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Mystery of the most holy trinity!

donadams said:
Never ending verses show Christ is God!

The Lord my salvation!

Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Psalm 27:1
The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Jesus Christ our salvation Lk 2:30)
Click to expand...
None of those verses show Jesus as being God. You could pull a trinity out of the back side of donkey.
 
Binyawmene said:
Through my many years of Hypostatic Union discussions. The most famous of them all is a topic on contradictions. And the majority of them that bring up contradictions doesn't know what the Hypostatic Union doctrine actually teaches. Nor do they know how to define a negation or even know how to negate a logical conjunction. Its almost like they read a Wikipedia article online or some kind of anti-Trinity article, and then, automatically think they are masters in the discipline of logic.



Imagine that. You are still making the same fallacious argument that I've refuted. The only difference is that you reworded it, but it's the same concept, nevertheless. Your original fallacious argument "Jesus Christ is a man negates him being God." Now, instead of using "man negates God" you switch it to "human nature negates Divine Nature." You still haven't demonstrated a negated conjunction. Maybe you should simply admit that you don't know how.

The Hypostatic Union teaches a "union" of two natures by the Person of the Son. There is not an additional nature added to the Divine Nature. I'm assuming you want to represent the doctrine correctly regardless of what your Unitarian leaders told you. Anyways, It is correct to say that the "human nature" is not the "Divine Nature;" some Unitarians mistakenly assume that the "human nature" is a negation of the "Divine Nature," i.e. they erroneously make it mean "not God". They are applying the LNC (which is not how you negate a logical conjunction) from the phrase "both God and Man" and excluding out "man" and replacing it with "not God," the arriving at an invalid logical form and distorting the meaning and logical conjunction altogether. So, what they have done was restrict and isolate the conjunct G from the whole conjunction and simply ignore the conjunct M out of the equation.

The problem is that some Unitarians are committing the fallacy of equivocation by changing the phraseology's definition in the logical conjunction form, "both God and Man" with "God and not God" it creates ambiguity and vagueness from the original meaning and of the Hypostatic Union framework. Other Unitarians take it even further by replacing "man" or "not God" with some kind of synonymous words. This leads to the fallacy of accent by altering the meaning of a phrase/words, sentence, or the entire idea through a changed emphasis. That is how Unitarians are coming up with an invalid logical form, changing the syntax, and coming up with a whole different nuance, or a subtle distinction/variation of the original meaning in the phrase.



This is very weak. Wayne Grudem, "Systematic Theology" which states: "Scriptures does not tell us that "Jesus was tempted" and that "Jesus was not tempted" ...The Bible tells us that "Jesus was tempted" and "Jesus was fully Man" and "Jesus was fully God" and "God cannot be tempted". This combination of teachings from Scriptures... he could be tempted in one sense and yet, in another sense, not be tempted" (p. 538). Because Jesus has two different distinctive natures that are not in the same sense. It would be a category mistake. Being tempted is not overlapping and concurring into the Divine Nature. Jesus as a man is tempted according to the human nature only, but he cannot be tempted by evil as God according to the Divine Nature too.

The idea of "in the same sense " would be like flipping a coin once and tails came out on the same side-of-heads. You say, "heads" and I say, "No, tails" when it's obviously it landed on the heads side. But can tails literally overlap and concur on the same side-of-heads? Of course not, its a category mistake, tails do not belong to the same side-of-heads, or it would be against the natural structural framework of the coin itself, and a flat-out contradiction. Both heads and tails have their own respective sides and not the same sense, nor are they concurring and overlapping on each other side. So, a coin, cannot be both heads, not heads in the same sense.
Click to expand...
It amazes me that anyone would accept the fabricated nonsense of a hypostatic union. The word FIRSTBORN implies a beginning and being created.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
 
Trinitarians are afraid to change. Today people are shunned and shamed for believing different, especially on 'trinity'. Today it's the norm to judge and bad-mouth one another. One 'Christian' tears the other apart and openly destroys the character of his own brothers and sisters.

Trinitarians will never come clean. There are millions of TRINITARIAN authors who over the course of 1,700 years have written countless books and articles on TRINITY. Today’s notable Trinitarians like MacArthur, Barnett, and thousands of others would NEVER admit Trinity is clearly FALSE and come out of the Trinitarian closet. Christians DO NOT admit mistakes! If they were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that throws the ‘authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors under the bus!

Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the diabolical Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation. E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would have never been published.

Progressive Christianity is like the New Reformation.

Trinity is the most divisive, destructive, and contradictory doctrine in Christianity. I believe it was devised by demons to divide the church. Thousands have been tortured and murdered for rejecting it. The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) The Protestants, many of whom label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot and/or the beast, simply adopted it into their theology.

Trinity has become a cult within Christianity. Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. That's why they, "Close the Crash Doors" and shame and shun people....just like pre-trib!

This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving thousands OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity! BOTH Trinity and pre-trin nonsense is driving people out and away.
_____________________________________

Trinitarians have a history of shutting down the books of nontrinitarians. They've made sure over the years to suppress any book in opposition to Trinity. Their books just didn't get published. Do you know why that is? It's more sinister than you think. They're in too deep.

More than the doctrine itself, it's about upholding their reputation and the reputation of thousands of highly respected theologians. Over the last 1,600 years the number of books, articles written, and number messages taught and preached by these highly respected and educated Theologians supporting Trinity is in the millions!

Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. They've "Closed the Crash Doors" by shunning and shaming people. JW'S are accused by some Protestants of being a cult for disfellowshipping people and rejecting Trinity. Trinitarians are doing the same thing to non-Trinitarians.

E.W Bullinger and T.D. Jakes are perfect examples. Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation.

E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would never have been published.

Bottom line...

Christians DO NOT admit mistakes. If the 'big shots' were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors!

The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the fabricated hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have.

In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!
 
Fred said:
Thus, the Son is God.
Click to expand...
Believers are sons of God .God is not a man as a dying creature ;

When the Son of man Jesus the prophet revealed the words of the Father. The Holy Spirit declared a man must be born again, it did not exclude Jesus the Son of man.. . marvel not.

Jesus refers to us as brothers and sister of adopted the family of God . . call no man on earth Holy Father

1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
 
harmonicat said:
Worship is simple. It's when people want to show respect or honor to others. Lot worshipped the strangers who came to Sodom even though he had never seen them before. He prostrated himself before them to show them respect (Gen. 19:1).
Moses worshipped his father-in-law, whom he respected and honored (Ex. 18:7).
Trinitarians say, "only God can forgive sins." 100% false

"God can be worshipped?" - 100% false.

The biblical record shows that when someone shows honor to another, they would fall down before another. The act of falling down is worship and shows respect and honor to the one being worshipped.
--------------
Exodus 18: 7 "And Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent."

Obeisance is šāḥâ and the same word that's translated as worship, bow, bow down obeisance etc. Most translations use the terminology of bowing down.

What does the NT word proskyneō mean?
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

The meaning and usage is the same in either Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. These words for worship are also used to indicate false gods.

I'm a biblical unitarian. Jesus can be worshipped and that doesn't make him God.
Click to expand...
yes and amen. welcome to the forum by the way. Someone can be bowed to without them being God, such as is the case with Jesus for example. None of the contexts in which he was bowed to were in regards to being God, but rather the Son of God. Knees bow to Jesus only for the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
 
harmonicat said:
It amazes me that anyone would accept the fabricated nonsense of a hypostatic union. The word FIRSTBORN implies a beginning and being created.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[k] FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
Click to expand...
That's true. The Bible is clear that the Father, Yahweh, became the Son's Father on a fixed day in the literal sense of the word. The Son is offspring, he was procreated.

Psalm 2
7I will proclaim the decree
spoken to Me by Yahweh: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father.

Hebrews 1
5For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?
 
Last edited:
harmonicat said:
Trinitarians are afraid to change. Today people are shunned and shamed for believing different, especially on 'trinity'. Today it's the norm to judge and bad-mouth one another. One 'Christian' tears the other apart and openly destroys the character of his own brothers and sisters.

Trinitarians will never come clean. There are millions of TRINITARIAN authors who over the course of 1,700 years have written countless books and articles on TRINITY. Today’s notable Trinitarians like MacArthur, Barnett, and thousands of others would NEVER admit Trinity is clearly FALSE and come out of the Trinitarian closet. Christians DO NOT admit mistakes! If they were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that throws the ‘authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors under the bus!

Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the diabolical Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation. E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would have never been published.

Progressive Christianity is like the New Reformation.

Trinity is the most divisive, destructive, and contradictory doctrine in Christianity. I believe it was devised by demons to divide the church. Thousands have been tortured and murdered for rejecting it. The doctrine was devised over a period of about 300 years by the Bishops of Rome. (Not Tertullian) The Protestants, many of whom label Rome and Catholicism as the harlot and/or the beast, simply adopted it into their theology.

Trinity has become a cult within Christianity. Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. That's why they, "Close the Crash Doors" and shame and shun people....just like pre-trib!

This TRINITY doctrine is responsible for driving thousands OUT of Christianity. About half of all Christians today DO NOT believe in the man-made demon devised Trinity! BOTH Trinity and pre-trin nonsense is driving people out and away.
_____________________________________

Trinitarians have a history of shutting down the books of nontrinitarians. They've made sure over the years to suppress any book in opposition to Trinity. Their books just didn't get published. Do you know why that is? It's more sinister than you think. They're in too deep.

More than the doctrine itself, it's about upholding their reputation and the reputation of thousands of highly respected theologians. Over the last 1,600 years the number of books, articles written, and number messages taught and preached by these highly respected and educated Theologians supporting Trinity is in the millions!

Diehard Trinitarians have been in damage control since the doctrine's development. They've "Closed the Crash Doors" by shunning and shaming people. JW'S are accused by some Protestants of being a cult for disfellowshipping people and rejecting Trinity. Trinitarians are doing the same thing to non-Trinitarians.

E.W Bullinger and T.D. Jakes are perfect examples. Proof of this is the way Trinitarians treated T.D. Jakes after he came OUT of the Trinitarian closet. They did everything they could to destroy his character and reputation.

E.W. Bullinger was the secretary of the Trinitarian Society. On his death bed he revealed his rejection of trinity. He knew that had he disclosed his rejection of Trinity beforehand; his works would never have been published.

Bottom line...

Christians DO NOT admit mistakes. If the 'big shots' were to admit Trinity is ONE BIG MISTAKE, that would destroy the authority, legitimacy and reputation’ of thousands of well-respected influential Trinitarian authors!

The crux of the Trinitarian matter basically revolves around the fabricated hypostatic Union - AKA the two natures. That's really the only answer Trinitarians have.

In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!
Click to expand...
There can potentially be many things to lose for being brave enough to follow Jesus, but he was clear that following him would be something that divides people against one another. Few are really willing to do that. Many have built a life, a legacy, a reputation, and a community on falsehoods and to suddenly abandon it would could result in a loss of wealth, reputation, etc. Some Trinitarians really want to know what the Bible says and bull-headed stubbornness to Scripture is not typical of most.

Most Trinitarians I have talked to outside of forums seem to actually want to follow the Bible and are happy to be shown something it says that they may have just honestly misunderstood or didn't notice before. My neighbor is a good example of this. Good man, love him so much, and he is a Trinitarian. We get along great, help each other, respect each other, the best neighbor I have ever had.

Well, he likes to come by some times and just talk or see how I am doing. He also likes talking about the Bible. I normally just let him talk, listen to what he says, let him get it off his chest, etc. That's fine because I like to hear what he has to say. I don't remember the exact conversation, but I pointed out one day that Jesus is a different person than God and quoted a verse. It was like a lightbulb suddenly came on for him. He even talked about it the next day. I didn't tell him to believe it one way or another, but I think I pointed out that they kept calling Jesus a man even after he went to heaven.

Matt 10
34Do not assume that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to turn

‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36A man’s enemies will be the members
of his own household.’

37Anyone who loves his father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me; 38and anyone who does not take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.
 
I'm friends with people of all faiths and most of them are Trinitarian. Most of them have never researched 'trinity' on their own. They believe and accept what they've been taught.

I have never accepted trinity. Even as a young man in Catholic school I've never believed it. I was forced to go to Catholic school. My parents wanted me to go to Catholic high school but I fought that one!

I know several pastors. The moment I disclosed my rejection of Trinity - the relationship went south. One AOG cousin became a real jerk over it. He was also a jerk to his congregation and was ousted accused of running a cult - which he certainly was. Like many other pastors, it was all about control and - the MONEY!

My girlfriend's cousin is a pastor at an almost dead United Baptist Church. WOW! We no longer even talk. He became such a jerk over this Trinity baloney that the relationship has been destroyed. He was full of jabs and digs about trinity in every one of his sermons that we had to leave,

Because of this I cannot go to a Baptist or Fundamental church of any kind - or ANY trinitarian church. I go to a historic church established in 1847. It's an Open and Affirming Congregational Church - a United Church of Christ because there I can believe what I want without the backlash! I love the people there.
 
harmonicat said:
"ONLY God can be worshipped?" - 100% false.
Click to expand...

Luke 4:8
And Jesus answered, it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve.

Is only God the proper recipient of latreuō?
 
harmonicat said:
The link you've posted has about 100 scriptures listed. I'm sure I'm not the first to reject such baloney.
Makes no sense to even look at it!
Click to expand...

From the link:
"It may take some time, but it took me quite a bit of time putting this list together."

Keep hiding then.



The questions in post 511 and post 512 are still there.
 
harmonicat said:
In the 20 or so years I've debated this, NOT ONE person has ever proved the Hypostatic Union!
Click to expand...

20 years and you can't even answer the two questions I asked you.

Pitiful.
 
harmonicat said:
It amazes me that anyone would accept the fabricated nonsense of a hypostatic union.
Click to expand...

Fabricated? There is only one doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. Any form of versions of the doctrine is a deviation and heretical from the original historical position of the Chalcedonian definition.

Who is God’s Christ?

Is Jesus a man? John 8 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. Yep, AND The Son of God. Unlike All other men, Jesus was NOT conceived, procreated by a Man.
forums.carm.org
 
Binyawmene said:
Fabricated? There is only one doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. Any form of versions of the doctrine is a deviation and heretical from the original historical position of the Chalcedonian definition.

Who is God’s Christ?

Is Jesus a man? John 8 40But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. Yep, AND The Son of God. Unlike All other men, Jesus was NOT conceived, procreated by a Man.
forums.carm.org
Click to expand...
Seems you still haven't figured out the "hypostatic union" as proposed by Trinitarian theology contradicts itself.

The co-existence of the attributes of God and man cancel each other out and contradict each other, thus rendering itself null and void.

For example, If Jesus lacks any or all of the divine attributes of God then he isn't God. If Jesus does have the divine attributes of God then he isn't really a human, either, as the Bible plainly says. Thus, Jesus Christ in Trinitarian theology is an impossibility.

Paul wrote in Philippians 2:7 that Jesus is everything a human is; that Jesus could possibly be God isn't even a possibility that Paul entertained, saying Jesus is a servant and a human just like you and I. Accordingly, Paul told the Philippians to have not only believe like Jesus but act like him, too, because it's humanly possibly to be like Jesus.

Your best possible route is that Jesus is a man whom God empowered to be able to do mighty, miraculous, works by an anointing with His Holy Spirit. The source of "the Power" didn't come from Jesus, but rather God (the Power), Who's right hand Jesus the Son of Man (a human) is at.

Mark 14​
62“I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”​
​
Acts 10​
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.​
 
Runningman said:
Seems you still haven't figured out the "hypostatic union" as proposed by Trinitarian theology contradicts itself.
Click to expand...

Whatever that suppose to mean. But no worries, I'm convinced, that you are suffering from "Dunning-Kruger" effect. Last time I tried to have a Hypostatic Union discussion with you. You was struggling with the basics and failed miserably. One minute you know Greek better than Greek Scholars when you don't even know the Greek alphabet. The next day you are a master in logic and assumed that the Hypostatic Union is contradictory when you don't even know what the doctrine teaches. However, if by a miracle you can offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. For example: "Jesus Christ is both God and man" which a simple basic framework and negate a logical conjunction. Then I'll be gladly take the next step with you. Until then, you really have nothing of substance to offer but soapbox rhetoric rantings.

The co-existence of the attributes of God and man cancel each other out and contradict each other, thus rendering itself null and void.
Click to expand...

Learn basic logic.

For example, If Jesus lacks any or all of the divine attributes of God then he isn't God. If Jesus does have the divine attributes of God then he isn't really a human, either, as the Bible plainly says. Thus, Jesus Christ in Trinitarian theology is an impossibility.
Click to expand...

Try learning both Hypostatic Union and basic logic.

Straw man. All you are doing is assuming Unitarianism that Jesus Christ has one nature only. You are not even close into speaking in accordance to the Hypostatic Union doctrine. Take the Unitarian blinders off and deal with the doctrine on it own merit and framework. And try your best not to misrepresent the doctrine. The doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ has two natures and not one nature only.

Jesus Christ lack knowledge accord to the human nature. True.
Jesus Christ lack knowledge accord to the Divine Nature. False.​

If Jesus lacks any or all of the divine attributes of God then he isn't God.
Click to expand...

The consequent is true.

The two statements flanking each other are constituents called antecedent and consequent. Now the word "if" is a hypothesis and the word "then" is the conclusion or "implied" means "always results in" which the antecedent is implying the consequent.

If Jesus does have the divine attributes of God then he isn't really a human
Click to expand...

The consequent is false.

A conditional 'if P is true then Q is also true' this mean that P→Q is false if and only if the antecedent P is true and the consequent Q is false; otherwise, it is true.

Can you name the Sentential Logic Statement that refuted your argument?
Can you write out a logical form for the above quote?
Can you write out a truth table or tree for the above quote?
Wait? "Dunning-Kruger" effect. You don't know basic logic. You assumed the Hypostatic Union is a contradiction when you don't even know what a contradiction is or a negation is. Or even know what the Hypostatic Union doctrine teaches. Just you speaking about things you have no knowledge in.
 
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