Mystery of the most holy trinity!

[Runningman]

Whatever that suppose to mean. But no worries, I'm convinced, that you are suffering from "Dunning-Kruger" effect. Last time I tried to have a Hypostatic Union discussion with you. You was struggling with the basics and failed miserably. One minute you know Greek better than Greek Scholars when you don't even know the Greek alphabet. The next day you are a master in logic and assumed that the Hypostatic Union is contradictory when you don't even know what the doctrine teaches. However, if by a miracle you can offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. For example: "Jesus Christ is both God and man" which a simple basic framework and negate a logical conjunction. Then I'll be gladly take the next step with you. Until then, you really have nothing of substance to offer but soapbox rhetoric rantings.



Learn basic logic.



Try learning both Hypostatic Union and basic logic.

Straw man. All you are doing is assuming Unitarianism that Jesus Christ has one nature only. You are not even close into speaking in accordance to the Hypostatic Union doctrine. Take the Unitarian blinders off and deal with the doctrine on it own merit and framework. And try your best not to misrepresent the doctrine. The doctrine teaches that Jesus Christ has two natures and not one nature only.

Jesus Christ lack knowledge accord to the human nature. True.​

Jesus Christ lack knowledge accord to the Divine Nature. False.​

The consequent is true.

The two statements flanking each other are constituents called antecedent and consequent. Now the word "if" is a hypothesis and the word "then" is the conclusion or "implied" means "always results in" which the antecedent is implying the consequent.



The consequent is false.

A conditional 'if P is true then Q is also true' this mean that P→Q is false if and only if the antecedent P is true and the consequent Q is false; otherwise, it is true.

Can you name the Sentential Logic Statement that refuted your argument?
Can you write out a logical form for the above quote?
Can you write out a truth table or tree for the above quote?
Wait? "Dunning-Kruger" effect. You don't know basic logic. You assumed the Hypostatic Union is a contradiction when you don't even know what a contradiction is or a negation is. Or even know what the Hypostatic Union doctrine teaches. Just you speaking about things you have no knowledge in.

Really amounts to to a non-reply since what you said doesn't actually address the things I said, but rather your claims that what I said is illogical. Well, buddy, what I just gave you is very plain and conventional logic.

Let's make this real simple for you.

The parts that make Jesus a human are all human traits. Yes? There is no disputing that Jesus absolutely does have a human nature. He's limited in knowledge, fallible, mortal, etc.

The parts that allegedly make Jesus God are not all of what God is. Correct? The part of Jesus that is allegedly God isn't omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, or eternal. Oh my, that's a huge problem isn't it?

Why doesn't Jesus know what the Father knows if he's omniscient?

Matthew 24​

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

​

Why couldn't Jesus escape their notice?

Mark 7​

24Jesus left that place and went to the region of Tyre. Not wanting anyone to know He was there, He entered a house, but was unable to escape their notice.​

Jesus isn't eternal either is he?

Hebrews 1​

5For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?​

​

Jesus is susceptible to sin temptation. God isn't.

Hebrews 4​

15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.​

​

James 1​

13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.​

​

And yet you continue on with this Roman Catholic narrative about a God man. Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em @Binyawmene .

 

[Binyawmene]

Really amounts to to a non-reply since what you said doesn't actually address the things I said, but rather your claims that what I said is illogical. Well, buddy, what I just gave you is very plain and conventional logic.

Let's make this real simple for you.

The parts that make Jesus a human are all human traits. Yes? There is no disputing that Jesus absolutely does have a human nature. He's limited in knowledge, fallible, mortal, etc.

The parts that allegedly make Jesus God are not all of what God is. Correct? The part of Jesus that is allegedly God isn't omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent, or eternal. Oh my, that's a huge problem isn't it?

Why doesn't Jesus know what the Father knows if he's omniscient?

Matthew 24​

36No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

​

Why couldn't Jesus escape their notice?

Mark 7​

24Jesus left that place and went to the region of Tyre. Not wanting anyone to know He was there, He entered a house, but was unable to escape their notice.​

Jesus isn't eternal either is he?

Hebrews 1​

5For to which of the angels did God ever say: “You are My Son; today I have become Your Father”?​

​

Jesus is susceptible to sin temptation. God isn't.

Hebrews 4​

15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.​

​

James 1​

13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.​

​

And yet you continue on with this Roman Catholic narrative about a God man. Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em @Binyawmene .

What a way to avoid and evade what I said in my post. Either way, you are still assuming and superimposing Unitarianism into the Hypostatic Union framework. I have addressed this to you many of times. Again, affirming Jesus Christ's manhood is supporting the Hypostatic Union doctrine. Jesus Christ is both God and man. Do you see the word "man" I've underlined for you? What you should do is offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. Do you even know how? If so, then we can have that discussion. But you don't know what the doctrine teaches. This is way over your head Runningman.

Logically, you cannot argue from the Hypostatic Union doctrinal position that "Jesus Christ is a Man." Because you would be affirming and adding support to what we already believe about Jesus Christ. Your common theme is demonstrated by pointing out Bible verses that Jesus Christ has claimed to be "a man." Or pointing out attributes of his "humanity" like being hungry, weeping, and lacking knowledge, etc. Then make bare assertions that he never claims to be "God." From your mindset its assumed that Jesus Christ being a man negates over him being God. Unfortunately, there would be no argument between both Hypostatic Unionists and Man-Only advocates in that particular regard. Even at the most basic level fundamentally. Since ultimately there would be a passable or just good enough acceptable agreement about Jesus Christ's humanity.​

 

[Runningman]

What a way to avoid and evade what I said in my post. Either way, you are still assuming and superimposing Unitarianism into the Hypostatic Union framework. I have addressed this to you many of times. Again, affirming Jesus Christ's manhood is supporting the Hypostatic Union doctrine. Jesus Christ is both God and man. Do you see the word "man" I've underlined for you? What you should do is offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. Do you even know how? If so, then we can have that discussion. But you don't know what the doctrine teaches. This is way over your head Runningman.

I exposed the fallacious reasoning and logic of the hypostatic union using post #518. After that you didn't address the content of that comment, but have since tried to change the subject to a lecture in reason and logic. You are continuing trying to change the subject to that. The subject is the hypostatic union. If there is anything I have learned on this forum it's not to let someone yank your chain around and drag you down every rabbit hole fast and far away from the truth.

Logically, you cannot argue from the Hypostatic Union doctrinal position that "Jesus Christ is a Man." Because you would be affirming and adding support to what we already believe about Jesus Christ. Your common theme is demonstrated by pointing out Bible verses that Jesus Christ has claimed to be "a man." Or pointing out attributes of his "humanity" like being hungry, weeping, and lacking knowledge, etc. Then make bare assertions that he never claims to be "God." From your mindset its assumed that Jesus Christ being a man negates over him being God. Unfortunately, there would be no argument between both Hypostatic Unionists and Man-Only advocates in that particular regard. Even at the most basic level fundamentally. Since ultimately there would be a passable or just good enough acceptable agreement about Jesus Christ's humanity.​

Looks like Jesus is not only doing everything a normal human does, but is doing the exact things others were doing who were anointed with power by God's holy Spirit. Even down to the authority Jesus received, not all of it was unique to himself. What he received from God isn't unique to himself. Jesus is not only a man, but a glorified man and Son of God. There are really very few exceptions to the things Jesus may have did that other children of God cannot do.

Is there even a scriptural foundation for Jesus being God in your hypostatic union doctrine?

 

[Mr GLee]

Logically, you cannot argue from the Hypostatic Union doctrinal position that "Jesus Christ is a Man." Because you would be affirming and adding support to what we already believe about Jesus Christ. Your common theme is demonstrated by pointing out Bible verses that Jesus Christ has claimed to be "a man." Or pointing out attributes of his "humanity" like being hungry, weeping, and lacking knowledge, etc. Then make bare assertions that he never claims to be "God." From your mindset its assumed that Jesus Christ being a man negates over him being God. Unfortunately, there would be no argument between both Hypostatic Unionists and Man-Only advocates in that particular regard. Even at the most basic level fundamentally. Since ultimately there would be a passable or just good enough acceptable agreement about Jesus Christ's humanity

It is the goal of Satan to deceive mankind that Eternal God is a Jewish man as King of kings, Lord of lords .

Two is the witness God has spoken, a duality, dynamic dual not trinity. three is a crowd.

The trinity was developed to include the queen of heaven after a earthy family. Father, Mother and Child a family or nation. They error in respect to that kind of worldly thinking .We are lovingly commanded to call no man on earth Holy Father as a daysman (Pope) as if God was a man . Christ is our unseen eternal Father.The one invisible head

Job 9:32-34King James Version For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. . . . . .(God and dying Mankind)

The Father unseen is eliminated using a trinity .In that way, all lying power is accredited to to a what some call Holy Father ,Holy See.,Bishop of Rome, Servant of the servants of God,Vicar of Christ, Primate of Italy, Prince of the Apostle, Sovereign of the Vatican City State,Supreme Pontiff of the Universal. To mention a few, again needed used to usurp the power of our unseen Holy Father..

God is not a Jewish man as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

 

[Binyawmene]

I exposed the fallacious reasoning and logic of the hypostatic union using post #518. After that you didn't address the content of that comment, but have since tried to change the subject to a lecture in reason and logic. You are continuing trying to change the subject to that. The subject is the hypostatic union. If there is anything I have learned on this forum it's not to let someone yank your chain around and drag you down every rabbit hole fast and far away from the truth.

You did no such thing. Reread post 520
What is the fallacy and what is the logical form of your straw man argument?

Looks like Jesus is not only doing everything a normal human does, but is doing the exact things others were doing who were anointed with power by God's holy Spirit. Even down to the authority Jesus received, not all of it was unique to himself. What he received from God isn't unique to himself. Jesus is not only a man, but a glorified man and Son of God. There are really very few exceptions to the things Jesus may have did that other children of God cannot do.

Is there even a scriptural foundation for Jesus being God in your hypostatic union doctrine?

Instead of you repeating Unitarian dogma of "Jesus is unique" or "Jesus is God's representative" etc. as if Jesus is some kind of demi-god. There is a Unitarian Forum where you can discuss that. This is the Trinity Forum where we discuss Trinity or Hypostatic Union topics. If you want to have a discussion with me. Then simply offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. But do it without straw man or misrepresentation of the doctrine.

In the meantime, you really are not saying much of anything.

 

[Fred]

Job 9:32-34King James Version For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. . . . . .(God and dying Mankind)

Written before the Incarnation.

 

[Binyawmene]

It is the goal of Satan to deceive mankind that Eternal God is a Jewish man as King of kings, Lord of lords .

Two is the witness God has spoken, a duality, dynamic dual not trinity. three is a crowd.

The trinity was developed to include the queen of heaven after a earthy family. Father, Mother and Child a family or nation. They error in respect to that kind of worldly thinking .We are lovingly commanded to call no man on earth Holy Father as a daysman (Pope) as if God was a man . Christ is our unseen eternal Father.The one invisible head

Job 9:32-34King James Version For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.
Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. . . . . .(God and dying Mankind)

The Father unseen is eliminated using a trinity .In that way, all lying power is accredited to to a what some call Holy Father ,Holy See.,Bishop of Rome, Servant of the servants of God,Vicar of Christ, Primate of Italy, Prince of the Apostle, Sovereign of the Vatican City State,Supreme Pontiff of the Universal. To mention a few, again needed used to usurp the power of our unseen Holy Father..

God is not a Jewish man as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

If I remember correctly, catholics don't believe God is a man, but also hold to the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. There is a difference between God "in-framework" and God "is-framework," in other words, the doctrine of the incarnation simply which means "the act of coming in the flesh" or "God in the flesh" (John 1:1, 14, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 7, 1 Timothy 3:16) and there is no Scriptures for the "is-framework" that "God is essentially flesh in nature" (or God is literally the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones) to imply that God is physical.

 

[Runningman]

You did no such thing. Reread post 520
What is the fallacy and what is the logical form of your straw man argument?

I read your replies because you are thoughtful and original, but I don't agree with it so I have nothing to add to it. I simply just continue with the discussion that I want to have.

Instead of you repeating Unitarian dogma of "Jesus is unique" or "Jesus is God's representative" etc. as if Jesus is some kind of demi-god. There is a Unitarian Forum where you can discuss that.

First, of all that isn't what I said nor did I even intend to suggest those things even though they are both true. I have no current interest in discussing it anyway so I'll just park here in the Trinity forum for now. Thanks anyway.

This is the Trinity Forum where we discuss Trinity or Hypostatic Union topics. If you want to have a discussion with me. Then simply offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. But do it without straw man or misrepresentation of the doctrine.

???

That's what I am trying to do with you here. I posted my refute of the hypostatic union a few comments back. Do you want to address it or not?

See comment #518

 

[Binyawmene]

I read your replies because you are thoughtful and original, but I don't agree with it so I have nothing to add to it. I simply just continue with the discussion that I want to have.


First, of all that isn't what I said nor did I even intend to suggest those things even though they are both true. I have no current interest in discussing it anyway so I'll just park here in the Trinity forum for now. Thanks anyway.


???

That's what I am trying to do with you here. I posted my refute of the hypostatic union a few comments back. Do you want to address it or not?

See comment #518

I already addressed the straw man. Nothing else I considered worth addressing. However, you are welcome to offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. But do it without straw man or misrepresentation of the doctrine.

 

[Mr GLee]

If I remember correctly, catholics don't believe God is a man, but also hold to the doctrine of the Hypostatic Union. There is a difference between God "in-framework" and God "is-framework," in other words, the doctrine of the incarnation simply which means "the act of coming in the flesh" or "God in the flesh" (John 1:1, 14, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 7, 1 Timothy 3:16) and there is no Scriptures for the "is-framework" that "God is essentially flesh in nature" (or God is literally the soft substance consisting of muscle and fat that is found between the skin and bones) to imply that God is physical.

Catholics framework is that God is a man like us (Daysman, Good Master. or what is called a Pope) as needed in order to establish a false earthy authority of dying mankind destroying the family of Faith. . the unseen things of God, coming from our unseen Holy Father .

When lovingly commanded to call no man on earth our Holy Father not seen . It destroyed their idea of a earthy government with a believers' under the authority of queen of heaven mother. They refused the exclave faith of Christ that coming hearing God. . . as it is written.(sola scriptura) in exchange for the oral traditions of dying mankind called fathers legion. Today 3500 and rising venerable fathers as patron saints

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven

Jesus refused to be called a Pope or daysman ( fleshly infallible teacher that umpires between man seen and God not seen with permission from both)

He would never blaspheme the Holy name of His eternal Father One kneeled down in veneration a government of dying mankind .Denying first will be last Gods unseen government of faith
there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mark 10:16-18King James Version16 , there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus the Son of man refused the office of Pope and gave glory to the unseen Holy Father, Almighty God

 

[Runningman]

I already addressed the straw man. Nothing else I considered worth addressing. However, you are welcome to offer up a logical analytical critique and assessment of the Hypostatic Union framework. But do it without straw man or misrepresentation of the doctrine.

No you’re wrong. That’s what the issue is. The “straw man” claim is just your copout to avoid the serious problem with the hypo statistic union and the inevitable loss of your god.

 

[Binyawmene]

Catholics framework is that God is a man like us (Daysman, Good Master. or what is called a Pope) as needed in order to establish a false earthy authority of dying mankind destroying the family of Faith. . the unseen things of God, coming from our unseen Holy Father .

When lovingly commanded to call no man on earth our Holy Father not seen . It destroyed their idea of a earthy government with a believers' under the authority of queen of heaven mother. They refused the exclave faith of Christ that coming hearing God. . . as it is written.(sola scriptura) in exchange for the oral traditions of dying mankind called fathers legion. Today 3500 and rising venerable fathers as patron saints

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven

Jesus refused to be called a Pope or daysman ( fleshly infallible teacher that umpires between man seen and God not seen with permission from both)

He would never blaspheme the Holy name of His eternal Father One kneeled down in veneration a government of dying mankind .Denying first will be last Gods unseen government of faith
there is none good but one, that is, God.

Mark 10:16-18King James Version16 , there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus the Son of man refused the office of Pope and gave glory to the unseen Holy Father, Almighty God

Maybe you should take that up with catholics.

 

[Binyawmene]

No you’re wrong. That’s what the issue is. The “straw man” claim is just your copout to avoid the serious problem with the hypo statistic union and the inevitable loss of your god.

Let me know when you have something of substance to offer.

 

[Mr GLee]

Maybe you should take that up with catholics.

I am not taking it up with anyone . just sharing idea .

 

[donadams]

None of those verses show Jesus as being God. You could pull a trinity out of the back side of donkey.

Then what is your understanding?
Only a man with God’s anointing?

 

[Mr GLee]

Then what is your understanding?
Only a man with God’s anointing?

Amen, Not only a man anointed by the promise Holy Spirit but miraculously. .

We are warned of the antichrists'(many) another teaching as false apostles, false prophets. The same that preach we do need dying mankind to teach us we do need a man(Pope kind or Daysman ) to teach rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit that he wolud teach contort and guide anointing us working in us.

1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Im hoping you will heed the warning No man can serve two good teaching masters as one Lord

Of dying mankind today . . . . . . .or of Eternal God?

 

[donadams]

Amen, Not only a man anointed by the promise Holy Spirit but miraculously. .

We are warned of the antichrists'(many) another teaching as false apostles, false prophets. The same that preach we do need dying mankind to teach us we do need a man(Pope kind or Daysman ) to teach rather than the promise of the Holy Spirit that he wolud teach contort and guide anointing us working in us.

1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Im hoping you will heed the warning No man can serve two good teaching masters as one Lord

Of dying mankind today . . . . . . .or of Eternal God?

According to scripture this is not possible!

Lk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

1 John 1:2
(For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is themystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in theSpirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Jesus Christ true God and true man!

 

[Binyawmene]

We are warned of the antichrists'(many) another teaching as false apostles, false prophets.

The Gnostics held to Docetist Christology.

Docetism is kind of a mixture of both ancient Greek Mythology concepts and Biblical Theophany/Christophany. The idea is rooted that all physical matter is evil and God is good. And God will not assume anything evil. So, all appearances or manifestations was non-physical. For instance, Docetism taught that Jesus Christ, being fully God and the physical fleshly body was only an illusion, that God, "to seem, to appeared in human form" or ""apparition and phantom".

And Christ's crucifixion was 'only seemed' to have a physical body (or "God eats, God slept, God suffered, and God died"), but the underlying of all this illusion was God who is incorporeal, spiritual, and cannot physically die because all physical matter is evil. So in reality, what they saw, heard, and touched was only phantasm.

This heresy came around 70 AD. They believe that Jesus Christ is fully God but denied he has a physical human nature but only an illusion. Even the letter of 1 John was probably written around 95 AD in Ephesus. John addressed the denial of the human nature in 1 John 4:1-3, but why didn't he address that he wasn't fully God? Because John believes Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.

Of dying mankind today . . . . . . .or of Eternal God?

Do you reject that the Son is the Eternal God? (John 8:58, Genesis 21:33, Micah 5:2, Psalms 90:2 4, Hebrews 1:10-12, 13:8, Revelations 1:8, 22:13, Matthew 28:20). The Eternal God has come in the flesh and dwell among us.

 

[Mr GLee]

According to scripture this is not possible!

What's not possible making the warning to no effect ,void of understanding? .. Do we need a man to teach us ?

1 John 1:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

 

[Mr GLee]

Docetism is kind of a mixture of both ancient Greek Mythology concepts and Biblical Theophany/Christophany. The idea is rooted that all physical matter is evil and God is good. And God will not assume anything evil. So, all appearances or manifestations was non-physical. For instance, Docetism taught that Jesus Christ, being fully God and the physical fleshly body was only an illusion, that God, "to seem, to appeared in human form" or ""apparition and phantom".

And Christ's crucifixion was 'only seemed' to have a physical body (or "God eats, God slept, God suffered, and God died"), but the underlying of all this illusion was God who is incorporeal, spiritual, and cannot physically die because all physical matter is evil. So in reality, what they saw, heard, and touched was only phantasm.

This heresy came around 70 AD. They believe that Jesus Christ is fully God but denied he has a physical human nature but only an illusion. Even the letter of 1 John was probably written around 95 AD in Ephesus. John addressed the denial of the human nature in 1 John 4:1-3, but why didn't he address that he wasn't fully God? Because John believes Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man.

Physical matter, the temporal seen has it purpose for comparing the temporal historical things seen with the eternal not seen . In that way we can rightly divide or interpret the parables and unlock the mysteries of faith (the unseen things of God ) hiding the gospel from unbelievers.

In that way parables teach us how to walk or understand after the unseen eternal things of God.

A valuable tool . . . . . .

. 2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

They must be mixed