Prevenient grace?

[Bob Carabbio]

My question is...how do you hear his voice and reject it?

In MY CASE, because of my familiarity with the Bible (Thanks to Mom), I KNEW that I was a SINNER, and that I NEEDED TO RESPOND to His call, but I had "better things to do", wasn't sure how to react, Ignored the call, and after while it went away, and things got "normal" again.

When I was 20, though, I was Suicidal, Hopeless, depressed, and FAR from home. There was a certain "finality" to His Conviction. I wasn't sure He'd come again before I died, and I didn't want to wind up in HELL - so I surrendered, repented, and cried out in FAITH to Him.

...how do you know it was God’s voice..if you weren’t already Born Again?

When God breaks into your "reality", YOU KNOW WHO HE IS. Like Abraham. He was never "Born Again" (in the new Testament sense - indwelled by the Holy Spirit - nobody was), but HE KNEW that it was God rattling his cage, and he obeyed (partially).

For myself, not only did I hear his word, I received his word straight into my heart!...therefore he birthed me in the Spirit, which is a supernatural act that only God can do,imo/ belief.

Agree completely. Different people have different experiences. I recall a Roman Catholic man at a Full Gospel Business Men's meeting that said: "The Baptism in the Holy Spirit MADE REAL TO ME what was begun in my Baptism, and my Confirmation". In "Baptist speak": "he got saved".

 

[makesends]

For the same reason that YOU have "personal baggage"

So you've answered your own question above.

Because we're all individuals. When we Adopted, I recall being told that "a newborn baby is a blank slate". We actually believed that LIE, until we found out the truth later.

SInce NOBODY has any chance at all to "Repent" UNLESS they're "Drawn by God", your question really is: Who does God draw???
PERSONALLY, I don't know. He "DREW" me. DId he "Draw" you??

Why wouldn't I SEE that??? Rom 9 spells out in detail????

Yet, you deny God's complete sovereignty over all fact, to include his having caused = is controlling ALL things whatsoever comes to pass. You take it only so far, then leave the tracks.

You ask, "Why did YOU come into Life (If you did)???" after describing your 'free will' choice to accept what drew you. I did not "come into" Life. Life came into me." My regeneration was not a result of my choice, but of God's choice alone.

 

[Ritajanice]

In MY CASE, because of my familiarity with the Bible (Thanks to Mom), I KNEW that I was a SINNER, and that I NEEDED TO RESPOND to His call, but I had "better things to do", wasn't sure how to react, Ignored the call, and after while it went away, and things got "normal" again.

When I was 20, though, I was Suicidal, Hopeless, depressed, and FAR from home. There was a certain "finality" to His Conviction. I wasn't sure He'd come again before I died, and I didn't want to wind up in HELL - so I surrendered, repented, and cried out in FAITH to Him.

When God breaks into your "reality", YOU KNOW WHO HE IS. Like Abraham. He was never "Born Again" (in the new Testament sense - indwelled by the Holy Spirit - nobody was), but HE KNEW that it was God rattling his cage, and he obeyed (partially).

Agree completely. Different people have different experiences. I recall a Roman Catholic man at a Full Gospel Business Men's meeting that said: "The Baptism in the Holy Spirit MADE REAL TO ME what was begun in my Baptism, and my Confirmation". In "Baptist speak": "he got saved".

Thanks very much for explaining Bob.....

 

[Ritajanice]

Yet, you deny God's complete sovereignty over all fact, to include his having caused = is controlling ALL things whatsoever comes to pass. You take it only so far, then leave the tracks.

You ask, "Why did YOU come into Life (If you did)???" after describing your 'free will' choice to accept what drew you. I did not "come into" Life. Life came into me." My regeneration was not a result of my choice, but of God's choice alone.

I think Bob experienced his birth, much differently to ours Brother...

God got him in the end!..

 

[makesends]

I think Bob experienced his birth, much differently to ours Brother...

God got him in the end!..

I believe so. But when, in the end, he attributes his salvation to whether or not HE ( @Bob Carabbio ) surrendered (or whatever other term he may substitute) he is, as Paul puts it, "boasting". It is a claim that his salvation is not entirely of Grace.

 

[Ritajanice]

I can relate to what Bob is saying...I tell you for why....after I became Born Again..God spoke to my heart and as Bob says, you know when God speaks to your heart.

Anyway to cut a long story short...I said NO to God..A. Because it looked the opposite of what he spoke.

B....it scared me...this went on for 3 years...then for the last 25 yrs it went quiet....well...3 and a half years ago, he brought me back to it....I fully understood it by that time....and now my answer is YES.....I can’t share at the moment, one day I hope to....as it will truly Glorify the power of God’s will..nothing can thwart his will.

So yes I understand Bobs testimony and I’ve just shared mine.

 

[Ritajanice]

I believe so. But when, in the end, he attributes his salvation to whether or not HE ( @Bob Carabbio ) surrendered (or whatever other term he may substitute) he is, as Paul puts it, "boasting". It is a claim that his salvation is not entirely of Grace.

Ok Brother. I understand what you are saying here.

 

[makesends]

I can relate to what Bob is saying...I tell you for why....after I became Born Again..God spoke to my heart and as Bob says, you know when God speaks to your heart.

Anyway to cut a long story short...I said NO to God..A. Because it looked the opposite of what he spoke.

B....it scared me...this went on for 3 years...then for the last 25 yrs it went quiet....well...3 and a half years ago, he brought me back to it....I fully understood it by that time....and now my answer is YES.....I can’t share at the moment, one day I hope to....as it will truly Glorify the power of God’s will..nothing can thwart his will.

So yes I understand Bobs testimony and I’ve just shared mine.

Truth is, I think, we all have such testimonies. Some not so overwhelming, perhaps, but of the same nature. We cannot necessarily put a finger on just when God regenerated us, but our experience of its effects (results) is easier to pinpoint.

Even the ongoing subsequent "sanctification", as most doctrinal positions call it, still has continuing moments of repentance and submission. Some make the mistake of thinking this is actual loss of salvation and regaining of it, but regardless, if God has regenerated the person, he is one of the Elect, and God WILL bring to completion what he has begun in them, empirical 'experience' notwithstanding.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yet, you deny God's complete sovereignty over all fact, to include his having caused = is controlling ALL things whatsoever comes to pass. You take it only so far, then leave the tracks.

You ask, "Why did YOU come into Life (If you did)???" after describing your 'free will' choice to accept what drew you. I did not "come into" Life. Life came into me." My regeneration was not a result of my choice, but of God's choice alone.

"Regeneration" is a meaningless religious term, which in Calvinism, DOES NOT equate with "Being Saved". But in any case, being "Born again of the Holy SPirit" is something that relies on God to execute, since humans are totally incapable of bringing themselves to salvation. So God's "Sovereignty" prevails within the fences that God has stated Biblically.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I believe so. But when, in the end, he attributes his salvation to whether or not HE ( @Bob Carabbio ) surrendered (or whatever other term he may substitute) he is, as Paul puts it, "boasting". It is a claim that his salvation is not entirely of Grace.

Disingenuous. humans are not "Robots", and in the final analysis, GOd's WORD must be mixed with FAITH, andin FAITH, we must call upon God for the spiritual transaction to occur. He Doesn't FORCE US to become Christians.

That's not "Boasting" God had to knock Paul off his horse to "Reach" him, even though Paul had been conscious of the "Pricks" sent by God, even while he persecuted Christians.

 

[brightfame52]

Disingenuous. humans are not "Robots", and in the final analysis, GOd's WORD must be mixed with FAITH, andin FAITH, we must call upon God for the spiritual transaction to occur. He Doesn't FORCE US to become Christians.

That's not "Boasting" God had to knock Paul off his horse to "Reach" him, even though Paul had been conscious of the "Pricks" sent by God, even while he persecuted Christians.

But Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. How can one have the fruit of the Spirit and not be born of the Spirit ?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

But Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22. How can one have the fruit of the Spirit and not be born of the Spirit ?

"FAITH" is defined as having TWO INTRINSIC ATTRIBUTES. One is "SUBSTANCE", and the other is "EVIDENCE".

God's WORD TO YOU has both attributes. Abraham, was spoken to directly by God, had absolute TRUST in God's Word TO HIM, as evidenced by his subsequent actions. God told him to LEAVE, and he did, placing his weight on the substance of God's word, and being held by it, and God's WORD (that he would be a "great nation" was his evidence that even though he didn't personally SEE (for quite a while) what God was preparing to do, it was really there regardless.

In short, Abraham took God's W)ORD TO HIM SERIOUSLY, and even though he wasn't "Born of the SPirit" in the "New Testament sence", he trusted God anyway. Gal 5:22 is ONE aspect of "FAITH", but not the ONLY aspect.

 

[brightfame52]

"FAITH" is defined as having TWO INTRINSIC ATTRIBUTES. One is "SUBSTANCE", and the other is "EVIDENCE".

God's WORD TO YOU has both attributes. Abraham, was spoken to directly by God, had absolute TRUST in God's Word TO HIM, as evidenced by his subsequent actions. God told him to LEAVE, and he did, placing his weight on the substance of God's word, and being held by it, and God's WORD (that he would be a "great nation" was his evidence that even though he didn't personally SEE (for quite a while) what God was preparing to do, it was really there regardless.

In short, Abraham took God's W)ORD TO HIM SERIOUSLY, and even though he wasn't "Born of the SPirit" in the "New Testament sence", he trusted God anyway. Gal 5:22 is ONE aspect of "FAITH", but not the ONLY aspect.

Faith is the fruit of the Spirit friend, the unregenerate dont have it and cant pllease God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[makesends]

"Regeneration" is a meaningless religious term, which in Calvinism, DOES NOT equate with "Being Saved". But in any case, being "Born again of the Holy SPirit" is something that relies on God to execute, since humans are totally incapable of bringing themselves to salvation. So God's "Sovereignty" prevails within the fences that God has stated Biblically.

I didn't say it equates with "Being Saved". Er wait, let me check —I am getting old! ....nope, I can't find anywhere I said that. What I said was that Regeneration = being Born Again.

Of course it depends on God to execute, since humans are totally incapable of bringing themselves to salvation, nor do they want to.

Strange how you keep positing Calvinist doctrine, but do your best to run it over.

 

[Manfred]

So, prevenient grace is, everyone is given enough grace (externally) to make it possible to respond to Christ by our own free will. Then, those who respond, are the elect.

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Jesus states that there are (some not all) people (future) allocated by the Father to come to Him, and that ALL those whom the Father allocates WILL come, and never be cast out.

I remember as a tike of around 7 years old at Christmas time, praying to the Lord and experiencing a miracle in my small mind in answer to my prayer. God was drawing me to Him from an early age and I experienced this drawing on many other occasions through my teenage life. It was only at the age of 22 that God opened my heart and mind to understanding the gospel message though I had heard it many times before, and I became born again. Not because I was actively searching for God at that time, in fact I was quite content in my sin then. (Not proud to say that, but it's true)

At the same time one of my childhood friends who according to his own testimony when I was speaking with him not to long ago, said that he never experienced this drawing and he was uninterested in my testimony. He was a really kind, tolerant and generous person. He died a while back unconverted as far as I know.

If anyone has their heart and mind opened and receives full revelation of whom Jesus Christ is and consequently comes face to face with ones guilt, and the realization of your absolute need for forgiveness, then it would be impossible to reject Christ.
You cannot understand and believe something with absolute conviction, and then decide/choose not to believe what you understand and believe and have a conviction of. That is oxymoronic.

That is why posters like Flom on the other site struggle so with the parable of the Sower and understanding Pricilla, Cornelius etc.
In Jesus' laying out the meaning of the parable, He relates that there is only one group who understands and believes, and they produce fruit to varying degrees. The others believe without understanding and experience a temporal joy that is choked.

 

[brightfame52]

makesends

I didn't say it equates with "Being Saved". Er wait, let me check —I am getting old! ....nope, I can't find anywhere I said that. What I said was that Regeneration = being Born Again.

But it does. There is a Spiritual aspect of Salvation, and that aspect is regeneration, so yes being saved [spiritually] is regeneration or New Birth Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

According to Vs 5 how were they saved ?

 

[makesends]

makesends



But it does. There is a Spiritual aspect of Salvation, and that aspect is regeneration, so yes being saved [spiritually] is regeneration or New Birth Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

According to Vs 5 how were they saved ?

Let me put this another way. Regeneration is by the Spirit of God "taking up residence within' —this is the CAUSE of salvific faith. Salvific faith is generated by the same Spirit of God that regenerates the redeemed believer, and belief is by this faith. So whether you say that salvation IS regeneration, or you say that regeneration logically precedes —i.e CAUSES, or 'results in'— the Salvation, to me is academic as far as effect. You won't have one without the other. But we do know this much: That one cannot have salvific faith, apart from regeneration.

The reason it is important that one understand the logical progression that regeneration comes first, is because they must understand what By Grace means. This is a work entirely of God's decision, and not of man's. Man does decide, no doubt, but his decision is not causal as to his Salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

Let me put this another way. Regeneration is by the Spirit of God "taking up residence within' —this is the CAUSE of salvific faith. Salvific faith is generated by the same Spirit of God that regenerates the redeemed believer, and belief is by this faith. So whether you say that salvation IS regeneration, or you say that regeneration logically precedes —i.e CAUSES, or 'results in'— the Salvation, to me is academic as far as effect. You won't have one without the other. But we do know this much: That one cannot have salvific faith, apart from regeneration.

The reason it is important that one understand the logical progression that regeneration comes first, is because they must understand what By Grace means. This is a work entirely of God's decision, and not of man's. Man does decide, no doubt, but his decision is not causal as to his Salvation.

I dont think its appropriate to say man decides, he decides nothing, now he believes, and God decided that. The word decide means:

1. to solve or conclude (a question, controversy, or struggle) by giving victory to one side:The judge decided the case in favor of the plaintiff.
2. 
   
3. to determine or settle (something in dispute or doubt)
   
   And on top of that, its the new man that believes, and that by Grace.
   Other than that, I think we see it the same.
   
   One other thing, I believe a person can be regenerated prior to hearing and believing the Gospel, say like Cornelius was.
   
   
   
   
   

 

[ReverendRV]

《snip》Already there is an issue here. If prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails! I mean what good is it after all, if it's offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?
And if you say it's something God does in man's heart, then I have to ask, why then is it not always effective?
Which begs the question, why do some choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose to not cooperate?

Doesn't everyone get the same amount of prevenient grace? So, why does one person say yes and another says no?

Besides the doctrine of prevenient grace not being in scripture, this is another big issue.

Arminian Prevenient Grace isn't Transcendent, but actually encroaches upon everyone by trespassing against their Enmity toward God; and effectually thwarting their Total Depravity to a point of neutrality instead of Enmity...

 

[ReverendRV]

An old Poster elsewhere used to say that Arminian Prevenient Grace, changed people from a position of Enmity to that of Neutrality; from a state of Total Depravity to a state of Nominal Depravity. This Act of Arminian Prevenient Grace, changed people into Pelagians; those who can of themselves freely choose or deny Christ. That Poster's point was that Arminianism is truly Pelagianism with an Asterisk; Pelagianism in Arminian clothing. He said that Prevenient Grace goes to everyone, and thwarts the power of Total Depravity in All Human Beings. Because this happens, people are only Totally Depraved for a moment in their lives; and probably are Naturally in the condition of being Pelagian for the better part of their lives...

I will never forget the Poster's Argument. By Grace, Arminians evolve into Pelagians...

On a different note, I also realize the things Arminian Prevenient Grace and Calvinism's Irresistible Grace have in common; they both are Prevenient, and both are Irresistible. Both are Prevenient because both Graces are the first factors of Salvation; going before any other required aspect of Salvation, such as Faith, Repentance, Confession, etc. Both are Irresistible because both thwart Total Depravity against the Will of those who are at Enmity with God; Grace Efficaciously Trespasses the Front Lines of our Forces....

The main difference between Arminian Prevenient Grace and Calvinism's Irresistible Grace, is the condition they leave us in after they encroach; one leaves us Neutral Pelagians, the other leaves us Spiritually Alive people who choose Jesus Christ due to now being Alive...

Bump