Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son

[ChristB4us]

And God is to be worshiped.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped.

How can believers know the difference between the Holy Spirit & the spirits of the antichrist that you say in those movements of the Holy Spirit is not of God like slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement etc. and yet they were worshipping the Holy Spirit?

When you had called on Jesus Christ to save you? Did the devil respond?

So why would the devil respond "sometimes" to believers when they are praying to or worshipping the Holy Spirit?

 

[Fred]

How can believers know the difference between the Holy Spirit & the spirits of the antichrist that you say in those movements of the Holy Spirit is not of God like slain in the spirit, holy laughter movement etc. and yet they were worshipping the Holy Spirit?

There are some Unitarians who claim to qworship Jesus.
That doesn't mean they are worshiping Jesus because they deny He is God.
They are actually worshiping a false Jesus.

When you had called on Jesus Christ to save you?

Decades ago.

Did the devil respond?

I don't know, but I was now a child of God.

So why would the devil respond "sometimes" to believers when they are praying to or worshipping the Holy Spirit?

If they aren't a Christian, then the devil can deceive them (Acts 19:13-16).

 

[ChristB4us]

Thanks for your admission of being a non-Trinitarian.

You are confused about Matthew 24:36. The Lord Jesus (through the Holy Spirit) only spoke the words the Father told Him to say (John 12:49-50; 15:15). It was only the words that the Father gave Him to speak morning by morning (Isaiah 50:4) are what He testified to (John 3:32). The precise timing of His return was not revealed to Him by the Father to speak that particular morning. Thus He could not testify to it.

You ought to read Revelation 5:12 and Revelation 7:12 because the Father and the Son are ascribed the attribute of 'wisdom' in equality.

I believe in the Triune God and so you have to explain the verse 32 below.

Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. KJV

This does not speak against the Triune God but how They are each a separate Person as a separate Witness within the Godhead as it is also specified that it is the Father's will to be done and not the Son's will nor the will of the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity doctrine of co-equalness is a bit more complicated in scripture than the Trinity doctrine allows, but the Three are One God.

 

[Fred]

I believe in the Triune God

Then you would not deny the omniscience of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

and so you have to explain the verse 32 below.

I already did in post 148.

 

[ChristB4us]

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (NASB, 1995)

This passage constitutes a prayer to all 3 members of the Trinity.

a. Frederick Danker: This benediction is the climax of Paul's closing prayerful approach that had begun at v. 7 (2 Corinthians, Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament, page 213).

b. Albert Barnes: In regard to this closing verse of the Epistle, we may make the following remarks:
(1) It is a prayer; and if it is a prayer addressed to God, it is no less so to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit. If so, it is right to offer worship to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.
(2) there is a distinction in the divine nature; or there is the existence of what is usually termed three persons in the Godhead. If not, why are they mentioned in this manner? If the Lord Jesus is not divine and equal with the Father, why is he mentioned in this connection? How strange it would be for Paul, an inspired man, to pray in the same breath, "the grace of a man or an angel" and "the love of God" be with you! And if the "Holy Spirit" be merely an influence of God or an attribute of God, how strange to pray that the "love of God" and the participation or fellowship of an "influence of God," or an "attribute of God" might be with them!
(3) the Holy Spirit is a person, or has a distinct personality. He is not an attribute of God, nor a mere divine influence. How could prayer be addressed to an attribute, or an influence? But here, nothing can be plainer than that there were favors which the Holy Spirit, as an intelligent and conscious agent, was expected to bestow. And nothing can be plainer than that they were favors in some sense distinct from those which were conferred by the Lord Jesus, and by the Father. Here is a distinction of some kind as real as that between the Lord Jesus and the Father; here are favors expected from him distinct from those conferred by the Father and the Son; and there is, therefore, here all the proof that there can be, that there is in some respects a distinction between the persons here referred to and that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent, conscious agent.
(4) the Lord Jesus is not inferior to the Father, that is, he has an equality with God. If he were not equal, how could he be mentioned, as he here is, as bestowing favors like God, and especially why is he mentioned first? Would Paul, in invoking blessings, mention the name of a mere man or an angel before that of the eternal God?
(5) the passage, therefore, furnishes a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity that has not yet been answered, and, it is believed, cannot be. On the supposition that there are three persons in the adorable Trinity, united in essence and yet distinct in some respects, all is plain and clear. But on the supposition that, the Lord Jesus is a mere man, an angel, or an archangel, and that the Holy Spirit is an attribute, or an influence from God, how unintelligible, confused, strange does all become! That Paul, in the solemn close of the Epistle, should at the same time invoke blessings from a mere creature, and from God, and from an attribute, surpasses belief. But that he should invoke blessings from him who was the equal with the Father, and from the Father himself, and from the Sacred Spirit sustaining the same rank, and in like manner imparting important blessings, is in accordance with all that we should expect, and makes all harmonious and appropriate.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/2-corinthians-13.html#1

You are resorting to commentaries now. I say Albert Barnes is wrong.

Look at it in this way; the curch now since teh Nicene creeds include the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the son BUT nowhere in the N.T. does it teach the churches nor the believers to practice plainly in that way but it does speak specifically how the father wants to be honored by and how the father will be glorified by and that is by the only way of the Son as plainly written in scriptures for us to do.

It even warns us that when we are not honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: 23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

If the latter part of verse 23 was not written, then there would be no need to discern that honoring the Holy Spirit is not how we are to honor the Father by, but it is written because Jesus meant what He has said that when we are NOT honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father.

So in rightly dividing the word of truth, honoring the holy Spirit is not honoring the Son nor honoring the Father.

 

[Fred]

I say Albert Barnes is wrong.

which part? and why?

Look at it in this way; the curch now since teh Nicene creeds include the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the son BUT nowhere in the N.T. does it teach the churches nor the believers to practice plainly

The use of "Lord" and other personal pronouns in the New Testament.
Do they always plainly specify to whom is being referred to?

 

[ChristB4us]

Then you would not deny the omniscience of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Not really.

I already did in post 148.

Glanced at that and not read it thoroughly. Trying to catch up on all the notifications.

You are confused about Matthew 24:36. The Lord Jesus (through the Holy Spirit) only spoke the words the Father told Him to say (John 12:49-50; 15:15). It was only the words that the Father gave Him to speak morning by morning (Isaiah 50:4) are what He testified to (John 3:32). The precise timing of His return was not revealed to Him by the Father to speak that particular morning. Thus He could not testify to it.

You ought to read Revelation 5:12 and Revelation 7:12 because the Father and the Son are ascribed the attribute of 'wisdom' in equality.

Okay. You may see that as a reasonable conclusion to this but is that denying Jesus of His deity on earth? The way you are going, is that not what you are trying to say here?

And let us say that the knowledge was limited because Jesus was on earth, and so now ascended, He would have that knowledge now, right? Is that not what you are saying?

So why didn't the apostle John testify to that hour and day of the pre great tribulation rapture when writing the Book of Revelation?

Why didn't Jesus then, tell John that hour & day when the rapture aka the appearing of the Son of Man was to be?

Why didn't Jesus through the Holy Spirit's manifestations in the early churches give us the hour & the day when that would be?

Ever noticed how many date setters have predicted the rapture & were proven false?

So it looks to me that the Son still does not know yet because it is the Father's will not for Him to know and therefore not for the Holy Spirit to know which proves the Three are separate Persons within the Godhead. Yes? This does deny Jesus nor the Holy Spirit as God.

 

[Fred]

Not really.

See the last section.

Glanced at that and not read it thoroughly. Trying to catch up on all the notifications.

Okay. You may see that as a reasonable conclusion to this but is that denying Jesus of His deity on earth? The way you are going, is that not what you are trying to say here?

No.

And let us say that the knowledge was limited because Jesus was on earth, and so now ascended, He would have that knowledge now, right? Is that not what you are saying?

Always had it.

So why didn't the apostle John testify to that hour and day of the pre great tribulation rapture when writing the Book of Revelation?

John wasn't told to do so.

Why didn't Jesus then, tell John that hour & day when the rapture aka the appearing of the Son of Man was to be?

Did Jesus have to?

Why didn't Jesus through the Holy Spirit's manifestations in the early churches give us the hour & the day when that would be?

Why would He have to?

Ever noticed how many date setters have predicted the rapture & were proven false?

Quite a few.

So it looks to me that the Son still does not know yet

Which would be a denial of His omniscience.
So when you affirm "not really" it is really a denial.

I brought this up earlier, how can Jesus be worshiped for possessing the attribute of 'wisdom' in Revelation 5:12 if He is not omniscient?

 

[ChristB4us]

which part? and why?

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

That is a benediction written to believers reading it and not a prayer to the Holy Spirit. It is blessing the reader with the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all since Jesus Christ & God the Father & the Holy Spirit is with us all as a testimon7 from the Triune God that God is with us and thus always saved.
John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.... 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The use of "Lord" and other personal pronouns in the New Testament.
Do they always plainly specify to whom is being referred to?

In Philippians 2:11, it does.

Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
That is how God the Father is only glorified by that Jesus Christ is Lord. That is the mind of Christ we are to have & obey in worship.

Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus never taught to pray "only" to the Father.

But Jesus did teach us to pray to the Father and no example was given for praying to the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

 

[Fred]

2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

That is a benediction

A benediction is a blessing which means it is a prayer.

 

[Fred]

But Jesus did teach us to pray to the Father and no example was given for praying to the Holy Spirit.

We are to worship God.
The Holy Spirit is God, so He is to be worshiped.

If a Christian shouted joyfully, "God, I love you!" does the Holy Spirit close His ears?

 

[ChristB4us]

Always had it.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

John wasn't told to do so.

He saw the future and described what he was seeing as best he could, but apparently, the hour & the day was not obvious to him.

Did Jesus have to?
Why would He have to?

For your case to be true which you had assumed that he had always known but per Mark 13:32, He does not know that day nor hour still.

Quite a few.

Which would be a denial of His omniscience.
So when you affirm "not really" it is really a denial.

I brought this up earlier, how can Jesus be worshiped for possessing the attribute of 'wisdom' in Revelation 5:12 if He is not omniscient?

Since it is the Father's will be done and not His own, it is when the Father says it is time for Him to go get the church and not before; therefore the Son does not know yet the hour let alone the day but He knows everything else as God.

 

[Eleanor]

That's interesting (and sad) you are taking the approach by some Unitarians.

They also use your logic?

 

[Fred]

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

Can you read?
I already addressed this.

Comment on what I have written. Don't just throw the verse back at me.

 

[Fred]

They also use your logic?

No.
Yours.

 

[ChristB4us]

A benediction is a blessing which means it is a prayer.

I do not see it as offering it to Heaven but a blessing given to the people as led by God for us to do in blessing others.

I understand how and why you would see it that way but when believers bless others, it is not praying to God in the hopes He will bless them but they are blessing them as God would want us & lead us to bless even our enemies.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 

[Fred]

I do not see it as offering it to Heaven but a blessing given to the people

When people are blessed it is a prayer to God (Numbers 6:24-27).

 

[Eleanor]

No.
Yours.

Good!

Because their denial of the Trinity is not based in logic, it is based in unbelief of the NT testimony.

 

[Fred]

Good!

Thanks for making this easy for me.