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Question for Arminians and Calvinists on foreknowledge

Yes His humanity had a beginning as the Son of God, son of man. And He still has all His humanity- body, soul,spirit. Real flesh and bones that is glorified, immortal and incorruptible via the Resurrection. We also have that hope for our bodies to be just like His.
So, "the Body of Christ" (meaning, the Church) is not literal? How do you know this?
 
So, "the Body of Christ" (meaning, the Church) is not literal? How do you know this?
I'm talking about Jesus physical human body, not the church
 
I'm talking about Jesus physical human body, not the church
Ok, then. Why do you think he still has the flesh and bones body he had on earth?
 
Ok, then. Why do you think he still has the flesh and bones body he had on earth?
1 Corinthians 15 and He said that He was not a spirit for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Put your hand into My side, see My hands and My feet . ( they had the scars/wounds from the crucifixion ). There are many other biblical reasons I can list if you need them.
 
I tell you what, there is so much misunderstanding with text at times, crikey I hope my post doesn’t need correction..., I’m in fits of 😅🤣😅😂😅😮😮🤣😅...at times...civic, you are funny at times!..😅🤣😂
 
1 Corinthians 15 and He said that He was not a spirit for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Put your hand into My side, see My hands and My feet . ( they had the scars/wounds from the crucifixion ). There are many other biblical reasons I can list if you need them.
I have always wondered about this....he had flesh and bones when risen, did he not say?

What was he saying?..Jesus.
 
I have always wondered about this....he had flesh and bones when risen, did he not say?

What was he saying?..Jesus.
Yes He did and He is still human with a glorified human body. Some misunderstand the word spiritual to mean non physical but in the context below we will see from Scripture a spiritual body is still a physical body. Jesus body is still physical.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB

Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.

And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.



pneumatikos: spiritual

Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.



Thayer’s Greek Lexicon- belonging to the Divine Spirit; Used 26 times in the N.T.

a. in reference to things; emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character: χάρισμα, Romans 1:11; εὐλογία, Ephesians 1:3; σοφία καί σύνεσις πνευματικῇ (opposed to σοφία σαρκικῇ, 2 Corinthians 1:12; ψυχική, James 3:15), Colossians 1:9; ᾠδαί, divinely inspired, and so redolent of the Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:16; (Ephesians 5:19 Lachmann brackets); ὁ νόμος (opposed to a σάρκινος man), Romans 7:14; θυσίαι, tropically, the acts of a life dedicated to God and approved by him, due to the influence of the Holy Spirit (tacitly opposed to the sacrifices of an external worship), 1 Peter 2:5; equivalent to produced by the sole power of God himself without natural instrumeutality, supernatural, βρῶμα, πόμα, πέτρα, 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 ((cf. 'Teaching' etc. 10, 3 [ET])); πνευματικά, thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, 1 Corinthians 2:13 (on which see συγκρίνω, 1); τά πνευματικά, spirithal gifts — of the endowments called χαρίσματα (see χάρισμα), 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1; universally, the spiritual or heavenly blessings of the gospel, opposed to τά σαρκικά, Romans 15:27; (1 Corinthians 9:11).

b. in reference to persons; one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:15 (cf. ); (); ; Galatians 6:1; οἶκος πνευματικός, of a body of Christians (see οἶκος, 1 b. at the end), 1 Peter 2:5. (The word is not found in the O. T. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3).


Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body


1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;


1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.

Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Corinthians 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;

2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.

Spiritual is used to describe these physical things:

the spiritual man
he who is spiritual
the spiritual rock
the spiritual food
the spiritual drink
the spiritual songs
the spiritual house
the spiritual things
the spiritual body

hope this helps,
 
Yes He did and He is still human with a glorified human body.
Wow!!....wow!...and wow!....a glorified human body....one day we will see him in all of his Glory.....I have always envisioned me running into his arms....and never wanting to leave him...
 
1 Corinthians 15 and He said that He was not a spirit for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have. Put your hand into My side, see My hands and My feet . ( they had the scars/wounds from the crucifixion ). There are many other biblical reasons I can list if you need them.
So, you are saying that the "Body of Christ" (the Church) is not the same as the body of Christ after resurrection, right? In what way, then, is the Church the "Body of Christ", if only symbolically? How is it actual, even symbolically?

You are saying that after glorification and ascension into Heaven, he remains as he was on earth after resurrection?
 
So, you are saying that the "Body of Christ" (the Church) is not the same as the body of Christ after resurrection, right? In what way, then, is the Church the "Body of Christ", if only symbolically? How is it actual, even symbolically?

You are saying that after glorification and ascension into Heaven, he remains as he was on earth after resurrection?
Jesus has a human body and the church . Both are His body. :) it’s not and either or but a both and .
 
Jesus has a human body and the church . Both are His body. :) it’s not and either or but a both and .
With that, I agree. And that may have something to do with us being made in the image of God.
 
Jesus has a human body and the church . Both are His body. :) it’s not and either or but a both and .
Yes, the church is him/ his body....we are his branches and he is the vine.
 
We are made into the image of Jesus, once we have had that living spiritual birth and not before.

As we grow and mature in the Spirit ,we are being made into Jesus image....
 
Yes He did and He is still human with a glorified human body. Some misunderstand the word spiritual to mean non physical but in the context below we will see from Scripture a spiritual body is still a physical body. Jesus body is still physical.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
NASB

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.
NASB

Believers bodies will be transformed from its current state which is corrupt, sinful mortal to a body like His which Incorruptible, Holy/Sinless and Immortal in the Resurrection as per 1 Cor 15, Romans 8:11, Phil 3:21.

And when we compare the above with Paul in these passages below we see that the body(soma) in the context is a real material body which is physical in the Resurrection but controlled completely by the Spirit in the afterlife.



pneumatikos: spiritual

Original Word: πνευματικός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pneumatikos
Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo-mat-ik-os')
Definition: spiritual
Usage: spiritual.



Thayer’s Greek Lexicon- belonging to the Divine Spirit; Used 26 times in the N.T.

a. in reference to things; emanating from the Divine Spirit, or exhibiting its effects and so its character: χάρισμα, Romans 1:11; εὐλογία, Ephesians 1:3; σοφία καί σύνεσις πνευματικῇ (opposed to σοφία σαρκικῇ, 2 Corinthians 1:12; ψυχική, James 3:15), Colossians 1:9; ᾠδαί, divinely inspired, and so redolent of the Holy Spirit, Colossians 3:16; (Ephesians 5:19 Lachmann brackets); ὁ νόμος (opposed to a σάρκινος man), Romans 7:14; θυσίαι, tropically, the acts of a life dedicated to God and approved by him, due to the influence of the Holy Spirit (tacitly opposed to the sacrifices of an external worship), 1 Peter 2:5; equivalent to produced by the sole power of God himself without natural instrumeutality, supernatural, βρῶμα, πόμα, πέτρα, 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 ((cf. 'Teaching' etc. 10, 3 [ET])); πνευματικά, thoughts, opinions, precepts, maxims, ascribable to the Holy Spirit working in the soul, 1 Corinthians 2:13 (on which see συγκρίνω, 1); τά πνευματικά, spirithal gifts — of the endowments called χαρίσματα (see χάρισμα), 1 Corinthians 12:1; 1 Corinthians 14:1; universally, the spiritual or heavenly blessings of the gospel, opposed to τά σαρκικά, Romans 15:27; (1 Corinthians 9:11).

b. in reference to persons; one who is filled with and governed by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 2:15 (cf. ); (); ; Galatians 6:1; οἶκος πνευματικός, of a body of Christians (see οἶκος, 1 b. at the end), 1 Peter 2:5. (The word is not found in the O. T. (cf. Winers Grammar, § 34, 3).


Natural(psychikos) body
Spiritual(pneumatikos) body


1 Corinthians 15:44
it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

Below we see how Paul uses and contrasts the words natural (psychikos) and spiritual (pneumatikos) below;


1 Corinthians 2:14-16
14
But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man.

Paul is clearly contrasting the unsaved with the saved with the natural man and spiritual man. One is controlled by the natural or the flesh while the other is controlled by the spirit/spiritual- Holy Spirit. Just like in 1 Cor 15:44 where Paul is contrasting the natural body that is controlled by the flesh with the spiritual body that is controlled by the Spirit. Both are real physical bodies but the difference is one is controlled by the flesh which is carnal and the other is controlled by the Spirit and is spiritual. One has the appetites and desires of the flesh while the other has appetites and desires controlled by the Spirit. Hence a spiritual body is one that is controlled by the Spirit of God in the Resurrection.

Paul’s usage below of spiritual(pneumatikos) in 1 Corinthians 10 where he calls the rock, food and drink spiritual it does not mean an immaterial rock, food and drink but a real Rock, Manna and Water which were with the Israelites in the wilderness wanderings.

1 Corinthians 10:1-4
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.

Now Paul drives home the point of our new literal physical bodies below in heaven from the text in 2nd Cor 5 below;

2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that when this earthly tent we live in is taken down (that is, when we die and leave this earthly body), we will have a house in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. 2 We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long to put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. 3 For we will put on heavenly bodies; we will not be spirits without bodies. 4 While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life. 5 God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit.

You see there is no bodiless spirit men in heaven unclothed (no body) but indeed with a heavenly body (like Jesus) has now in heaven which is flesh and bones like He said His Resurrected body was to His Disciples.

Spiritual is used to describe these physical things:

the spiritual man
he who is spiritual
the spiritual rock
the spiritual food
the spiritual drink
the spiritual songs
the spiritual house
the spiritual things
the spiritual body

hope this helps,
This is not in direct response to the content of this post, but it prompted a question.

At the creation of man, before the fall, did we have this same type of body as the resurrected Jesus? And after the fall did God then change what was an immortal body into a mortal body---and did the same with all things that had the breath of life as nothing can be allowed to live forever in rebellion to God? (In the case of animal life it would be because otherwise they would outnumber us and destroy us.)

And did Jesus as the second person of the Trinity always have a body as He has in the resurrection? (I don't think so as that is part of what He took on to do the work of redemption, but I pose the question for input.) In any case, when He came as one of us, then what He took on was our mortality without having a sin nature as we do, but one that could be tempted by sin as we were at our creation?

And it is this mortal body that He took on that was raised from death to immortality as the firstfruits of what is our certain hope?

IOW He fully identified with us that we might be fully identified with Him.
 
This is not in direct response to the content of this post, but it prompted a question.

At the creation of man, before the fall, did we have this same type of body as the resurrected Jesus? And after the fall did God then change what was an immortal body into a mortal body---and did the same with all things that had the breath of life as nothing can be allowed to live forever in rebellion to God? (In the case of animal life it would be because otherwise they would outnumber us and destroy us.)

And did Jesus as the second person of the Trinity always have a body as He has in the resurrection? (I don't think so as that is part of what He took on to do the work of redemption, but I pose the question for input.) In any case, when He came as one of us, then what He took on was our mortality without having a sin nature as we do, but one that could be tempted by sin as we were at our creation?

And it is this mortal body that He took on that was raised from death to immortality as the firstfruits of what is our certain hope?

IOW He fully identified with us that we might be fully identified with Him.
Adam was just like us, but with a Live Human spirit. He was Created Peccable, not Perfect; but we are born Evil...

Christ's Resurrection Body is Flesh and Bone, different from Adam's Flesh and Blood Body...

*Adam's Body Devolved but Christ's Body Evolved...


And before anybody criticizes my wording; No, I don't mean worldly Evolution. It's a shame to have to put Asterisks on my statements...
 
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This is not in direct response to the content of this post, but it prompted a question.

At the creation of man, before the fall, did we have this same type of body as the resurrected Jesus? And after the fall did God then change what was an immortal body into a mortal body---and did the same with all things that had the breath of life as nothing can be allowed to live forever in rebellion to God? (In the case of animal life it would be because otherwise they would outnumber us and destroy us.)

And did Jesus as the second person of the Trinity always have a body as He has in the resurrection? (I don't think so as that is part of what He took on to do the work of redemption, but I pose the question for input.) In any case, when He came as one of us, then what He took on was our mortality without having a sin nature as we do, but one that could be tempted by sin as we were at our creation?

And it is this mortal body that He took on that was raised from death to immortality as the firstfruits of what is our certain hope?

IOW He fully identified with us that we might be fully identified with Him.
1-God created man good which means incorruptible- the fall brought sin, death and corruption.
2- Jesus assumed a human body at the Incarnation, not before. He remains fully human having a human body, soul and spirit like all men.
3- Jesus always was Impeccable for He is God, His Person is Divine. He is the same as the Father and Holy Spirit having all the same attributes as God- He is Immutable. The Incarnation did not change that with Him which is where the heresy of kenosis came from.

hope this helps !!!
 
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1-God created man good which means incorruptible- the fall brought sin, death and corruption.
2- Jesus assumed a human body at the Incarnation, not before. He remains fully human having a human body, soul and spirit like all men.
3- Jesus always was Impeccable for He is God, His Person is Divine. He is the same as the Father and Holy Spirit having all the same attributes as God- He is Immutable. The Incarnation did not change that which is where the heresy of kenosis came from.

hope this helps !!!
Yes and I am not questioning any of that. That we know. But was our pre-fall body the same as Christ's resurrected body?
 
Yes and I am not questioning any of that. That we know. But was our pre-fall body the same as Christ's resurrected body?
Christs Resurrected body is eternal and cannot suffer corruption its not a possibility. And His Resurrected body unlike ours now which has limitations seemed not to have those same restrictions. Also will we need food, water to sustain us daily ? There are many unknowns about our Resurrected body and many that are pointed out by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. The pre-fall body was susceptible to sin, death and corruption whereas the Resurrected body is not and the limitations are different. I try and not go where scripture doesn't speak or address.
 
Christ's Resurrection Body is Flesh and Bone, different from Adam's Flesh and Blood Body...
Does this mean that our life before the fall was flesh and blood---the life being in the blood and it is blood that our resurrected bodies will not have? And that though Jesus had blood as one of us in His incarnation, for He shed it, He was raised having no blood?

Is it the blood we also shed as in putting it off at the resurrection of our bodies?
 
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