Prove the Practice of Worshipping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son

[ChristB4us]

Only found in trinity translations to mislead by Jesus answering the pharisees honestly, that is all by saying i am before Abraham, saying he lived before Abraham that is all. Its your translations that are filled with misleading errors.

I am pointing out that the so called "correct translation" of your Bible version did not change all the truth that we say is the truth found in the KJV also, as it opposes what your church is teaching as being derived from that changed Bible version.

If you wish to address the errant translation that was supposedly done towards the Trinity doctrine, then consider all that the O.T. & the apostle John has written regarding the requirement for man to establish a testimony and thus a true witness and to judge any one by.

Deuteronomy 17:6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. KJV

Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. KJV

As God commands men to do, will He not do, or is He a hypocrite? So when God said "Let us go down..." to the people at Babylon to confound their language, there had to be at least Two Witnesses to establish the testimony, the Father & the Son, but the Spirit also added as a Third Witness in compliance to the Father & the Son.

Genesis 11:5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8 So the Lord scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the Lord did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the Lord scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

That is how God as the Triune God was able to judge the people at Babylon like Deuteronomy 17:6 says. God cannot do that as a One Person God.

Look again at creation; in how the Triune God establish a word in creation in how the Triune God created man in "their image" and after "their likeness". The request was made to be done in a plural sense and yet as the One God, man was created in His image.

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

So now we go to the apostle John in regards to your assumption that you took at face value that was changed in Bibles to favor the Trinity doctrine.

John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. KJV

John 5th Chapter NWT <---- Still has John 5:31 written as the KJV has it written.

So if Jesus says that about Himself, how can God as the One Person God bears witness of Himself?

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. KJV

John 7th Chapter NWT <---- Still has John 7:18 written as the KJV has it written.

In according to His words above, for God as the One Person God that seeks to testify of Himself in seeking His own glory for Himself, by His own words that He had Jesus to say, unrighteousness is in Him, and so He cannot be a One Person God.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. KJV

John 8th Chapter NWT <----- Still has John 8:17 written as the KJV has it written.

So for God to say anything that can be considered true, He has to have Another Witness with Him to make that testimony true. This happened at Jesus's water baptism when the Father spoke from heaven as the Holy Spirit alighting on the Son added His witness to the Father's word to make the Father's word true.

Matthew 5:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

That was the only way for the Father as the Triune God, made His testimony of the Son as God heard from Heaven to be true by the added Witness of the Holy Ghost. Do note verse 15 as this event fulfilled the prophesy in Isaiah 48:16-17 of the Lord God and His spirit sending God Our Redeemer, Jesus before His incarnation, that is speaking in that reference below thru Isaiah.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

So when you read the changed version in the NWT, ask yourself how God's witness can be greater then men's witness in the earth in verse 9 IF you disregard how it is written in the KJV as some other modern bibles do as well as your Bible version?

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. 9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. KJV

1 John 5th Chapter NWT <----- NWT has changed the message as other modern bibles do but leaves you wondering how God's witness of His Son is greater than the combined witness of men in the earth when they remove that verse as it is in the KJV.

At this site, an author by the name of David W. Daniels had uncovered the truth regarding 1 John 5:7 as it is written in the KJV as he also listed extrabiblical sources that proves that 1 John 5:7 as it is in the KJV was originally scripture as far back as 200 A.D.

IS 1 JOHN 5:7 NOT IN ANY GREEK MANUSCRIPT BEFORE THE 1600S? IF IT IS TRUE, WHY IS IT IN THE KJV?

If you scroll down that web page, you will see that list of extrabiblical sources that cited 1 John 5:7 as it was originally scripture as it is in the KJV.

May God bless you in discerning the truth in His words.

 

[ChristB4us]

You believe the pharisees who were apostocised, hearts filled with hatred for Jesus, do you as well believe them when they said Jesus got his power from demons? Not in a single instance did they say a truth about Jesus. They twisted everything they could out of hate filled hearts. Jesus even told them their father was the devil. So when they said Jesus blasphemed-they lied.

What did the apostle Paul warned believers about?

Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. KJV
Galatians 1st Chapter NWT <---- NWT changed gospel with good news but you ought to see the same warning from Paul.

Would not Paul warn differently as led by the Holy Spirit if God foreknew there would be a necessity to raise a prophet like Joseph Smith?

And yet....you would heed the words of Joseph Smith's?

Biography of Joseph Smith <--- quote below from the link

"According to Smith's later accounts, while praying one night in 1823, he was visited by an angel named Moroni. Smith claimed this angel revealed the location of a buried book made of golden plates, as well as other artifacts including a breastplate and a set of interpreters composed of two seer stones set in a frame, which had been hidden in a hill near his home.[25] Smith said he attempted to remove the plates the next morning, but was unsuccessful because Moroni returned and prevented him.[26] He reported that during the next four years he made annual visits to the hill, but, until the fourth and final visit, each time he returned without the plates.[27] " end of quote from link.

I had been led astray by my Covenant United Presbyterian Church in making a commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life and kept failing it ever since because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak and so finally the Lord got through to me to rest in His New Covenant to me that He will do that good work in me and through me and all He had asked from me is to believe Him that He will help me to follow Him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6th Chapter NWT , ------ NWT managed to say the same thing. That means all the works of Mormonism is false when it is on you to do it.

Christ has set me free from that commitment to make Jesus Lord of my life in looking to myself to do the best I can in keeping that commitment to instead, rest in Him that I am saved simply by believing in Him and that He will help me to run that race by faith in Him to help me lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son. That is His job as my Good Shepherd & why He is my Friend. He can be too for you when you trust Jesus Christ to be your Good Shepherd & not your JW church to do that for you.

 

[ChristB4us]

1John 4:12-- John 1:18--proves its you twisting the words about Abraham, Abraham was a Man, he never saw God.

Abraham never saw God the Father but Abraham did see the Son as God before His incarnation and Jesus said so for why He was almost stoned but got away.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 8th Chapter NWT <---- Has the same message somewhat but having Jesus said "I have been" but the KJV's "I AM" is more testifying to His deity and therefore offensive for why they tried to stone Him. So the truth is kept in the KJV while the NWT translator changed it to meet his view.

That is why Jesus said scriptures testify of Him.

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. 40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life......

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 5th Chapter NWT <---- The NWT says the same thing for why you should doubt the one that redid the translation for the NWT.

 

[ChristB4us]

The logos in Jn 1:1 does not mean utterance, it was the Greek word for God of the universe.
John is proclaiming that the carpenter from Nazareth is that God of the universe.
Jesus never referred to himself as the Word of God, nor is he ever called the Word of God in the NT.
Jesus is the Word who is God.

Jesus as well as Paul as led by the Holy Spirit aka the Spirit of Christ referred to Jesus as the Word of God?

Luke 8:11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. <---- Jesus said that. You take it to mean utterance but Paul says otherwise.

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Jesus not being the word of God anywhere in the NT, but rather the word who is God, the seed here is the gospel, not Jesus Christ.

I understand how you are applying that to mean but Son of God and Word of God can mean the same thing too.

Moot point, he doesn't need any words, he is the Father's own Spirit, and the Father knows his mind, just as Jesus does also, because he is also Jesus' own Spirit.
Jesus' knowing the Spirit's mind does not demonstrate that Jesus is the first "he" in Ro 8:27, since the Father does also.
And the second "he" is stated to be the Holy Spirit who intercedes for the saints.

You had earlier correctly identified that "he" as Jesus searching our hearts and now somehow in the middle of that verse 27, that "he" switched to the Spirit?

The point of Mediator is to act as a go between us and the Father and so if the Father can search the hearts also, then what is the Son doing it for?

That should be Jn 13:16, which refers to the Spirit's revelatory ministry, where he speaks only what he is told to speak, it does not refer to his intercessory ministry.
The Holy Spirit does speak, he is not mute.

The Holy Spirit does speak but not His own words as He speaks only what He hears. He cannot even utter groanings from Himself when making intercessions for us which is why Jesus has to know the mind of the Spirit and as that only Mediator in according to the will of God, to give the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father so that if the Father says yes to any of the Spirit's silent intercessions, the Son answers the prayers so the Father will be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers and be given thanks in Jesus's name.

And as the only go between us and the father is why all invitations for eternal life points to the Son as well as all invitations points to coming to God the Father is by the only way of the Son and that includes worship and not just prayer.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....

13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Thank you for sharing. May God cause the increase in His iron sharpen iron ministry of His through the truth in His words.

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus as well as Paul as led by the Holy Spirit aka the Spirit of Christ referred to Jesus as the Word of God?

Luke 8:11Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. <---- Jesus said that. You take it to mean utterance but Paul says otherwise.

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Nope. . .in both cases word of God is Scripture.
Jesus is not the "it" of Heb 4:12, and you don't plant Jesus in soil to yield fruit a hundredfold.

I understand how you are applying that to mean but Son of God and Word of God can mean the same thing too.

Nope, not in the NT.

The point of Mediator is to act as a go between us and the Father and so if the Father can search the hearts also, then what is the Son doing it for?

The Father can be searching for righteousness, the Son can be searching for faith or the Holy Spirit, depending on their purposes.

The Holy Spirit does speak but not His own words as He speaks only what He hears. He cannot even utter groanings from Himself when making intercessions for us which is why Jesus has to know the mind of the Spirit and as that only Mediator in according to the will of God, to give the Spirit's silent intercessions to the Father so that if the Father says yes to any of the Spirit's silent intercessions, the Son answers the prayers so the Father will be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers and be given thanks in Jesus's name.

Previously addressed.

And as the only go between us and the father is why all invitations for eternal life points to the Son as well as all invitations points to coming to God the Father is by the only way of the Son and that includes worship and not just prayer.

Relevance to the point?

 

[ChristB4us]

Nope. . .in both cases word of God is Scripture.
Jesus is not the "it" of Heb 4:12, and you don't plant Jesus in soil to yield fruit a hundredfold.

Nope, not in the NT.

The Father can be searching for righteousness, the Son can be searching for faith or the Holy Spirit, depending on their purposes.

Previously addressed.

Relevance to the point?

Then we agree to disagree and let us hope in the Lord that He will minister since we are trusting Him to perfect that which concerns each of us.

 

[Eleanor]

Then we agree to disagree and let us hope in the Lord that He will minister since we are trusting Him to perfect that which concerns each of us.

Having Biblically demonstrated the incorrect understanding of the following Scriptures presented by you, I would be interested in knowing why you choose either to not accept the Biblical demonstrations of error, or to remain with your Biblical misunderstanding of them, when you have shown no Biblical demonstration of any error in the following presentations.

Heb 4:12-16 - Jesus is not the "it" which is the word of God.

Ro 8:26-27 - do not present the Holy Spirit hearing prayer, but making prayer.

Heb 7:25 - Jesus also makes intercession for us, as our great High Priest.

Jn 16:33 - refers to the Holy Spirit's revelatory ministry of speaking only what he is told, not to his intercessory ministry of praying within us.

Jn 1:1 - logos does not mean utterance, it means the God of the universe.

Word of God - Jesus did not refer to himself as the Word of God, nor is he ever called the Word of God in the NT. including in Heb 4:12.
Jesus is the Word who is God, not the Word of God.

 

[Fred]

Jesus did not refer to himself as the Word of God, nor is he ever called the Word of God in the NT.

He is in Revelation 19:13.

 

[ReverendRV]

Then we agree to disagree and let us hope in the Lord that He will minister since we are trusting Him to perfect that which concerns each of us.

You made Mr Spock raise his eyebrow...

After watching this, I try to never say Let's agree to disagree Right @Fred ?

 

[Eleanor]

He is in Revelation 19:13.

Very good.

Prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) are not my source of doctrine
Authoritative NT apostolic teaching is the source of doctrine.

That being said, I note that none fully knows the name but himself.
We only know from NT apostolic teaching that this Word is God, manifest in the flesh.

 

[Fred]

Very good.

Prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8) are not my source of doctrine

Does that mean you reject it?
What about the rest of the Book of Revelation?

Authoritative NT apostolic teaching is the source of doctrine.

Isn't God teaching the believer in Revelation 19:13?

 

[Eleanor]

Does that mean you reject it?

No, that means being subject to more than one interpretation prevents it from being used as doctrine.

What about the rest of the Book of Revelation?

It is prophetic riddle.

Isn't God teaching the believer in Revelation 19:13?

He is teaching the believer in the literal parts, and there are fundamental truths to be seen regarding the showdown between God and Satan in
the apocalyptic and highly symbolic parts; i.e., of Satan's persecution throughout the church age, and of the ultimate outcome of the church and her enemies.

 

[Fred]

No, that means being subject to more than one interpretation prevents it from being used as doctrine.

Does this prevent the Christian from using the rest of this book for a basis for doctrine?

 

[Eleanor]

Does this prevent the Christian from using the rest of this book for a basis for doctrine?

Two points here:

1) all interpretation of prophetic riddles in Rev must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, if Scripture is not to contradict itself,

2) all doctrine must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, or it is heresy.

 

[Fred]

Two points here:

1) all interpretation of prophetic riddles in Rev must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, if Scripture is not to contradict itself,

2) all doctrine must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, or it is heresy.

Isn't that true of any NT book?
Plenty of prophesy (riddles) throughout.

 

[Eleanor]

Isn't that true of any NT book?
Plenty of prophesy (riddles) throughout.

No, the NT letters are not prophetic riddles, they are instruction.
The Gospels are instruction, with a very small amount of prophetic riddle.

 

[Fred]

No, the NT letters are not prophetic riddles, they are instruction.

Why couldn't the Book of Revelation be both?

I don't see anywhere else in the New Testament where the Greek word latreuō is rendered unto the Lord Jesus (Revelation 22:3).

 

[ChristB4us]

You made Mr Spock raise his eyebrow...

After watching this, I try to never say Let's agree to disagree Right @Fred ?

When a discussion becomes an impasse where the other does not see the truth, there really is no point in continuing, less it becomes an argument or a debate and eventually heated exchanges are being done because the other does not see the truth.

If they do not hear His words at this time, then they will not hear my words at this time and vise versa.

That is why it is on God to cause the increase because mayhap down the road, whatever seed or water one or the other side has done by His grace & by His help, God may cause the increase later on down the road.

Like in preaching the gospel; they may not believe at that time, but the seed is planted that later on God the Father will remind them and they believe & be saved.

Same with any edification in keeping the faith which is the good fight as well as applying His words rightly in truth for abiding in Him.

 

[ReverendRV]

When a discussion becomes an impasse where the other does not see the truth, there really is no point in continuing, less it becomes an argument or a debate and eventually heated exchanges are being done because the other does not see the truth.

If they do not hear His words at this time, then they will not hear my words at this time and vise versa.

That is why it is on God to cause the increase because mayhap down the road, whatever seed or water one or the other side has done by His grace & by His help, God may cause the increase later on down the road.

Like in preaching the gospel; they may not believe at that time, but the seed is planted tat later on God the Father will remind them and they believe & be saved.

Same with any edification in keeping the faith which is the good fight as well as applying His words rightly in truth for abiding in Him.

I get it...

But you were the One who suggested the Logical Fallacy to agree to disagree...

 

[ChristB4us]

I get it...

But you were the One who suggested the Logical Fallacy to agree to disagree...

So is that wrong for me to do? I did pick it up from other posters in other forums so as to avoid an argument. It seems like the best way to end it. Should I say something else?

Godly sorrow brings about repentance.

Seems like it. Just another example for why we should prove all things, even by how I had responded. Is it biblical for me to say that? Probably not.

Matthew 10:13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you. 14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. 15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Thank you for that. I reckon I have to discern how God would have me end a discussion or if at all to avoid biting and devouring one another as some tend to do in going from a discussion to an argument, and just walk away.

I shall ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive me and help me from posting that again, especially when it is a matter of abiding in Him & His words.