Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son

[Eleanor]

Strawman.
Great

And God is to be worshiped.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is to be worshiped.

And God is the Father.
The Holy Spirit is God.
Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Father.

 

[Keiw1]

1 Kings 8:38-39
whatever prayer...is made...then hear in heaven...for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men. (NASB)

Since the Father (Jeremiah 17:10), the Son (Revelation 2:23), and the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10) fully know the hearts of all, then all three Persons of the Trinity are the proper recipient of prayer.


Notice the word alone - this is also proof that no other created being is to be prayed to (Mary, and/or other 'saints').

Jesus was 100% clear--This is the way you should pray--Our Father.-- no mention of praying to the son or HS.

 

[makesends]

NIV "In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God."

KJV "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."
I'm not seeing a lot of difference there.

The KJV and a few modern bibles has it right in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His own groanings from Himself.

Actually, that's a paraphrase at best, and not what even the Textus Receptus says.

~~~ Quoted from Link "In addition to their many doctrinal heresies, strong evidence exists from the writings of both Westcott and Hort that they were involved in occult activities during the time they prepared their Greek New Testament.

Apparently you can't see it likely that God preserved his word in spite of the faults of two men with bad hearts. I'd like to ask you, what makes you think those who produced the Textus Receptus and the KJV were altogether full of integrity and without bias or fault? King James himself was certainly no role model. His reasons for that work were not holy.

 

[makesends]

Like how they had translated Romans 8:26-27 as if the Holy Spirit is uttering like a medium does when channeling spirits? I see that.

Well! I had been thinking all along that Wescott & Hort were compiling a Greek document. I didn't hear about a translation. This is news.

 

[Fred]

Jesus was 100% clear--This is the way you should pray--Our Father.-- no mention of praying to the son or HS.

Jesus never taught to pray "only" to the Father.

 

[Fred]

Thus, the Holy Spirit is the Father.

You already claimed you were not a Modalist, but now you are teaching it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Do be aware that Unitarianism can infiltrate your church. They also hold that the Holy Spirit is not omniscient.

Just citing one knowledge the Father has that neither the Son knows nor the Holy Spirit does not make either One of them not omniscient nor the deity of either one of them.

 

[Fred]

Just citing one knowledge the Father has that neither the Son knows nor the Holy Spirit does not make either One of them not omniscient nor the deity of either one of them.

Thanks for your admission of being a non-Trinitarian.

You are confused about Matthew 24:36. The Lord Jesus (through the Holy Spirit) only spoke the words the Father told Him to say (John 12:49-50; 15:15). It was only the words that the Father gave Him to speak morning by morning (Isaiah 50:4) are what He testified to (John 3:32). The precise timing of His return was not revealed to Him by the Father to speak that particular morning. Thus He could not testify to it.

You ought to read Revelation 5:12 and Revelation 7:12 because the Father and the Son are ascribed the attribute of 'wisdom' in equality.

 

[Fred]

worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

2 Corinthians 13:14
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (NASB, 1995)

This passage constitutes a prayer to all 3 members of the Trinity.

a. Frederick Danker: This benediction is the climax of Paul's closing prayerful approach that had begun at v. 7 (2 Corinthians, Augsburg Commentary on the New Testament, page 213).

b. Albert Barnes: In regard to this closing verse of the Epistle, we may make the following remarks:
(1) It is a prayer; and if it is a prayer addressed to God, it is no less so to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit. If so, it is right to offer worship to the Lord Jesus and to the Holy Spirit.
(2) there is a distinction in the divine nature; or there is the existence of what is usually termed three persons in the Godhead. If not, why are they mentioned in this manner? If the Lord Jesus is not divine and equal with the Father, why is he mentioned in this connection? How strange it would be for Paul, an inspired man, to pray in the same breath, "the grace of a man or an angel" and "the love of God" be with you! And if the "Holy Spirit" be merely an influence of God or an attribute of God, how strange to pray that the "love of God" and the participation or fellowship of an "influence of God," or an "attribute of God" might be with them!
(3) the Holy Spirit is a person, or has a distinct personality. He is not an attribute of God, nor a mere divine influence. How could prayer be addressed to an attribute, or an influence? But here, nothing can be plainer than that there were favors which the Holy Spirit, as an intelligent and conscious agent, was expected to bestow. And nothing can be plainer than that they were favors in some sense distinct from those which were conferred by the Lord Jesus, and by the Father. Here is a distinction of some kind as real as that between the Lord Jesus and the Father; here are favors expected from him distinct from those conferred by the Father and the Son; and there is, therefore, here all the proof that there can be, that there is in some respects a distinction between the persons here referred to and that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent, conscious agent.
(4) the Lord Jesus is not inferior to the Father, that is, he has an equality with God. If he were not equal, how could he be mentioned, as he here is, as bestowing favors like God, and especially why is he mentioned first? Would Paul, in invoking blessings, mention the name of a mere man or an angel before that of the eternal God?
(5) the passage, therefore, furnishes a proof of the doctrine of the Trinity that has not yet been answered, and, it is believed, cannot be. On the supposition that there are three persons in the adorable Trinity, united in essence and yet distinct in some respects, all is plain and clear. But on the supposition that, the Lord Jesus is a mere man, an angel, or an archangel, and that the Holy Spirit is an attribute, or an influence from God, how unintelligible, confused, strange does all become! That Paul, in the solemn close of the Epistle, should at the same time invoke blessings from a mere creature, and from God, and from an attribute, surpasses belief. But that he should invoke blessings from him who was the equal with the Father, and from the Father himself, and from the Sacred Spirit sustaining the same rank, and in like manner imparting important blessings, is in accordance with all that we should expect, and makes all harmonious and appropriate.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/2-corinthians-13.html#1

 

[ChristB4us]

This has nothing to do with the Spirit nor prayer too the spirit.

It is about both when only Jesus Christ is the Only Mediator at that throne of grace between God and man.

I know you want this to say what you are saying but it simply doesn't. It's addressing the Father and the Son. Not the Spirit.

It is addressing specifically how the father wants to be honored by and that is by only honoring the Son because when we are not honoring the Son, we are not honoring the Father. Period. The latter half od verse 23 testifies against honoring any other than the Son to honor the Father.

This is reading your personal conviction and interpretation into the text. This is known as Eisegesis. Attempting to apply your personal conviction to others is called legalism. Neither is a good thing.

Neither is the devil making Eve doubt what God had said.

Mind you I'm with you on the entire speaking nonsense crowd. The "tongues" spoken of in the Bible were actual languages as proven in Acts.

And yet that apostate tongue was gained by that apostate calling of seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues. This is what happens when focus shifted from the Son in worship to the Holy Spirit and that is why God allowed the strong delusion to occur.

Also with you regarding the blab it and grab it crowd and a host of other weirdness. It shouldn't happen. I'm sure you are familiar with the "Strange Fire" conference? It's nothing new and has been happening since Paul's day. But your personal conviction about praying to the Spirit simply isn't there in my opinion and you haven't supported it through Scripture.

My brother's church Grove City Alliance Church in Grove City PA just had an apostate calling where "healings" were happening in his church that Sunday that he called me up out of the blue that morning to come up there. I got on the tail end of the second morning service when they did the invitation for the healing where they ask people in the congregation to lay hands on those that stood up for healings. The pastor of that church, a mother in law of one of my nephew and a woman singer of the choir came up to me straight away to pray for my healing of my deaf ears and the ringing in my good ear. Nothing happened. I shared with them prior exposure to Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade in how that was an apostasy and touched on my Aunt's church that happened later on in my life that had that holy laughter movement and spoke against the spirit that comes and falls on people, causing them to lose self control and fall.

I stayed for the last morning service at that church and picked up several things that the guest speaker said "Have an encounter with Jesus" and "Experience the tenderness of Jesus". This followed after his sermon on how Jesus came to the Samaritan woman to hype the phenomenon of the Spirit of Christ coming to them without even sinners coming to & believing in Jesus Christ. Then that pastor added to the guest speaker call for getting this healing by saying "Those who have a hunger for more of God.." addressing believers in the congregation, "Let the Spirit fill you."

Try as I might, afterwards, my brother kept telling me that Ephesians 5:18 was about not thinking about the world but focusing on the Spirit for how his pastor applied that to mean, and I kept telling him that is not what he is doing in that church by using that verse in "principle" as he was preaching a phenomenon for those healings to come about. As much as I tried to tell him that Ephesians 5:18 is just about remaining sober rather than a call to seek a filling of the Holy Spirit, and that preacher was in apostasy, he would not hear it being how that pastor married all his children. I do not know if my brother is lying to me on what was happening in that church or he was lying to himself for not wanting to see that phenomenon was not how he claimed the pastor was preaching to him about the application of Ephesians 5:18 being in "principle".

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

I thank the Lord for keeping me from following after that also after having been exposed to Ernest Angeley's Healing Crusade & the Holy laughter movement to not follow after that either.

I tried to speak to the guest speaker and he was angry that I did not see a line, and then I tried to speak to the pastor and he side stepped me on purpose because he knew full well after my testimony about the other two movements of the spirit, that I was going to mention Jesus words about how we would never seek a filling of the Spirit again after salvation due to John 6:35 & Matthew 9:17 for how we are not leaky vessels.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Matthew 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

It seems the Lord led me away from them by letting them go.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Grace and peace to you, brother. Thanks for the chat.

You may be aware of the apostasy but I hope someday the Lord will open your eyes to why He would permit that strong delusion to occur and it is because of a lie that they can receive the holy Spirit by a sign, even after salvation.

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

The danger is that these phenomenon can occur without seeking it and when it happens like when honoring the Holy Spirit in worship or seeking a healing like in my brother's church, and that phenomenon comes, you will not be able to convince them otherwise that was not the Holy Spirit, but the spirit of the antichrist.

That is why I believe Jesus is warning believers in the last days to strive ye to enter through the straight gate in Luke 13:24-30 because many shall seek to enter in but be not able to for being in that iniquity by how they come to God the father in worship; by the broad way of worshipping the Holy Ghost with the Father & the Son Matthew 7:13-14. He is warning believers for a reason. Dare we follow the status quo now?

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Well goodness...just call me a heretic as well as crazy then. Won't be the first time.

@Carbon

Why would I call you a heretic?

Asking believers to prove all things with the help of Jesus Christ by the scripture is what you would want every one else to do when trying to correct them of false teaching, right? So lead by example rather than follow the status quo of responses that "my church can do no wrong".

If every believer did that, the Lord may just lead Catholics & Pentecostals & Charismatics to do the same.

 

[Arial]

Jesus never taught to pray "only" to the Father.

Not only that but the Father is God. God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So when we pray "our Father" we are praying to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We pray to God, acknowledging the distinct work in us of each.

 

[ChristB4us]

It doesn't have to be a command. There just has to be a biblical justification for doing it (Acts 1:24-26; Acts 13:3; 2 Corinthians 3:16; Revelation 1:4-5).

You are inferring as reading your belief into the scripture at the expense of what is plainly written in scripture otherwise.

Those scripture does not say that in the KJV nor the NASB about plainly praying TO the Holy Spirit.

What you are overlooking is how you judge certain movements of the spirit as not of God but overlooking the fact that they were praying TO the Holy Spirit.

So why would God allow the devil to respond when praying to the Holy Spirit?

 

[Eleanor]

You already claimed you were not a Modalist, but now you are teaching it.

Actually, I was using your logic, which necessarily teaches it.

 

[Fred]

You are inferring as reading your belief into the scripture at the expense of what is plainly written in scripture otherwise.

Those scripture does not say that in the KJV nor the NASB about plainly praying TO the Holy Spirit.

Then you need to do a mor of an in depth study the Bible.

 

[ChristB4us]

I'm not reading book length posts that go off into areas unrelated to the subject at hand.

It's just a ruse to avoid the fact that the Holy Spirit is the proper recipient of prayer.

Funny how you go to obscure passages while ignoring what is plainly written in scripture for that practice of yours.

 

[Fred]

Actually, I was using your logic, which necessarily teaches it.

That's interesting (and sad) you are taking the approach by some Unitarians.

 

[ChristB4us]

Jesus isn't the Holy Spirit.
Are you a Modalist?

And yet you seem to think the Holy Spirit is also before that throne of grace to also pray to while denying that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and man.

 

[Fred]

Funny how you go to obscure passages while ignoring what is plainly written in scripture for that practice of yours.

They are only obscure because you keep insisting on what is so-called "plainly" written.

Alot of the Bible does not conform to your ridiculous standard.

 

[Fred]

while denying that Jesus Christ is the only Mediator between God and man.

False accusation. You know, the Bible forbids bearing false witness.