Preterism is true....no bones about it. Right?

[3 Resurrections]

Since there is only one second coming, or a pure heresy, which is it?

Of course there was only going to be one second coming. Just like there was only one first coming of Christ, and just like there will be only one third coming of Christ in our future also. Several scriptures present regular human history continuing onward after Christ's second coming return. That necessitates a third coming of Christ to resurrect those believers who have lived and died on earth since that second coming.

Any bodily remains relics - regardless of what name is assigned to them - cannot possibly belong to any saint who died before AD 70. All the physically-dead saints from creation until AD 70 were resurrected and taken to heaven back then at Christ's second coming.

Those bodily remains relics might be the remains of an unbeliever who died before then, because the physical bodily remains of the wicked dead never rise from the grave. (Sorry, King Thut.) Or those bodily remains relics might be of a believer who died after the AD 70 resurrection event. In that case, these individuals will be resurrected at the third bodily resurrection event in our future.

 

[CrowCross]

That necessitates a third coming of Christ to resurrect those believers who have lived and died on earth since that second coming.

Scripture please.

 

[TMSO]

Yes it was a false statement. You said....Dispensationalists/modern futurists who believe the rapture and resurrection are two separate events.

1 Thes 4:16....is a single event. The resurrection and rapture happen in the same account.

As a futurist, that is something that I have held. They do not happen in the same account, because the dead in Christ who get a head start aren't coming back to life to live on earth. As such, it doesn't fit the understanding of the resurrection. Those in the first resurrection are entering the millennial kingdom here on earth, so they are alive again.

I don't have a set stance on it now, because I am too busy watching the signs possibly unfolding before us today. Someone brought up Damascus and a prophecy I believe was in Hosea, but I don't remember off hand. I have entered the laboratory, and am observing all that is happening. So far it feels like a setup, like seeing the fig tree and realizing summer is near. It isn't here yet, but it is near.

 

[TMSO]

Of course there was only going to be one second coming. Just like there was only one first coming of Christ, and just like there will be only one third coming of Christ in our future also.

So those young men lied to the disciples? Understood.

Several scriptures present regular human history continuing onward after Christ's second coming return. That necessitates a third coming of Christ to resurrect those believers who have lived and died on earth since that second coming.

Except it does not. Jesus second coming is as King. It is the fulfillment of the disciples question. What will be the sign of your coming. That word coming in the greek has to do with a king entering/visiting their kingdom. Jesus second coming is his entering his kingdom, which we know as the millennial kingdom. When Jesus is done subjecting all to Himself, He will return the kingdom to His Father. (I Corinthians 15:24). The millennial kingdom is not the eternal kingdom to come. It is God's fulfillment of promises made in the Old Testament, and the foreshadowing of the eternal kingdom of the next age.

Any bodily remains relics - regardless of what name is assigned to them - cannot possibly belong to any saint who died before AD 70. All the physically-dead saints from creation until AD 70 were resurrected and taken to heaven back then at Christ's second coming.

Except you have no scriptural evidence to support this. Yes they came out of their graves, but as testimony. Lazarus, the little boy Elijah resurrected, the young man Paul resurrected, these saints who rose and were seen in Jerusalem, they died again. Perhaps they didn't, but the Bible is silent on that point. However, there are other people who were resurrected recorded in scripture, and either they became immortal and waited for that day (totally falsifying what God said in Genesis), or they died again.

Those bodily remains relics might be the remains of an unbeliever who died before then, because the physical bodily remains of the wicked dead never rise from the grave. (Sorry, King Thut.) Or those bodily remains relics might be of a believer who died after the AD 70 resurrection event. In that case, these individuals will be resurrected at the third bodily resurrection event in our future.

It can be the physical remains of the saints. They will meet Jesus in the air via Thessalonians. Paul spoke of that as a future event. That resurrection event you speak of was in 33 AD, not 70 AD. Those people didn't remain in Jerusalem, they were only seen there. It doesn't even say that anyone spoke to them. You have to stop at what is presented in scripture. Conjecture can and does lead to heresy.

 

[CrowCross]

As a futurist, that is something that I have held. They do not happen in the same account, because the dead in Christ who get a head start aren't coming back to life to live on earth.

Sounds like the same event...

1 Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.......are you saying there is a long time span between verse 16 and 17?

 

[CrowCross]

Someone brought up Damascus and a prophecy I believe was in Hosea, but I don't remember off hand.

I believe you may be refering to Isaiah 17:1

 

[3 Resurrections]

Scripture please.

I'm sure you remember 2 Corinthians 5:10. "For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

Also Romans 14:10-12. "Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will ALL stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: 'As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God.' So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God."

Every single believer must give an accounting of their activity while in the body. Fortunately, the blood of Christ and His righteousness will be the covering for any of our past sins on that day. But this does NOT mean that this required accounting for ALL believers must be done on a single occasion only at Christ's second coming.

Since Christ stated in no uncertain terms that He would be returning in that first-century generation to give rewards to every one according to their works, and while some of those He was speaking to directly at that time were still alive (Matt. 16:27-28), that necessarily requires that yet another resurrection and judgment event take place for the rest of the believers who will have lived and died since that time. At a THIRD coming. Because ALL must give an accounting, sooner or later.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So those young men lied to the disciples? Understood.

I'm afraid you will have to explain your question. What young men are you talking about?

Except it does not. Jesus second coming is as King. It is the fulfillment of the disciples question. What will be the sign of your coming. That word coming in the greek has to do with a king entering/visiting their kingdom. Jesus second coming is his entering his kingdom, which we know as the millennial kingdom.

Christ "entered His kingdom" by becoming our anointed, enthroned Great High priest at His resurrection-day ascension. Any returns of Christ are done while He is STILL continuing in that same role of "King of kings" / Great High Priest.

The literal millennium ENDED at that "First resurrection" in AD 33 when Christ was anointed our Great High Priest. This caused Satan to lose his ability to accuse the brethren, and he with his devils were cast out of heaven to the earth for just a "short time" and a "little season" at the end of that millennium in AD 33.

Except you have no scriptural evidence to support this. Yes they came out of their graves, but as testimony. Lazarus, the little boy Elijah resurrected, the young man Paul resurrected, these saints who rose and were seen in Jerusalem, they died again. Perhaps they didn't, but the Bible is silent on that point.

No, the Bible is NOT silent on that point. It states quite clearly that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27). It also says quite clearly that in the bodily-resurrected state, "Neither CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE, for they are equal to the angels" (Luke 20:36). It is simply not physically possible for an individual to die a second time, once they are bodily resurrected.

It can be the physical remains of the saints. They will meet Jesus in the air via Thessalonians. Paul spoke of that as a future event.

It was future to PAUL'S time - but not future to us today. That "rapture" Paul described in 1 Thess. 4 has already happened back on AD 70's Pentecost day, according to Daniel's very precise prediction of the 1,335th day for that (second) resurrection event.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm sure you remember 2 Corinthians 5:10. "For we must ALL appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done

Of course...but before we proceed further...are you aware there are two judgements? The White Throne for the non-believers and the Bema Seat for the believers?

 

[CrowCross]

Since Christ stated in no uncertain terms that He would be returning in that first-century generation

No He didn't. If it were in such "uncertain terms" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No He didn't. If it were in such "uncertain terms" we wouldn't be having this discussion.

What part of "I'll be back before some of you standing here have died" do you not understand? Seems clear to me.

Of course...but before we proceed further...are you aware there are two judgements? The White Throne for the non-believers and the Bema Seat for the believers?

Sheep and goats together are part of the same judgment seat. Just different fates for them both. Except for the "First resurrection" in AD 33, where there weren't any goats in that bodily resurrection. Just saints were among that Matthew 27:52-53 group of Jewish saints coming out of their graves.

 

[CrowCross]

What part of "I'll be back before some of you standing here have died" do you not understand? Seems clear to me.

I'm not sure that's what the verse says...can you present the verse which claims what you just said?

Sheep and goats together are part of the same judgment seat. Just different fates for them both. Except for the "First resurrection" in AD 33, where there weren't any goats in that bodily resurrection. Just saints were among that Matthew 27:52-53 group of Jewish saints coming out of their graves.

Your theology is getting strange. Some may call it somewhat esoteric.

 

[TMSO]

I believe you may be refering to Isaiah 17:1

That could very well be it. I don't look deep enough into these things right now. There are some really interesting prophecies in Hosea however.

 

[TMSO]

I'm afraid you will have to explain your question. What young men are you talking about?

I'm surprised you didn't recognize the young men who came to the disciples as Jesus was ascending and said that Jesus would return in like manner. Bodily and visibly.

Christ "entered His kingdom" by becoming our anointed, enthroned Great High priest at His resurrection-day ascension. Any returns of Christ are done while He is STILL continuing in that same role of "King of kings" / Great High Priest.

That does not fit tradition. Tradition states that Israel is both the seat of King David, and Melchizedek, hence the kingdom will be in Jerusalem, where He will fulfill both roles as mentioned in scripture.

The literal millennium ENDED at that "First resurrection" in AD 33 when Christ was anointed our Great High Priest. This caused Satan to lose his ability to accuse the brethren, and he with his devils were cast out of heaven to the earth for just a "short time" and a "little season" at the end of that millennium in AD 33.

Jesus is to be both priest and king as Melchizedek. Satan is still accusing the bretheren. We still live, we still sin, and he still accuses. He isn't cast out until the great war that occurs when God violates (in Satan's view) Satan's dominion. It causes quite the stir, which results in all out war.

No, the Bible is NOT silent on that point. It states quite clearly that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." (Hebrews 9:27). It also says quite clearly that in the bodily-resurrected state, "Neither CAN THEY DIE ANYMORE, for they are equal to the angels" (Luke 20:36). It is simply not physically possible for an individual to die a second time, once they are bodily resurrected.

Wow. God violated scripture many times then. The young boy with Elijah, the young man with Paul, etc. The other possibility is that it wasn't resurrection, but a special event. That is how I had always seen it. Consider that Jesus had just released all those souls from purgatory to heaven. (He led captive a host of captives).

It was future to PAUL'S time - but not future to us today. That "rapture" Paul described in 1 Thess. 4 has already happened back on AD 70's Pentecost day, according to Daniel's very precise prediction of the 1,335th day for that (second) resurrection event.

What prediction? If you are going to say something like that you need to give the reference.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'm not sure that's what the verse says...can you present the verse which claims what you just said?

Matthew 16:27-28. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." This was spoken not only to the disciples, but to the crowds of people also gathered to listen to Christ (Mark 8:34). Some of those people listening to Christ at that time were still alive when His second bodily coming occurred, just as He said.

Your theology is getting strange. Some may call it somewhat esoteric.

Surely you don't need me to give you the entire quote about the sheep separated at the right hand of the Son of Man and the goats set on the left hand in the same judgment scenario? (Matthew 25:31-46). These are the same conditions as the parable of the "wheat and tares" being harvested together, and then separated. Or the "net" which gathered both bad and good together, and which were separated from each other with the bad cast away - at the same time.

And the bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints was ONLY of the "many bodies of the SAINTS" which came out of those graves around Jerusalem. This is not a personal invention of mine that no unbelievers were bodily raised on that day of Christ's resurrection - namely the "FIRST resurrection" of the " First-fruits". If you consider this to be strange...well, the scriptures truly are strange to us anyway. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways our ways.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I'm surprised you didn't recognize the young men who came to the disciples as Jesus was ascending and said that Jesus would return in like manner. Bodily and visibly.

Oh, those two men. Of course...I agree absolutely that Christ was to return "in like manner" - both bodily and visibly. Which He already did back in AD 70, and was witnessed by every eye of "those who pierced Him" (Rev. 1:7).

That does not fit tradition. Tradition states that Israel is both the seat of King David, and Melchizedek, hence the kingdom will be in Jerusalem, where He will fulfill both roles as mentioned in scripture.

The traditions of men are often false. Peter on the day of Pentecost told the crowds at the temple that Christ Jesus had already been given the throne of His father David. He was already enthroned at God's right hand at that point (Acts 2:29-36). Christ also testified of His own earlier enthronement - even before His final ascension - when He said "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." (Matthew 28:18). Christ is already Prophet, Priest, and King (after the deathless order of Melchizedek). This has been the case ever since AD 33.

Satan is still accusing the bretheren. We still live, we still sin, and he still accuses

No, Satan was cast out at Christ's resurrection-day ascension, ending that war in heaven, with Satan losing forever the ability to accuse the brethren. " There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ..." (Romans 8:1). And "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us." (Romans 8:34).

Wow. God violated scripture many times then. The young boy with Elijah, the young man with Paul, etc. The other possibility is that it wasn't resurrection, but a special event. That is how I had always seen it.

What "violation" are you talking about? God granted those few individuals a bodily resurrection back in the OT - and those bodily resurrections were never withdrawn. NOBODY physically dies twice. ONCE only, according to the Hebrews 9:27 standard. There is no difference between those OT resurrection events and any other bodily resurrection mentioned in scripture. ALL of them were to the condition of immortality and incorruptibility.

What prediction? If you are going to say something like that you need to give the reference.

Daniel 12:11-13 predicted the exact day in which the bodily resurrection event of Daniel 12:1 would occur - namely, on the 1,335th day after two very specific events had taken place. These two events took place in the same season of the year back in AD 66, beginning that countdown of 1,335 days until a bodily resurrection took place at Christ's second coming return. That day fell on AD 70's Pentecost Day.

 

[CrowCross]

Matthew 16:27-28. "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." This was spoken not only to the disciples, but to the crowds of people also gathered to listen to Christ (Mark 8:34). Some of those people listening to Christ at that time were still alive when His second bodily coming occurred, just as He said.

One has to wonder why the next story in the bible is the Mt. of Transfiguration....You don't believe me? Go look.
Peter, James, and John the brother of James were present for verse 16 and then again in verse 17....they saw Jesus transfigure before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.....You don't have to agree with that popular interpretation.

Surely you don't need me to give you the entire quote about the sheep separated at the right hand of the Son of Man and the goats set on the left hand in the same judgment scenario? (Matthew 25:31-46). These are the same conditions as the parable of the "wheat and tares" being harvested together, and then separated. Or the "net" which gathered both bad and good together, and which were separated from each other with the bad cast away - at the same time.

And the bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints was ONLY of the "many bodies of the SAINTS" which came out of those graves around Jerusalem. This is not a personal invention of mine that no unbelievers were bodily raised on that day of Christ's resurrection - namely the "FIRST resurrection" of the " First-fruits". If you consider this to be strange...well, the scriptures truly are strange to us anyway. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, nor His ways our ways.

This only mentioned one "resurrection" happened prior to Jesus resurrecting.
Did these people die again? I say, probably.

 

[CrowCross]

Surely you don't need me to give you the entire quote about the sheep separated at the right hand of the Son of Man and the goats set on the left hand in the same judgment scenario? (Matthew 25:31-46). These are the same conditions as the parable of the "wheat and tares" being harvested together, and then separated. Or the "net" which gathered both bad and good together, and which were separated from each other with the bad cast away - at the same time.

Are thse not the tribulation saints?

 

[3 Resurrections]

One has to wonder why the next story in the bible is the Mt. of Transfiguration....You don't believe me? Go look.

Christ did not "return" on the Mount of Transfiguration. Nor were angels present. Nor were rewards given out according to every man's works. This is a common method of trying to wriggle out of Christ's very plain statement in Matthew 16:27-28 that He would return while some of those in the crowd of people were still alive. But that common "popular" method of interpretation doesn't work at all according to the context.

This only mentioned one "resurrection" happened prior to Jesus resurrecting.
Did these people die again? I say, probably.

These Matthew 27:52-53 saints came out of their graves "AFTER" Christ's resurrection that same day. It was the newly-crowned Son of Man in heaven, sitting on a cloud, that by Himself harvested those saints out of their graves with that first sickle (as in Revelation 14:14-16).

It was not physically possible for these Matthew 27:52-53 saints to have died again. That idea goes against every scripture rule. Even though I hear that idea constantly propounded, there is absolutely no scripture proof of resurrected individuals physically dying a second time. It's not even remotely possible.

Are thse not the tribulation saints?

Christ said for that particular (second) bodily resurrection event that these dead would be coming "from all nations" (Matt. 25:32). Every saint from creation forward until AD 70's Pentecost day stood before Christ on that occasion, and were judged for the works done while in their body, with rewards given out according to what they had done. The "Great Tribulation" had already taken place in Judea from AD 66 until AD 70, as the "Days of Vengeance" against those of His own people who had rejected Him.

 

[Josheb]

Yes it was a false statement.

No, it wasn't and I provided evidence of the statements veracity with a Dispensationalist pastor teaching four resurrections.

You said....Dispensationalists/modern futurists who believe the rapture and resurrection are two separate events.

1 Thes 4:16....is a single event. The resurrection and rapture happen in the same account.

No, all that proves is that you think the rapture and the resurrection of Christians, those "dead in Christ," occurs at the same time. That verse states absolutely nothing about those dead outside of Christ. Technically, that verse doesn't mention the word "rapture" or "resurrection;" it simply states the dead in Christ will rise. The Greek "anistemi" (G450) also means stand up, rise up, set up, or appear, and it is used in all those ways in the New Testament.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

My comment is not a false statement. Dispensationalism teaches multiple resurrections. EVERYONE is raised to face God's judgment, and some Dispensationalists, like Peter Goeman, who teach as many as four resurrections. No other theology in Christendom teaches a multiple-resurrections (or a separation of the rapture from the resurrection).


Not even preterists believe that .


Here's a chart showing various beliefs from various eschatological points of views:

That chart* was made by a Dispensationalist, Timothy Paul Jones, in his book. the "Rose Guide to End-Times Prophecy." Note that the chart plainly states Dispensationalism holds the rapture and the resurrection do NOT occur at the same time, while everyone else believes they do. Historic Premillennialism sides with everyone else. Dispensational Premillennialism is the outlier. Now, to bring it back to this op, which is specifically about preterism, there are some preterists who believe the prophesied resurrection has occurred. They are called full preterists but full preterism is a statistical and normative outlier and NOT the position held by most preterists.


In other words, unlike the opening post of this thread, I used Dispensationalist views taken from Dispensationalists and measured Dispensationalism by what Dispensationalism teaches relevant to scripture. This op attempts to measure full preterism by implicitly conflating full preterism with all preterism and measuring full preterism by what Dispensationalism teaches, not what preterism teaches relevant to scripture. It's not hard to find full preterist sources. Neither is it hard to find partial preterism in all the other views that shows the differences between full preterism and partial preterism (and I provided some information helpful for that purpose).

The irony is that you, apparently, believe something different than the rest of Dispensational Premillennialism teaches! Believing the rapture and resurrection occur simultaneously is clearly something different than what Dispensationalism teaches. That chart shows Dispensationalism holds the rapture is a raising of Christians only and the resurrection of everyone else occurs on another occasion...... according to their view of end times. AND the impulse to prove that position unified position here in this thread is so compelling that it prompts a digression from this op, which is supposed to be about full preterism, not partial preterism and not Dispensationalism.

Now, if desired, I can post a few quotes from full preterists speaking about full preterism relevant to scripture to further help the discussion of this op. I can also post a few quotes by leading partial prets and leading dispies pertaining to what each point of view teaches about itself and/or about the separated rapture and the multiple resurrections but 1) that's not my responsibility since I'm not the one asserting this op (and that evidence should have already been posted), and 2) the quotes from Dispensationalists are all going to be off-topic (non-preterist) and prove my earlier point that Dispensationalists chronically misrepresent preterism as a whole and invariably conflate full preterism and partial preterism. Most do not portray preterism correctly. That makes them false teachers. If a boogieman is going to be created, then they should at least identify the boogieman correctly. For the sake of the efficacy of this op, those commonly occurring mistakes should be avoided.

My statements are correct, demonstrably correct, and the evidence proving their veracity has been provided. Consider this information an aid to this op's purpose and adjust future posts accordingly.









* keep in mind the end times view of Idealism is not shown in the chart but as far as the chart goes, its views would largely overlap that of Amillennialism, and all four views contain some degree of preterism.
.