Our incomprehensible God.

[Runningman]

No you aren't. You are given scriptures that show Jesus is God. You say Jesus is nowhere worshiped as God in the Bible. YOu are shown scriptures that directly say He was.

None of them say he is God in their contexts. They say "Son of God." The Son of God doesn't mean God.

You come back with a scripture from somewhere else that says Jesus has a God or calls God His Father. As if to say, "But look what is says over here!" Completely ignoring the fact of those scriptures that rebutted what YOU said about Jesus. That is pitting scripture against scripture. Not sola scriptura, which you are also misusing as to its meaning. Sola scriptura has to do with the authority of the Bible in all things for the church and its doctrines and practices.

I am using the authority of the Bible to give the full counsel of scripture that explain the true meaning of verses/passages that are being isolated from their context. If a verse shows Jesus is being bowed to and the translators decided to use the word "worship" for that, but then there are examples of Jesus not being God then the worship can't be understood as being a refence to deity.

We can even look at what God, Jesus, and the apostles taught. Did any of them teach Christians to worship Jesus? No. Did Jesus ask for worship? No. Did Jesus talk about who to worship and, when he did, who did he say to worship and who is seeking worship? The Father. There isn't even a hint at worshipping the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't it concern you that the only one in your Trinity who worship is taught to be directed to is the Father if there are others who make up your godhead?

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.

What you are missing in your interpretive method is continuity of Scripture. The Bible is one continuous book and it is the story of redemption, as it unfolds in history (actual historic events and people, that take place in our time and world) from beginning to end. It comes from God in who there is no contradiction, no shadow of turning, and exists in His wisdom and knowledge and power, in full, before it ever comes to pass in our world. As an analogy----someone writing a novel. The author knows the story, the characters, the events, and you won't find the protagonist being said to born in Iowa and seven chapters in, all of a sudden being born is California, first her name is Cleo but the writer periodically decides to give her a different name. IOW the facts are kept consistent and not contradictory. So it is with the Bible. Its truth and its message are God's to us, and there are no contradictions. You consistently use scriptures as contradictions to other clear truths.

That's what I agree with what the Bible is like, too, but actually it's you who is distorting the scripture. I suspect you aren't doing it intentionally. There are masses of people, some estimated tens of thousands of denominations, who are wrestling over the Bible saying they all have the truth with a sincere look on their face, but if all put in a room together they would eat each other alive, so to speak.

So what makes you think that you somehow have the correct understanding of all of this when even the most learned, well-read, well-studied, doctors, theologians, and translators of Trinitarianism conclude the Trinity is a paradox? If it's a paradox the premise is flawed and God cannot be known or truly understood using scripture. Fortunately, the Bible doesn't actually say what Trinitarian commentators say it does.

 

[Runningman]

Matthew 28:9, 17, John 20:28, Luke 24:52

Philippians 2:10,11 Revelation 22:9

 

[Binyawmene]

Philippians 2:10,11

Amen. To worship the Son is to give glory to the Father.

11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

- The Son receives glory from the Father
1. The Father glorifies the Son (Isaiah 42:8, Hebrews 1:3, 2 Peter 1:17).
2. At the Son's water baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22).
3. At the Son's transfiguration (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).
4. Before the Son's passion (John 8:54, 12:23, 27-30, 13:31-32, 17:1, 5, 24).
5. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10, Revelations 5:11-13).

Revelation 22:9

Amen. Worship God, Jesus is not an angel.

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

- The Son is worshiped
1. Worshiped God only (Luke 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 6:13-15).
2. The Son is worshiped by three wise men (Matthew 2:2, 11).
3. The Son is worshiped by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:9).
4. The Son is worshiped by the disciples (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52).
5. The Son is worshiped by all angels (Hebrews 1:6, Revelations 5:11-12).
6. The Son is worshiped by every creature (Revelations 5:13, Philippians 2:10-11).

Do you know how to harmonize scriptures?

 

[grace2]

"harmonizing those scriptures."

You are not harmonizing with Jesus' word. Rather, picking the verses against most of Jesus' warnings and claims.

That's why it is disastrous.

 

[grace2]

Do you know how to harmonize scriptures?

You don't know what it means to harmonize the legit teaching of Jesus.

That's the main problem of trin churches and their followers.

That's why you guys ought to call yourselves Trinitarians instead of Christians.

 

[Runningman]

Amen. To worship the Son is to give glory to the Father.

11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

So when Jesus is bowed to by anyone in heaven, earth, or under earth then according to scripture he doesn't get any glory for that, but instead all glory goes to the one called God the Father? Okay, then Jesus isn't God.

- The Son receives glory from the Father
1. The Father glorifies the Son (Isaiah 42:8, Hebrews 1:3, 2 Peter 1:17).
2. At the Son's water baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22).
3. At the Son's transfiguration (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).
4. Before the Son's passion (John 8:54, 12:23, 27-30, 13:31-32, 17:1, 5, 24).
5. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10, Revelations 5:11-13).

Receiving glory from God doesn't make someone God.

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

Romans 8
30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Amen. Worship God, Jesus is not an angel.

8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your fellow prophets and with all who keep the words of this scroll. Worship God!”

Angel actually just means messenger. It doesn't have to refer to an angelic being like a cherubim or seraphim.

In Revelation 22:8-13, the one speaking is a messenger who refused to be worshipped as God is Jesus. It's apparent from the narrative where the messenger is speaking then suddenly without any introduction Jesus said "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Jesus is a messenger who refused to be worshipped as God.

- The Son is worshiped
1. Worshiped God only (Luke 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 6:13-15).
2. The Son is worshiped by three wise men (Matthew 2:2, 11).
3. The Son is worshiped by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:9).
4. The Son is worshiped by the disciples (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52).
5. The Son is worshiped by all angels (Hebrews 1:6, Revelations 5:11-12).
6. The Son is worshiped by every creature (Revelations 5:13, Philippians 2:10-11).

Do you know how to harmonize scriptures?

All of those examples are in context of being "Son of God" not God. Big difference.

 

[Arial]

None of them say he is God in their contexts. They say "Son of God." The Son of God doesn't mean God.

It is in their contexts that do say He is God. You have demonstrated before and do so again, that you do not know what context means. You do that with a lot of words, and even when you are corrected, you ignore the correction and simply give a comeback. Usually one of deflection and goal post moving.

Though son of God is used in scripture at times to mean those He created, or those He appointed as crucial figures He appointed for specific elements of the progressive redemption (and only in the OT), or even angels, it is a unique expression concerning Jesus and only concerning Jesus, because Jesus is unique, (being the only one.)

He is the only human who is not born in Adam, therefore not created.
He is the only man who is without sin.
He is the only man who substituted Himself for the sins of the world.
He is the only man who redeemed a people and not only that but through His work defeated the power of sin and death over them. removing the curse of the law.
He is the only one who died and rose again, and ascended into heaven to be seated beside the Father.
He is the only one who is bringing in and will bring in, a whole new creation with no evil in it.
He is the only one who who was present with God and through whom everything was created.
He is the only one who did not have an earthly father but was fathered by the Holy Spirit.
The only one who was born of a human virgin.
The only man who shed His blood as the blood of a new covenant relationship.

So when the Bible refers to Jesus as the Son of God it means something entirely unique. He is of the same kind as His Father---deity----and also of the same kind as His mother---human. He is not half human and half deity. He is 100% of His Father---deity----and 100% of His mother---human. Having not been born in Adam, He has a human nature from Mary, that is able to sin, but is not guaranteed to sin. He was not born a sinner as we are. As Son of God, He was sent and came, for the very purpose of completing perfect righteousness for those He would redeem, it was ordained that He would do this and so He would not sin. No man created from the dust, so to speak, for that is where we all ultimately came from, could possibly possess the necessary royalty and dignity to bring about eternal life for fallen creatures for all time and eternally. Eternity itself, Life itself, could only do this.

I could, and would, and have, given you scripture for everything I said above, as have others. But you simply call them "proof texts" showing that you do not even know what proof texting is, or that you do nothing but proof text. Even though at least twice I have explained the difference in what is proof texting and what is not. That too goes in one ear and out the other. I can understand that if the sole purpose is for disruption, or so desperately needing to hold onto a perverted view of Jesus as utterly human and for whatever reason. But learning and growing at the expense of finding what one thought was true is not true, the perceived humility of that (as opposed to being humbled and humble) does not appear to be the motive.

IOW truth, no matter what the cost, is not the goal. So convinced are you that you have all truth concerning Christ that to entertain anything else. to think you could ever be wrong, is just too much to bear.

 

[grace2]

. to think you could ever be wrong, is just too much to bear.

the truth is the truth is the truth, baby.

Trins train themselves to memorize their formulas or man-made doctrines and dance around based on their "truth".

The more memorized, the more knowledgeable.

That's your standard and call it scriptual.

 

[Binyawmene]

So when Jesus is bowed to by anyone in heaven, earth, or under earth then according to scripture he doesn't get any glory for that, but instead all glory goes to the one called God the Father? Okay, then Jesus isn't God.


Receiving glory from God doesn't make someone God.

John 17
22I have given them the glory You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one—

Romans 8
30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.


Angel actually just means messenger. It doesn't have to refer to an angelic being like a cherubim or seraphim.

In Revelation 22:8-13, the one speaking is a messenger who refused to be worshipped as God is Jesus. It's apparent from the narrative where the messenger is speaking then suddenly without any introduction Jesus said "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Jesus is a messenger who refused to be worshipped as God.


All of those examples are in context of being "Son of God" not God. Big difference.

Do you know how to harmonize scriptures?

Pitting scriptures against scriptures, example:
Isaiah 42:8 <---> 2 Peter 1:17
Luke 4:5-8 <---> Philippians 2:10-11

That's the Trinity framework:
- To worship and glorify the Father is to worship and glorify the Son and the Holy Spirit.
- To worship and glorify the Son is to worship and glorify the Father and the Holy Spirit.
- To worship and glorify the Holy Spirit is to worship and glorify the Father and the Son.

Nicene Creed
And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets.

I don't think you know how to harmonize scriptures.

 

[grace2]

Do you know how to harmonize scriptures?

You are the ones who don't know how to harmonize scripture with Jesus' word.

You guys deliberately avoid harmonizing with Jesus' word.

non-trins dont harmonize with Trins' understanding or reading of the Scripture.

So your question is moot to Jesus' God followers.

You will not succeed in twisting non-trins' reading of the Bible to trins' level.

 

[Carbon]

Awesome verses!
But sadly, scripture does not seem to help with some.

Matthew 28:9, 17, John 20:28, Luke 24:52

 

[Carbon]

No you aren't. You are given scriptures that show Jesus is God. You say Jesus is nowhere worshiped as God in the Bible. YOu are shown scriptures that directly say He was. You come back with a scripture from somewhere else that says Jesus has a God or calls God His Father. As if to say, "But look what is says over here!" Completely ignoring the fact of those scriptures that rebutted what YOU said about Jesus. That is pitting scripture against scripture. Not sola scriptura, which you are also misusing as to its meaning. Sola scriptura has to do with the authority of the Bible in all things for the church and its doctrines and practices.

Suppressing the truth.

What you are missing in your interpretive method is continuity of Scripture. The Bible is one continuous book and it is the story of redemption, as it unfolds in history (actual historic events and people, that take place in our time and world) from beginning to end. It comes from God in who there is no contradiction, no shadow of turning, and exists in His wisdom and knowledge and power, in full, before it ever comes to pass in our world. As an analogy----someone writing a novel. The author knows the story, the characters, the events, and you won't find the protagonist being said to born in Iowa and seven chapters in, all of a sudden being born is California, first her name is Cleo but the writer periodically decides to give her a different name. IOW the facts are kept consistent and not contradictory. So it is with the Bible. Its truth and its message are God's to us, and there are no contradictions. You consistently use scriptures as contradictions to other clear truths.

Amen

 

[Carbon]

Repeated lengthy postings are so annoying too.

Then don’t read them.

 

[Carbon]

I don't think you know how to harmonize scriptures.

Yea, that’s pretty obvious

 

[Carbon]

You are the ones who don't know how to harmonize scripture with Jesus' word.

You guys deliberately avoid harmonizing with Jesus' word.

non-trins dont harmonize with Trins' understanding or reading of the Scripture.

So your question is moot to Jesus' God followers.

You will not succeed in twisting non-trins' reading of the Bible to trins' level.

Try using scripture.

 

[Arial]

I am using the authority of the Bible to give the full counsel of scripture that explain the true meaning of verses/passages that are being isolated from their context.

You absolutely are not. Give me a definition of "the full counsel of scripture". Give me an example of you not using verses/passages that are not isolated from their context and also isolated from the full counsel of God. Go ahead. I suspect this post of mine will never be directly answered.

If a verse shows Jesus is being bowed to and the translators decided to use the word "worship" for that, but then there are examples of Jesus not being God then the worship can't be understood as being a refence to deity.

To do this is a prime example of not using the full counsel of God, of isolating scriptures. It is creating contradictions and picking the contradiction that suits you presuppositions. Eisegesis in other words. You use two fallacious supports. One---it is the translators fault. Two---if it doesn't fit your premise it means something else.

We can even look at what God, Jesus, and the apostles taught. Did any of them teach Christians to worship Jesus? No. Did Jesus God hask for worship? No. Did Jesus talk about who to worship and, when he did, who did he say to worship and who is seeking worship? The Father.

It is the resurrected Jesus who is worshiped as God because He is God. God does tell us to worship Jesus. Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore (which means vs 1-8 are the reason for what follows--- context) God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Is there more than one Lord?

There isn't even a hint at worshipping the Holy Spirit. Why doesn't it concern you that the only one in your Trinity who worship is taught to be directed to is the Father if there are others who make up your godhead?

Moving the goal post. The subject was the worship of Jesus. But to answer your question in Trinitarianism God is not worshiped in parts. Worshipping God is worshiping the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Worshiping God as He is.

John 4
23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.

A Son calls His Father, Father. Jesus came as one of us, from the Godhead. Those in Christ have God's covenant name. Father. The Father is God and God is a triune being. Those who worship in spirit and in truth worship Him as He is and declares Himself to be. The Father who sends the Son to redeem, the Son who comes and does the work of redemption, the Holy Spirit who applies that redemption to a person and seals them in Christ. If they were not all deity, and did not all exist as deity, there would be no redemption. The death of a creature cannot purchase eternal life for anyone. The purchaser but BE Life.

 

[Arial]

Dismissing the Lord's warnings and word is so deceptive coming from so-called "saved Christians."

How's the yard and garden work coming along?

 

[Arial]

Repeated lengthy postings are so annoying too.

Why would they annoy you? You don't read them anyway.

 

[grace2]

Why would they annoy you? You don't read them anyway.

they address me with questions.

 

[grace2]

How's the yard and garden work coming along?

It will be blooming soon. I will show you when that happens.

All I have blooming is only rose bushes which is beautiful too.