seance with Paul and he told you who it was, but, somehow I doubt that happened. We can't be sure. The early church fathers said Rome, we say the Holy Spirit, and your stance has no support.
So you are one of those heretics who don't believe Jesus will physically return to Earth as was promised to the disciples. OK. Thank you for stating that clearly.
You do understand that those church fathers had the witness of the apostles themselves, right? There were people who knew Paul who passed on what Paul said. They heard his teaching. This is why Irenaeus said what he said. There were people who saw and heard John who were still alive in Irenaeus day.
OK. The Messiah/Prince is cut off after the 69th week. It hasn't even gotten to the 70th week. After the 69th week. What else happened with this, after the 69th week? The people of the one who is to come destroys the temple and city. This is all after the 69th week.
Daniel 9:26 "26 Then after the sixty-two weeks the [aa]Messiah will be cut off and have [ab]nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And [ac]its end will come with a flood; even to the end [ad]there will be war; desolations are determined."
The Messiah being cut off speaks of death. Have nothing is that He didn't die for Himself, so He has nothing. Israel rejected His Kingship at that time. However, Jesus did say that Jerusalem would not see Him again until they proclaim "blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord". Jesus basically said their rejection would become acceptance.
Jesus death and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple are more than seven years apart. And then we get the next bit. "27 And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of [ae]abominations will come one who [af]makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who [ag]makes desolate.”"
According to those using grammer, the he points back to the "prince who is to come". He strengthens a covenant. This also comes after "will destroy the city and the sanctuary." So how can there be sacrifices and grain offerings during the 70th week, if there is no temple? The temple must obviously be rebuilt. And, if you pay attention to the news, there is a good chance that that could happen in the near future. Perhaps, when peace is struck with the Palestinians, Israel will get a temple out of it? You are fighting against what is becoming a literal fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse, Daniel's prophecies, and Revelation. Jesus is coming soon.
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Yes hand is used to represent will throughput the bible. The time is fulfilled. His will is complete the conditions are presently in place
Psalm 20:6 Now know I that the Lord saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand
Used that way in the handmaiden women that does the will of her master.
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Daniel's angel told him that ALL the visions he had given Daniel were going to be fulfilled by the time God had "shattered the power of the holy people" (Daniel 12:7). That INCLUDED the fulfillment of ALL the prophecies regarding the 70 weeks, AND ALSO the destruction of Daniel's statue of empires. First-century Israel was shattered as a nation by the time Jerusalem was taken, and the temple was torn down to the last stone in AD 70. Even before then, the intact, no-gap 490 years of Daniel 9 (beginning in 454 BC) had already been completed by 37 AD. Because of Daniel 12:7, your interpretation of a modern-day fulfillment applied to this statue cannot possibly be correct.
It is immaterial when Rome as an empire ceased. You are mistaking exactly what was crushed when that ENTIRE statue was turned into dust SIMULTANEOUSLY by the single blow of Christ the "Stone" kingdom. This was not the destruction of the civic, governmental agencies or monarchs that composed those empires, since each of those earlier pagan empires in the past (Chaldean, Medo-Persian, Greek) had already been phased out over the centuries before Rome arose to power, and had each been taken over by the subsequent pagan empire that replaced it.
Instead, it was the ENTIRE Satanic realm of wicked angelic creatures which had been operating behind the scenes of every one of those empires which was destroyed simultaneously by Christ the "Stone" crushing that entire statue in a single blow. It was Christ's mission to destroy the Prince of the kingdoms of this world. As promised, Christ accomplished this by AD 70, which is why He is victoriously portrayed as wearing those "MANY crowns" of the kingdoms of this world in Revelation 19:12. Christ is already the reigning King of kings. We are not waiting for this to happen. He rules, even in the midst of His enemies. We believers as His ambassadors to the world, with His Holy Spirit within each of us, are living proof of that.
Of course there are four pagan empire Beasts in Daniel's image. But the "CLAY" in Daniel's statue is actually another "Beast" - specifically the Revelation 13 "Beast from the Land" (of Israel), which "exercised all the power of the first Beast" in the eyesight of that first Sea Beast (which was the Roman empire's governor stationed in Jerusalem). This blend of the "CLAY" of Jerusalem's religious leadership had been pandering to Rome in order to preserve their own position. This was a very unstable mixture. The Zealots' rebellion against Rome launched in AD 66 brought an end to that Israelite "clay" / Roman "iron" mixture.
The early church fathers were not infallible. They were mistaken on this point. And if you claim this restrainer was the Holy Spirit, scripture contradicts you, since Christ says that once given, the Holy Spirit would abide with the saints forever. The Holy Spirit is never taken out of this world. That idea is an invention of deluded teachers of the Word of God.
NO, I did NOT state that. Please pay more careful attention to what I am writing. I most certainly believe that Christ will return bodily to this earth in our future for the final resurrection and judgment. But it will be His third bodily coming - not His second bodily coming return to the Mount of Olives, which was already accomplished back in AD 70, as promised, before that first-century generation had passed.
You seem to think that doctrinal error could not crop up while Apostles were still living and ministering. That is blatantly false, as Paul testified when he was leaving the Ephesians elders behind in Acts 20:29-30. "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
Paul also wrote in Timothy 1:15 concerning those in Asia who had all heard the gospel of Christ, "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me;..."
False doctrine could and did develop rapidly, back when the Apostles were still alive and ministering in the early church. Simply because the "church fathers" taught something is no guarantee that they were understanding things correctly, according to the scriptures.
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