Prevenient grace?

[Eleanor]

That's an assumption not supported by the cite.

Ro 4:1-8, 18-25, belief in the promise is counted for righteousness (rebirth).

 

[brightfame52]

"Unregenerates" can "hear God" just fine, that's how we all got saved, after all. We "Heard God" in "Conviction of SIN and of judgement". (John 16:8)

The claim that we "Can't hear GOD without regeneration" is just the Calvinist "Work around" for their inaccurate "Total depravity theology".

Are we BLIND to the reality of the "Kingdom of God" as unregenerates?? Absolutely!!! Jesus said so in John 3:3. But that "Unregenerates cant hear GOD at all" is just theological foolishness.

Unregenerate cant hear God Spiritually Jesus said that Jn 8:43,47


43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

The unregenerate is not of God friend.

 

[brightfame52]

Impossible. Jesus had not been Sacrificed yet, and "Being Born Again", or being indwelled by the Holy Spirit, was FAR in the future. Abraham, however, DID HAVE FAITH in God's WORD to him, as demonstrated by his subsequent actions.

People were born again before Christ died, His disciples that believed on Him during His earthly Ministry were born of God Jn 1:12-13

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Anybody who had Faith was born of God, Abel, Noah, Enoch, Sarah, Abraham, Jacob and on and on

See Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Tell it to God.

He ALready told US in the WORD. That's what JESUS and HIS SIN OFFERING was all about - so that we could be born again.

Abraham believed in the promise, which was Jesus Christ.

And God's word to him was a promise of Christ, in which promise Abraham believed.

i.e. the very DEFINITION of FAITH.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Ro 4:1-8, 18-25, belief in the promise is counted for righteousness (rebirth).

Belife(Faith) in god's word was counted for righteousness, however Abraham's SIN REMAINED, like everybody else's. That's what Jesus' SIN OFFERING was all about. "Rebirth" was only possible AFTER Calvary. Sin could be FORGIVEN, but not cleansed. The temple sacrifice didn't CLEANSE anybody's sin - only temporarily "covered" it. The Book of Hebrews covers all that.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

People were born again before Christ died,

The Jesus DIED FOR NOTHING.

 

[Ritajanice]

"Unregenerates" can "hear God" just fine, that's how we all got saved, after all. We "Heard God" in "Conviction of SIN and of judgement". (John 16:8)

The claim that we "Can't hear GOD without regeneration" is just the Calvinist "Work around" for their inaccurate "Total depravity theology".

Are we BLIND to the reality of the "Kingdom of God" as unregenerates?? Absolutely!!! Jesus said so in John 3:3. But that "Unregenerates cant hear GOD at all" is just theological foolishness.

God’s Living word disagrees with you.

God is the one who opens the heart to regenerate, brings our spirit Alive..that’s how we know we have been birthed..only he can do that.

1 Corinthians 2:14​

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New King James Version​

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14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14 Context​

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

He ALready told US in the WORD. That's what JESUS and HIS SIN OFFERING was all about - so that we could be born again.

i.e. the very DEFINITION of FAITH.

Even though Jesus had not yet been sacrificed.

 

[Eleanor]

Belife(Faith) in god's word was counted for righteousness,

And God's word was the promise of Christ, which Abraham believed in.

however Abraham's SIN REMAINED, like everybody else's. That's what Jesus' SIN OFFERING was all about.

The sins of the OT saints were not punished until the cross, but they were still cancelled prior to the cross, when they were then punished (Ro 3:25)

"Rebirth" was only possible AFTER Calvary.

Not according to Ro 3:25.

Sin could be FORGIVEN, but not cleansed.

To forgive is go cancel the debt, which debt was cancelled by faith in the promise of Christ.

The temple sacrifice didn't CLEANSE anybody's sin - only temporarily "covered" it. The Book of Hebrews covers all that.

"Covering" it removed it from God's "sight," and made them acceptable to God.
There sin was set aside by God in anticipation of the cross (Ro 3:25).

 

[Eleanor]

The Jesus DIED FOR NOTHING.

Not according to Ro 3:25.

 

[brightfame52]

The Jesus DIED FOR NOTHING.

Sounds like a foolish unlearned statement.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God’s Living word disagrees with you.

Correction: Your personal / Denominational theological INTERPRETATION of God's Living Word disagrees with me.

I don't mind that at all.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Even though Jesus had not yet been sacrificed.

Old Testament folks ALSO "Died in FAITH" that God would provide a solution for their SIN - because they trusted God's WORD.

 

[fastfredy0]

Prevenient grace is the grace of God given to individuals that releases them from their bondage to sin and enables them to come to Christ in faith. Gotquestion.org

Premise 1: Prevenient grace is true
Premise 2: The number of those saved is 2 - 10% of the population (Narrow is the gate and few that ...
Conclusion 1: God did not give man enough Prevenient Grace to give man a even shot at salvation; rather, God chose the proportion to be saved and not the individual

 

[fastfredy0]

Premise 1: Prevenient grace is true

@Eleanor .... my clarification ... I don't believe in Prevenient Grace ... but if it were true then I wondered why God would not at least give people a 50/50 shot at salvation .... gee, if God wanted to save everyone to be saved He'd give everyone sufficient Prevenient Grace to do the job.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Sounds like a foolish unlearned statement.

Not as "Unlearned" as: "People were born again before Christ died,"!!

Since NOBODY WAS CLEANSED OF THEIR SIN, or indwelled by the Holy Spirit until after Calvary, how, then could they have been "Born again".

 

[Ladodgers6]

Prevenient grace (or enabling grace).

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

So, prevenient grace is, everyone is given enough grace (externally) to make it possible to respond to Christ by our own free will. Then, those who respond, are the elect.

Already there is an issue here. If prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails! I mean what good is it after all, if it's offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?
And if you say it's something God does in man's heart, then I have to ask, why then is it not always effective?
Which begs the question, why do some choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose to not cooperate?

Doesn't everyone get the same amount of prevenient grace? So, why does one person say yes and another says no?

Besides the doctrine of prevenient grace not being in scripture, this is another big issue.

Precisely and spot on! These were the questions as a former Arminian that I struggled with. I searched day and night to see if i could find the answer in Scripture. To be clear Classical Calvinism also holds to Prevenient Grace not in the sense in the Arminian position holds that it can be resisted and that it is not effectual in saving anyone. Calvinism follows scripture in that Grace precedes anything we can do. It is also effectual in its cause to regenerated and save those whom God has chosen.

But this doesn't sit well with folks. They complain this is a foul and unfair. So they conjure up a man-made teaching that God provides the same equal amount of sufficient Grace to save everyone, if they only accept it or reject it. But when digging into more closely, this Arminian PG in fact doesn't save anyone. It's not effectual in its application.

This is where I got stuck as a former Arminian. I asked myself if this PG is not effectual then what is its purpose? They will say, to bring knowledge of God and salvation. I would ask, how so? They wouldn't know how define it for me. For example, if PG partially regenerates the person to the knowledge of God; I say partially because it's not full regeneration of the sinner by the Holy Spirit in all his faculties and powers to come forth in hearing the internal call of God's word to believe and repent and persevere in Christ through Faith Alone! With the Arminian position they say the sinner is renewed in his/hers intellect, will & affection to understand their plight before God and can at this moment decide to accept or reject God that will determine the outcome of going to heaven or hell. But this answer is very ambiguous and convoluted. Here's why, if nobody can choose God apart from PG that the Arminians claim, but this PG is not salvific in saving anyone, what is the cause of our salvation? To suggest that it is our decision still is in adequate because something must move or be effectual in our hearts and minds as to the truth in God and his word! In other words, before PG, the sinner is dead in sin and trespasses, following the prince of the air and fulfilling the passions of the flesh and mind. Basically the sinner is already in a state of condemnation and is rebellious and resistance to God. For we are enemies of God and hostile toward God. But how does a sinner overcome this sinful disposition is the core question!

Only by the Grace of God in a Divine Act of Mercy is this dead sinner resurrected by the full Regeneration of the Holy Spirit bringing us alive in Christ and saved. Through the proclamation of the Gospel through Faith Alone, which is also a FREE GIFT of God can we see and hear God through his word as the Holy Spirit bears witness to our hearts and mind of it, that we can see and hear Christ and follow him. The Gospel is the internal call for God's people to come forth out of the darkness into the marvelous light. Only God can calls us out of bondage as like Egypt. And he Promises that we will be his people and he will our God!

But the case with Arminianism when pull comes to shove that rely on their one work of Faith as the cause of their salvation outside of Grace that is not effectual and the only thing that is effectual is their activity; this one little work, faith. But where does this faith come from? If PG is not effectual, then how does Faith come about? And without PG, the sinner is incapable of anything. The irony though is that Arminians accuse Calvinists of double talk.

So now they have turned the Gospel Promise into a work; Gospel into Law, which is no gospel at all. But they will deny this, though the writing is on the wall. If PG according to them is not effectual but resistible. What is the cause of their Salvation? It is something they do, and this becomes the ground upon they stand and think they can find favor with God.

Trying to climb to the top of Everest without rope, gear, clothes and oxygen is impossible. PG as the Arminians claims must come before anything we do. But why if it ineffective? They say PG will illuminate the faculties of fallen men/women to understand the things of God that pertain to Redemption. So how is this not full regeneration? Makes no sense to me. But here's the kicker for me, so one is partially regenerated then and receives the capacity to understand God, and the need for God. Then are placed somewhere between Life and Death to make the biggest decision of their lives, knowing exactly the consequences of each decision? Okay who in their right mind would ever choose to reject God and go to hell? This makes no sense at all! Okay so what happens if one does reject God's offer, what happens next, do they lose all partially regenerated faculties and go back to being dead sin and trespasses, are they flashed like in the MIB movie to lose their memory as if nothing ever happened???? What??? Makes no sense at all! This is when I recanted Arminianism and became a Classical Calvinist after hearing the Doctrines of Grace that Calvinism teaches and taught in Scripture!

By Grace Alone in Christ Alone through Faith Alone!​

 

[fastfredy0]

There is one question I must ask, does the bible teach such a doctrine as prevenient grace? If so, where?

John 1:9 "The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world."
Titus 2:11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
God must have granted man the power to choose him because otherwise the warnings, invitations, and commands in Scripture are meaningless.
1 Timothy 2:4 who wishes all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge and recognition of the [divine] truth.

Disclaimer: the thoughts and opinions of this post do not necessarily represent those of the poster. (insurance against lightning strikes from above)

 

[Eleanor]

John 1:9 "The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world."
Titus 2:11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
John 12:32 "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."
God must have granted man the power to choose him because otherwise the warnings, invitations, and commands in Scripture are meaningless.
1 Timothy 2:4 who wishes all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge and recognition of the [divine] truth.

Disclaimer: the thoughts and opinions of this post do not necessarily represent those of the poster. (insurance against lightning strikes from above)

Perhaps we can deflect those lightning strikes with the realization that "all" and "every" have two meanings:

1) all/every without exception (all mankind),
2) all/every without distinction (Gentiles as well as Jews).

 

[fastfredy0]

Perhaps we can deflect those lightning strikes

I thought I'd stand beside an Arminian and hope the lighting bolt was only strong enough to take out one of us.

he realization that "all" and "every" have two meanings:

Exactly .... add everyone, everybody .... and the ambiguous word WORLD