Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

[ReverendRV]

..Does this mean that our life before the fall was flesh and blood---the life being in the blood and it is blood that our resurrected bodies will not have? And that though Jesus had blood as one of us in His incarnation, for He shed it, He was raised having no blood?

Is it the blood we also shed as in putting it off at the resurrection of our bodies?

I believe Saint Thomas put his finger into the Side of Jesus, and he felt Christ's Heart beat around his fingertip...

 

[Arial]

No, Adam's body was Peccable...

Christ's Glorified body is Impeccable...

Was Christ's body of the incarnation peccable? Hebrews tells us it was in my view as to His human nature. It is His divine nature that was not peccable.

 

[ReverendRV]

Was Christ's body of the incarnation peccable? Hebrews tells us it was in my view as to His human nature. It is His divine nature that was not peccable.

In my opinion, Yes. He couldn't have Died if his Body was Impeccable...

 

[civic]

Does this mean that our life before the fall was flesh and blood---the life being in the blood and it is blood that our resurrected bodies will not have? And that though Jesus had blood as one of us in His incarnation, for He shed it, He was raised having no blood?

Is it the blood we also shed as in putting it off at the resurrection of our bodies?

Great question. Typically flesh and blood is synonymous with human corruption when used by Paul and Christ. Will we need blood in the new heavens, new earth with out Incorruptible and immortal resurrected bodies ? I don't think we can say with 100% surety one way or the other. Personally I lean towards no need for it in the resurrection. Jesus spilled His blood for sin. He declared His Resurrected body was flesh and bones not flesh and blood. Paul contrasts our present body with our Resurrected body in these ways below:

Perishable vs. imperishable
Dishonor vs. glory
Weakness vs. power
Natural vs. spiritual
Earthly vs. heavenly
Mortal vs. immortal

 

[Ritajanice]

I believe Saint Thomas put his finger into the Side of Jesus, and he felt Christ's Heart beat around his fingertip...

◄ John 20:27 ►

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” New Living Translation Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!” English Standard Version Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe

 

[civic]

From got ?

In his first letter to the church in Corinth, Paul discusses the great differences between our earthly bodies and our resurrected bodies (see 1 Corinthians 15:35-54). Contrasting our earthly bodies with the splendor of our heavenly (resurrected) bodies, Paul says, “The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body” (vv. 42-44, emphasis added). In short, our resurrected bodies are spiritual, imperishable, and raised in glory and power.

Through the first Adam, we received our natural bodies, perfectly suited to an earthly environment. However, they became perishable as a consequence of the Fall. Due to disobedience, mankind became mortal. Aging, deterioration, and eventual death now affect all of us. From dust we came, and to dust shall we return (Genesis 3:19; Ecclesiastes 3:20). Our resurrection bodies, on the other hand, will be “raised imperishable.” They will never experience sickness, decay, deterioration, or death. And “when the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable… then the saying that is written will come true: ‘Death has been swallowed up in victory’” (1 Corinthians 15:54).

As a result of the Fall, we are “sown in dishonor.” We were originally made perfect and in the image of God (Genesis 1:27), but sin has brought dishonor. Yet believers have the promise that our imperfect and dishonored bodies will one day be raised in glory. Freed from the restrictions imposed by sin, our resurrected bodies will be honorable and perfectly suited for pleasing and praising our Creator throughout eternity.

Our current bodies are also characterized by weakness and debility. Our earthly “temples” are undeniably fragile and susceptible to the plethora of diseases that ravage mankind. We are also weakened by sin and temptation. One day, though, our bodies will be raised in power and glory, and we will no longer be subject to the flaws and fragility that pervade life today.

Last, the resurrected body will be a spiritual one. Our natural bodies are suited for living in this world, but this is the only realm in which we can live. “Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God” (1 Corinthians 15:50). After the resurrection we will have a “spiritual body,” perfectly suited for living in heaven. This does not mean that we will be only spirits—spirits do not have bodies—but that our resurrected bodies will not need physical sustenance or depend on natural means of supporting life.

We get a glimpse of what our resurrection bodies will be like when we recall Jesus’ post-resurrection appearances. He still had visible wounds, and His disciples could physically touch Him, yet He was able to travel effortlessly and appear and disappear at will. He could go through walls and doors yet could also eat and drink and sit and talk. Scripture informs us that our “lowly bodies” will be just “like His glorious body” (Philippians 3:21). Indeed, the physical limitations imposed by sin that hinder our ability to fully serve Him on earth will be forever gone, freeing us to praise and serve and glorify Him for eternity.

 

[Arial]

I believe Saint Thomas put his finger into the Side of Jesus, and he felt Christ's Heart beat around his fingertip...

Would a beating heart not require blood?

I know that I am now venturing into what is not given but that was not my intent when I posed the original question.

When I first ask myself the question and then looked into it by articulating what followed, I discovered something I already knew but through a different lens. Like a kaleidoscope turning, where nothing is taken away and nothing added, but what we see is deepening. And what I saw was a deeper depth, wading deeper into the living waters, to that total union we have with Christ and Him with us. His profound identifying with us on all levels, that we might identify with Him. It cannot be adequately expressed, what I saw, I know this, but perhaps for some, if need be, the kaleidoscope will turn in the same way.

I am enjoying the conversation and the turning of the kaleidoscope that is the fruit of it.

 

[civic]

This is also good from Don Stewart - Blue Letter Bible

Response

It will be the same body, in some sense, but the body will be a transformed, imperishable body. There is no need to insist it will be molecule for molecule the same.


6. A Flesh And Blood Body

It has been thought that the body of the believer is a flesh and blood body, like the one we have now. The only difference is that it acquires some new powers.

Response

Flesh and blood speaks of our present human nature. The new body of believers will not be made up of the same flesh and blood like our present bodies. The Bible is specific about this.

Now this I say brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:50).

The Bible says the life of the flesh is in the blood.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls (Leviticus 17:11).

The new body we receive will seemingly have a different type of life source. The new body may be bloodless. There is no need for nourishment in the new bodies because the new bodies will never break down. The phrase, flesh and blood, speaks of these current bodies.

 

[ReverendRV]

Would a beating heart not require blood?

I know that I am now venturing into what is not given but that was not my intent when I posed the original question.

When I first ask myself the question and then looked into it by articulating what followed, I discovered something I already knew but through a different lens. Like a kaleidoscope turning, where nothing is taken away and nothing added, but what we see is deepening. And what I saw was a deeper depth, wading deeper into the living waters, to that total union we have with Christ and Him with us. His profound identifying with us on all levels, that we might identify with Him. It cannot be adequately expressed, what I saw, I know this, but perhaps for some, if need be, the kaleidoscope will turn in the same way.

Yeah, it's just Supposition, but it Logically follows that Saint Thomas touched Christ's beating Heart. The risen Jesus was Kosher; just Flesh and Bone...

 

[Arial]

Would a beating heart not require blood?

I know that I am now venturing into what is not given but that was not my intent when I posed the original question.

When I first ask myself the question and then looked into it by articulating what followed, I discovered something I already knew but through a different lens. Like a kaleidoscope turning, where nothing is taken away and nothing added, but what we see is deepening. And what I saw was a deeper depth, wading deeper into the living waters, to that total union we have with Christ and Him with us. His profound identifying with us on all levels, that we might identify with Him. It cannot be adequately expressed, what I saw, I know this, but perhaps for some, if need be, the kaleidoscope will turn in the same way.

I am enjoying the conversation and the turning of the kaleidoscope that is the fruit of it.

Quoted myself because I made an edit.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Good to see you my old friend !

Wait you are not old lol , only us being friends

Older than most.... Thank you!

 

[Eleanor]

Wow!!....wow!...and wow!....a glorified human body....one day we will see him in all of his Glory.....I have always envisioned me running into his arms....and never wanting to leave him...

And he just may not let you go. . .

 

[Arial]

Yeah, it's just Supposition, but it Logically follows that Saint Thomas touched his beating Heart. Jesus was Kosher; just Flesh and Bone...

Very interesting. That opens up a whole new ( for me) aspect of the OT SInai covenant law to explore. Questions I have had, thoughts I have had, with layers added, some no doubt removed.

For example, it is easy for me to accept the statement that the life is in the blood. And there is no forgiveness without the shedding of the blood, and even understand it to a degree, more than I did when I first began, because God says so. (Just as at my first read through of the Bible which began on day one, when I came to the animal sacrifices I said to myself, "I don't like it but God did it so I accept it.")

And bringing in Jesus as Kosher, as you did, no blood, now is causing my mind to connect it to the clean and unclean regarding animals for food, in a way I will need to explore, to put it into the whole. For it is a whole. Not one jot or tittle is insignificant. We will never learn it all and never stop learning.

 

[praise_yeshua]

And he just may not let you go. . .

He is with us now. I have to remind myself of this constantly.....

We have this TREASURE in earthen vessels.....

2Cor 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[Eleanor]

This is not in direct response to the content of this post, but it prompted a question.

At the creation of man, before the fall, did we have this same type of body as the resurrected Jesus? And after the fall did God then change what was an immortal body into a mortal body---and did the same with all things that had the breath of life as nothing can be allowed to live forever in rebellion to God? (In the case of animal life it would be because otherwise they would outnumber us and destroy us.)

And did Jesus as the second person of the Trinity always have a body as He has in the resurrection? (I don't think so as that is part of what He took on to do the work of redemption, but I pose the question for input.) In any case, when He came as one of us, then what He took on was our mortality without having a sin nature as we do, but one that could be tempted by sin as we were at our creation?

And it is this mortal body that He took on that was raised from death to immortality as the firstfruits of what is our certain hope?

IOW He fully identified with us that we might be fully identified with Him.

Jesus could sin, as we can.

I'm thinking the resurrection body, mind and spirit are no longer able to sin, but fixed in their eternal state, as would be the faithful angels.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Very interesting. That opens up a whole new ( for me) aspect of the OT SInai covenant law to explore. Questions I have had, thoughts I have had, with layers added, some no doubt removed.

For example, it is easy for me to accept the statement that the life is in the blood. And there is no forgiveness without the shedding of the blood, and even understand it to a degree, more than I did when I first began, because God says so. (Just as at my first read through of the Bible which began on day one, when I came to the animal sacrifices I said to myself, "I don't like it but God did it so I accept it.")

And bringing in Jesus as Kosher, as you did, no blood, now is causing my mind to connect it to the clean and unclean regarding animals for food, in a way I will need to explore, to put it into the whole. For it is a whole. Not one jot or tittle is insignificant. We will never learn it all and never stop learning.

Consider.... Blood is just a carrier of life. It is not life itself. The "breath" of God gifted to Adam continues on in the life of all Adam's descendents.

I believe a general understanding of "Kosher" here doesn't completely represent the facts. It is close though. Not criticizing just adding to the comments.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Jesus could sin, as we can.

I'm thinking the resurrection body, mind and spirit are no longer able to sin, but fixed in their eternal state, as would be the faithful angels.

Impeccability is a complicated construct. It really ONLY applies to Divinity and the power He shares with others. He KEEPS us from falling. He is that powerful.

When it comes to the Nature of God, there is NO ability to sin. It is beyond the very nature of Divinity.

 

[Eleanor]

1-God created man good which means incorruptible- the fall brought sin, death and corruption.
2- Jesus assumed a human body at the Incarnation, not before. He remains fully human having a human body, soul and spirit like all men.
3- Jesus always was Impeccable for He is God, His Person is Divine. He is the same as the Father and Holy Spirit having all the same attributes as God- He is Immutable. The Incarnation did not change that with Him which is where the heresy of kenosis came from.

hope this helps !!!

Kenosis is about no divinity at all in the person of Jesus.
Incarnation is about both humanity and divinity in the one person of Jesus.

You over-correct the heresy of kenosis by making the person of Jesus only divine.
The person of Jesus is both, the necessary result of two natures, human and divine.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes and I am not questioning any of that. That we know. But was our pre-fall body the same as Christ's resurrected body?

Would Adam being subject to sin make it different from our resurrection body which is not subject to sin?
Probably.

 

[Eleanor]

Impeccability is a complicated construct. It really ONLY applies to Divinity and the power He shares with others. He KEEPS us from falling. He is that powerful.

When it comes to the Nature of God, there is NO ability to sin. It is beyond the very nature of Divinity.

Yes, but his humanity could sin, right?