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Purgatory

I sometimes wonder why people post objection. knowing what the answer will be - or at least - the clever ones do.
But in the final analysis, SATAN'S BEST JOKE on Catholics is when they find themselves in torture in Purgatory!!!

It won't take long before they find out, that it's really HELL, and they're there for eternity because they were never born again at all and are still in their SIN.
 
but you fall into the trap of rejecting Jewish history.
But there's ANOTHER TRAP: Thinking that all Jewish History is meaningful in a spiritual sense.

Bear in mind that the Jews, and their concept of religion was so warped, and inaccurate, that when THEIR SAVIOR CAME as preticted in God's WORD, they didn't recognize him, rejected Him, and murdered Him because their "Religion" had absolutely NO CONCEPT of who/what Jesus was, or what the PROVISION OF GOD for their SIN was. Obviously Judas Maccabeus was into Jewish folklore, and NOT the "Word of God".

SO answer this: SInce the Catholic "Purgatory" is for the purpose of PURIFYING a person, who's "Christian", but needs "processing" to be ready to enter Heaven.

Why, then, would MONEY paid to the Catholic system have an effect on how QUICKLY purgatorial processing can achieve it's goal???

Don Bosco claims (on the basis of "Gregory the Great's private "Vision") that if you cough up $200 to buy 30 Gregorian masses, you dear departed will be sprung OUT of purgatory in 30 DAYS!!!!!

since when does MONEY make somebody "pure".
 
But there's ANOTHER TRAP: Thinking that all Jewish History is meaningful in a spiritual sense.

Bear in mind that the Jews, and their concept of religion was so warped, and inaccurate, that when THEIR SAVIOR CAME as preticted in God's WORD, they didn't recognize him, rejected Him, and murdered Him because their "Religion" had absolutely NO CONCEPT of who/what Jesus was, or what the PROVISION OF GOD for their SIN was. Obviously Judas Maccabeus was into Jewish folklore, and NOT the "Word of God".
I never said "all Jewish history is meaningful in a spiritual sense." They apostatized at times and God punished them for it. You don't need to be so anti-Semitic to prove a point.

DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
4. As the sacred synod searches into the mystery of the Church, it remembers the bond that spiritually ties the people of the New Covenant to Abraham's stock.

Thus the Church of Christ acknowledges that, according to God's saving design, the beginnings of her faith and her election are found already among the Patriarchs, Moses and the prophets. She professes that all who believe in Christ-Abraham's sons according to faith (6)-are included in the same Patriarch's call, and likewise that the salvation of the Church is mysteriously foreshadowed by the chosen people's exodus from the land of bondage. The Church, therefore, cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom God in His inexpressible mercy concluded the Ancient Covenant. Nor can she forget that she draws sustenance from the root of that well-cultivated olive tree onto which have been grafted the wild shoots, the Gentiles.(7) Indeed, the Church believes that by His cross Christ, Our Peace, reconciled Jews and Gentiles. making both one in Himself.(8)

The Church keeps ever in mind the words of the Apostle about his kinsmen: "theirs is the sonship and the glory and the covenants and the law and the worship and the promises; theirs are the fathers and from them is the Christ according to the flesh" (Rom. 9:4-5), the Son of the Virgin Mary. She also recalls that the Apostles, the Church's main-stay and pillars, as well as most of the early disciples who proclaimed Christ's Gospel to the world, sprang from the Jewish people.

As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and "serve him shoulder to shoulder" (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel's spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone.

Besides, as the Church has always held and holds now, Christ underwent His passion and death freely, because of the sins of men and out of infinite love, in order that all may reach salvation. It is, therefore, the burden of the Church's preaching to proclaim the cross of Christ as the sign of God's all-embracing love and as the fountain from which every grace flows.
source

SO answer this: SInce the Catholic "Purgatory" is for the purpose of PURIFYING a person, who's "Christian", but needs "processing" to be ready to enter Heaven.
Rev. 21:27 – nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Why, then, would MONEY paid to the Catholic system have an effect on how QUICKLY purgatorial processing can achieve it's goal???
Another anti-Catholic lie. The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences, and, because of prior abuses, “in 1567 Pope Pius V canceled all grants of indulgences involving any fees or other financial transactions” (Catholic Encyclopedia). This act proved the Church’s seriousness about removing abuses from indulgences.
That was over 400 years ago and anti-Catholics can't stop complaining about prior abuses. Yes, prior abuses; it happened. Abuses is not doctrine.
Don Bosco claims (on the basis of "Gregory the Great's private "Vision") that if you cough up $200 to buy 30 Gregorian masses, you dear departed will be sprung OUT of purgatory in 30 DAYS!!!!!
Another lie you can't document with any link to a source.
since when does MONEY make somebody "pure".
It doesn't. You have been deceived by anti-Catholic liars.

scroll down this long list, and pick one that fits you, and maybe we can discuss it, but not likely:

 
But in the final analysis, SATAN'S BEST JOKE on Catholics is when they find themselves in torture in Purgatory!!!

It won't take long before they find out, that it's really HELL, and they're there for eternity because they were never born again at all and are still in their SIN.
You are fond of your opinion alas it is dong what you are told not to do , that is “ Lean on your own understanding “- so the disagreement comes back to the usual place :authority : those who “ were sent “ to pass on the true faith ( meaning of paradosis , tradition ) to which you must
“ stay true” who were those given the power to “ bind and loose” the the power to arbitrate disputes on faith , have spoken. Purgatory is a real state or place .
You should listen to the “pillar and foundation of truth” more . The church
 
You are fond of your opinion alas it is dong what you are told not to do , that is “ Lean on your own understanding “- so the disagreement comes back to the usual place :authority : those who “ were sent “ to pass on the true faith ( meaning of paradosis , tradition ) to which you must
“ stay true” who were those given the power to “ bind and loose” the the power to arbitrate disputes on faith , have spoken. Purgatory is a real state or place .
You should listen to the “pillar and foundation of truth” more . The church
And the apostles who are the foundation of that church (Eph 2:20) which is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and whose apostolic authoritative words we have in the Scriptures, making the Scriptures the teaching authority, rather than the body of Christ?
 
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And the apostles who are the foundation of that church (Eph 2:20) which is the pillar and foundation of the truth, and whose apostolic authoritative words we have in the Scriptures, making the Scriptures the teaching authority, rather than the body of Christ?
"teaching authority, rather than the body of Christ", is a false dichotomy. It's not either/or, it's both/and.
In order to determine true scripture from false scripture, an authoritive church had to exist beforehand.
 
You are fond of your opinion alas it is dong what you are told not to do , that is “ Lean on your own understanding “- so the disagreement comes back to the usual place :authority : those who “ were sent “ to pass on the true faith ( meaning of paradosis , tradition ) to which you must
“ stay true” who were those given the power to “ bind and loose” the the power to arbitrate disputes on faith , have spoken. Purgatory is a real state or place .
You should listen to the “pillar and foundation of truth” more . The church
I DO listen to the "Pillar and foundation of the truth". Unfortunately (for you) that has nothing to do with the corrupt ROman Catholic religious system. READ THE BIBLE!!!!
 
I never said "all Jewish history is meaningful in a spiritual sense."
Good. We agree on that, and Judas Maccabeus obviously had NO CONCEPT of what God was about.
Rev. 21:27 – nothing unclean shall enter heaven.
SO Jesus work in Cleansing us was defective, and in life we're UNCLEAN in HIM (contrary to Scripture). Born Again People ARE PERFECT BEFORE GOD.

Another anti-Catholic lie. The Council of Trent instituted severe reforms in the practice of granting indulgences
Then explain the "Missionaries of the Holy Family, The National Catholic Register, The Franciscan Missions, and "Aur Lady of Angels Association", all of whom sell "Gregorian masses" NOW to spring people out of purgatory!!!

You apparently have NO IDEA what's happening in your "one True CHurch"!!
 
"teaching authority, rather than the body of Christ", is a false dichotomy. It's not either/or, it's both/and.
In order to determine true scripture from false scripture, an authoritive church had to exist beforehand.
Except that it's the HOLY SPIRIT whom all Christians are indwelled by, who is the one leading Christians into ALL TRUTH (John 16:13 - 1 John 2:27).

The "Holy Roman Catholic" religious system over the centuries, doesn't have a very good "Track Record" of doing that at all, particularly with it's blasphemous "Blessed Virgin" rising in demonic power these days..
 
I DO listen to the "Pillar and foundation of the truth". Unfortunately (for you) that has nothing to do with the corrupt ROman Catholic religious system. READ THE BIBLE!!!!
Lets test that. We know from what the apostles passed down to their first disciples to which St Paul says we must “ stay true “, and also from those given the power to “ bind and loose” true meaning , ( which is why the physical church is the pillar of truth)

That a valid Eucharist is a Eucharist of the real flesh, valid only if presided by a bishop in succession from the first, and in cummunion with the true church. Read ignatius , taught by disciple of John, and iraneus. Then you know what John said John6 meand

And that hasnt changed in 2000 years . Indeed all believed it till 1500

So do YOU have a bishop in succession, who conducts a Eucharist with which “ Jesus will abide in you, and raise you up on the last day?

If you don’t you don’t have the true faith and you do what scripture told you not to do
” you rest on your own understanding”
 
Lets test that. We know from what the apostles passed down to their first disciples to which St Paul says we must “ stay true “, and also from those given the power to “ bind and loose” true meaning , ( which is why the physical church is the pillar of truth)

That a valid Eucharist is a Eucharist of the real flesh, valid only if presided by a bishop in succession from the first, and in cummunion with the true church. Read ignatius , taught by disciple of John, and iraneus. Then you know what John said John6 meand

And that hasnt changed in 2000 years . Indeed all believed it till 1500

So do YOU have a bishop in succession, who conducts a Eucharist with which “ Jesus will abide in you, and raise you up on the last day?

If you don’t you don’t have the true faith and you do what scripture told you not to do
” you rest on your own understanding”
I'm "shaking in my shoes" (chuckle) There's no such thing as "apostolic succession" and for a while back in the Borgia era, Roman Catholic Bishops, Cardinals and Popes were bought and sold. YOur religious system is built on LIES, and politics, and has NO RIGHT to call its self "the Church that Jesus founded.
 
I'm "shaking in my shoes" (chuckle) There's no such thing as "apostolic succession" and for a while back in the Borgia era, Roman Catholic Bishops, Cardinals and Popes were bought and sold. YOur religious system is built on LIES, and politics, and has NO RIGHT to call its self "the Church that Jesus founded.
So you disagree with apostle John and those who he taught on the meaning ofJohn 6

And you think Jesus is impotent to keep his church on track.
And you don’t think Jesus had the power to delegate to bind and loose.

So you also have no new testament because you can’t ageee with those who chose it.

How can you have faith when you think Jesus had no power to prevent the gates of hell prevailing Against his church?
Sad .

You are welcome to believe what you will. But at least try to make your beliefs consistent with those Jesus himself taught!
Jesus said the gospel would be preached to thr end of time, not with a 2000 year gap till bob carrabio re discovered it!
 
And you think Jesus is impotent to keep his church on track.
Certainly not!!! The REAL "Church of Jesus Christ" has been on schedule, and in budget since the beginning, and will remain so until the end of the age.

The REAL Church of Jesus Christ, which HE founded is 100% comprised of Born Again, and Spirit infilled Christians both physically alive, and physically dead from the Resurrection to the present. I'm a member of it myself, and have been for the last 60 years.

Your fatal mistake is that you've convinced yourself that the "Holy Roman Catholic" religious system bears any resemblance at all to the "Church that Jesus founded". You've eliminated the Bible (which you claim to have produced), you teach theological and unbiblical LIES to you congregations, you've replaced Jesus with your blasphemous "Mary thing", You teach that Jesus wasn't sufficient, and needs his mother's advice, and that he really DIDN'T purify anybody with his SIN OFFERING. And you've replaced HIS TRUTH with your man-made ceremonies, sacraments, and Traditions.
 
Certainly not!!! The REAL "Church of Jesus Christ" has been on schedule, and in budget since the beginning, and will remain so until the end of the age.

The REAL Church of Jesus Christ, which HE founded is 100% comprised of Born Again, and Spirit infilled Christians both physically alive, and physically dead from the Resurrection to the present. I'm a member of it myself, and have been for the last 60 years.

Your fatal mistake is that you've convinced yourself that the "Holy Roman Catholic" religious system bears any resemblance at all to the "Church that Jesus founded". You've eliminated the Bible (which you claim to have produced), you teach theological and unbiblical LIES to you congregations, you've replaced Jesus with your blasphemous "Mary thing", You teach that Jesus wasn't sufficient, and needs his mother's advice, and that he really DIDN'T purify anybody with his SIN OFFERING. And you've replaced HIS TRUTH with your man-made ceremonies, sacraments, and Traditions.
It seems you have never read the early fathers.
Youseem to have no idea about the early church, a revisionist view of it.

Even the Romans thought the Christian’s were cannibals because they misunderstood the doctrine of real flesh.
Everyone from the first believed it till the Reformation , and most of us do ever since

The question is not why we believe it, only why you don’t??

So Start at the beginning with the early fathers and , what you discover is the catholic Church

Roman is only a name others gave it When they split away.
I ve guven a list of verses for you to check out on the “ pesky catholic verses “ thread about where Jesus said the sources of truth were, and they were not the new testament which didn’t exist till much later,

As many have said “ to be deep in history is To cease to be protestant”
And thats why thousands of Protestant pastors and theologists of all protestant creeds have returned to Rome.
Because they studied history.

BTW have you called “ kechairotomene “ - Mary completed in grace “ blessed” today the “ mother of the lord”
Shes a very special lady. You owe her a lot. She completed with obedience what eve lost with disobedience.
She is the ark of the new covenant.

We see in the OT that a davidic queen is mother of the king not spouse.
We see that Solomon gave his queen a throne and said he would “ do whatever she asked”.
A davidic king intercedes for his mother.
Jesus was heralded as a davidic king , and did all he could to align to Solomon , such as riding a donkey, knowing his audience would look for meaning Tgere.

So Mary is a davidic queen as mother of Lord. With power of intercession.
We see the power of intercession at Cana, where she asks Jesus to act and he does, but saying “ not yet” till his time has come. His time has now come.
We see at the cross Jesus says “ behold your mother “ and in revelations we are told her offspring are those who keep the commandments.

You dont HAVE to ask her to help.
Just as you don’t have to ask others to pray for you Either.
But you know her prayers are powerful, as intercessor, and as a saint they are there at the throne of God.

So there you have a biblical theology lesson on Gods most perfect creation.

Filled with grace. The Lord is with her. Call her blessed. Kechairotomene .

It is offensive to our Lord how some reformationists treat her.
 
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But in the final analysis, SATAN'S BEST JOKE on Catholics is when they find themselves in torture in Purgatory!!!

It won't take long before they find out, that it's really HELL, and they're there for eternity because they were never born again at all and are still in their SIN.
Truly sad.
 
Truly sad.
That Bob thinks that . Yes true, truly sad.

you answer my question too Carbon.
Do you have a Eucharist of the real flesh, valid only if presided by bishop in succession?

Lets go back to the post apostolic fathers and see who has the truth. You or us.
 
That Bob thinks that . Yes true, truly sad.

you answer my question too Carbon.
Do you have a Eucharist of the real flesh, valid only if presided by bishop in succession?

Lets go back to the post apostolic fathers and see who has the truth. You or us.
I note that you do not go back to the word of God written but to the history of man written.

Wrong standard.
 
That Bob thinks that . Yes true, truly sad.

you answer my question too Carbon.
Do you have a Eucharist of the real flesh, valid only if presided by bishop in succession?

Lets go back to the post apostolic fathers and see who has the truth. You or us.
I do not believe the bible shows or teaches succession. Peter was not a pope.

And if it were taught in scripture, boy did you guys mess that up.
 
It seems you have never read the early fathers.
Youseem to have no idea about the early church, a revisionist view of it.
The early church was so dead-set on spreading the gospel that they sold everything, lived together in true communist form, so that they could devote themselves single mindedly to reaching others with the Word of God. The real "Early Fathers" are detailed in the BIBLE. What YOU think are "Early fathers" came well after the first church and were already incorporating heathen beliefs (like "purgatory", and "mariolatry"), contaminating the purity of the Gospel.

Paul mentions that in HIS TIME, denominations were already forming, and leading people astray.
 
Catholics didn't "Make up" Purgatory, they adapted it from already existent heathen theologies (including Jewish mysticism), and incorporated into their already corrupt theological system.

That Bob thinks that . Yes true, truly sad.

you answer my question too Carbon.
Do you have a Eucharist of the real flesh, valid only if presided by bishop in succession?

Lets go back to the post apostolic fathers and see who has the truth. You or us.
Chuckle!! The "Post apostolic Fathers" were already falling into error, and religious politics.
 
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