Man's responsibility.

[justbyfaith]

@Arial, in response to something you said in another thread (this is a repeat post brought to the forefront):

It is my choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without exception; just like it is your choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without distinction.

Ultimately this is the choice between believing in man's responsibility or else God's culpability in man's condemnation.

If God chooses those who are saved, then by default He chooses whom He will not save; and in choosing them unto condemnation (ultimately not giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will be saved), He removes the responsibility of the sinner to make a decision to receive Christ since that is not the choice of the sinner but rather this is based on God's unconditional (arbitrary) decision.

If man has a choice in the matter of being saved when he is drawn; and also if every man is drawn; then every man is ultimately responsible for the decision that he will make.

This is perhaps one of the reasons why Calvinism has its appeal to so many; it removes man's responsibility as concerning his decision to receive or reject Christ (impaho).

However, ultimately, God does not send anyone to hell: rather, we send ourselves there when we reject God's offer of free provision to save us in the Cross of Christ.

But if it is ultimately God's decision, then man is not responsible for his rejection of Christ; for God has predetermined that the man will reject Christ (by default, in not choosing him).

I would declare to you that ultimately, man is responsible for his own decision and that therefore God's judgment of him is just and fair.

But if God chose certain men out for condemnation (by default), then His condemnation of them is not just and fair;

For God would have created them specifically in order to stoke the fires of hell.

Why then create them with the ability to feel the pain of that unless he is some sort of cosmic sadist?

I would ask you, what makes you so confident that you are of the elect?

Do you not realize that God may have chosen you to stoke the fires of hell if that theology is true?

How do you know that you will persevere to the end?

Because if you don't, according to most Calvinists that I have read, you were never saved in the first place.

So, how is that conducive to the understanding that anyone is saved in the present moment?

One cannot know that he was saved until he reaches the end of his life and finds that he persevered to the end.

Yet, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 and 1 John 5:13 and Romans 8:16 would tell us a different story.

 

[justbyfaith]

But I realize that I am simply preaching to you and that the Holy Spirit is going to have to testify to you that what I am saying is true, if you are going to be able to receive it.

Because you decidedly have a different point of view.

 

[Red Baker]

@Arial, in response to something you said in another thread (this is a repeat post brought to the forefront):

It is my choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without exception; just like it is your choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without distinction.

Ultimately this is the choice between believing in man's responsibility or else God's culpability in man's condemnation.

If God chooses those who are saved, then by default He chooses whom He will not save; and in choosing them unto condemnation (ultimately not giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will be saved), He removes the responsibility of the sinner to make a decision to receive Christ since that is not the choice of the sinner but rather this is based on God's unconditional (arbitrary) decision.

If man has a choice in the matter of being saved when he is drawn; and also if every man is drawn; then every man is ultimately responsible for the decision that he will make.

This is perhaps one of the reasons why Calvinism has its appeal to so many; it removes man's responsibility as concerning his decision to receive or reject Christ (impaho).

However, ultimately, God does not send anyone to hell: rather, we send ourselves there when we reject God's offer of free provision to save us in the Cross of Christ.

But if it is ultimately God's decision, then man is not responsible for his rejection of Christ; for God has predetermined that the man will reject Christ (by default, in not choosing him).

I would declare to you that ultimately, man is responsible for his own decision and that therefore God's judgment of him is just and fair.

But if God chose certain men out for condemnation (by default), then His condemnation of them is not just and fair;

For God would have created them specifically in order to stoke the fires of hell.

Why then create them with the ability to feel the pain of that unless he is some sort of cosmic sadist?

I would ask you, what makes you so confident that you are of the elect?

Do you not realize that God may have chosen you to stoke the fires of hell if that theology is true?

How do you know that you will persevere to the end?

Because if you don't, according to most Calvinists that I have read, you were never saved in the first place.

So, how is that conducive to the understanding that anyone is saved in the present moment?

One cannot know that he was saved until he reaches the end of his life and finds that he persevered to the end.

Yet, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 and 1 John 5:13 and Romans 8:16 would tell us a different story.

I'll let Arial answer first, then I want to address this post as soon as he first has the opportunity to respond to your post to him

But I realize that I am simply preaching to you and that the Holy Spirit is going to have to testify to you that what I am saying is true, if you are going to be able to receive it.

Because you decidedly have a different point of view.

This is also just as true for him toward you. Btw, his understanding is spot on!

It is my choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without exception; just like it is your choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without distinction.

Amen

.

 

[Arial]

I'll let Arial answer first, then I want to address this post as soon as he first has the opportunity to respond to your post to him

I don't know that I will address it as I have already addressed every point in depth in at least three different threads he started to discuss the same things. He heard none of it then, he won't the next time. At least not from me. Not even an exegesis of the scriptures being used budged the intent to trust in choice instead of Christ. But maybe he will hear you. Or maybe I will repost what I said about the scriptures before and link to what others have said.

 

[Arial]

It is my choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without exception; just like it is your choice to believe that John 12:32 refers to all men without distinction.

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”



61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It is definitive. Not motivation. Only certain ones believe and Jesus did not say it is those who choose to believe, but it is though to whom it is granted by the Father.

John 12:27-33


27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die (See also vv 34-36

If John 6 is true, John 12:32 cannot mean that all people without exception will at some point be drawn to Him. Jesus said those who are drawn to Him He will raise up at the last day and give eternal life. That is why it is not proper Bible study to isolate scriptures from their context or remove them from the whole counsel of God. Doing so destroys the consistency within what comes from the very mouth of God.

Since we do know what happened after Christ was lifted up through the great commission and what happened in the NT and is still happening, all people in John 12 means all without distinction. You can try and make that not so, but you will be unable to do so.

@Red Baker (I decided to address that one scripture.)

 

[CrowCross]

If God chooses those who are saved, then by default He chooses whom He will not save;

By default...everyman receives the justice they deserve. From those who deserve justice God grants mercy on some.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

 

[makesends]

If God chooses those who are saved, then by default He chooses whom He will not save; and in choosing them unto condemnation (ultimately not giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will be saved), He removes the responsibility of the sinner to make a decision to receive Christ since that is not the choice of the sinner but rather this is based on God's unconditional (arbitrary) decision.

I find it curious you continue with this term "arbitrary". It seems to me intellectually dishonest to do so. You have been told multiple time that the Calvinist calls it "unconditional" only in that God's decision is not based on any condition in that person he chooses. That is not arbitrary at all. God is very specific in whom God chooses, and creates, for God's own particular purposes. Nothing random there.

If man has a choice in the matter of being saved when he is drawn; and also if every man is drawn; then every man is ultimately responsible for the decision that he will make.

This is perhaps one of the reasons why Calvinism has its appeal to so many; it removes man's responsibility as concerning his decision to receive or reject Christ (impaho).

Why should any man be drawn, for God to be fair and just? But God is merciful to whom he chooses to show mercy, and yes, that is Scriptural.

However, ultimately, God does not send anyone to hell: rather, we send ourselves there when we reject God's offer of free provision to save us in the Cross of Christ.

John 3:18 says one is already condemned because he has not believed. Not because he has rejected God's offer.

Ultimately, God says, "Depart from me". How is that not sending them to Hell?

But if it is ultimately God's decision, then man is not responsible for his rejection of Christ; for God has predetermined that the man will reject Christ (by default, in not choosing him).

I would declare to you that ultimately, man is responsible for his own decision and that therefore God's judgment of him is just and fair.

But if God chose certain men out for condemnation (by default), then His condemnation of them is not just and fair;

For God would have created them specifically in order to stoke the fires of hell.

Why then create them with the ability to feel the pain of that unless he is some sort of cosmic sadist?

You have also been told that God's primary reason for creating them is not that they should burn in hell, but that his glory, his justice and purity, are shown to the objects of his mercy, in the condemnation of the reprobate. The reason for creating the reprobate is, among other uses for them, that they serve as instrumental in the sanctification of those God has chosen.

I would ask you, what makes you so confident that you are of the elect?

Do you not realize that God may have chosen you to stoke the fires of hell if that theology is true?

How do you know that you will persevere to the end?

Because if you don't, according to most Calvinists that I have read, you were never saved in the first place.

So, how is that conducive to the understanding that anyone is saved in the present moment?

One cannot know that he was saved until he reaches the end of his life and finds that he persevered to the end.

Not so. His Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the children of God.

Yet, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 and 1 John 5:13 and Romans 8:16 would tell us a different story.

Your premise is off. The Calvinist can know. And these verses tell us how they can know.

However, the non-elect cannot receive Christ because God didn't choose him.

How then can he justly be held accountable for not receiving Christ?

God is ultimately responsible for his rejection of Christ (the root cause of his rejection of Christ is that he is of the non-elect (because God didn't choose him)).

It never seems to occur to the self-determinist, that God has the absolute right to make anything and anyone for whatever purposes he chooses to make them for. They don't have a problem with God creating a grain of sand to be here today and gone tomorrow. Why should they assume worth to anyone in and of oneself? Are we so self-aware that we therefore merit special consideration? NONE of that is ours but by God's grace. Does our aliveness, our mode of existence, come anywhere near God's? When God removes his virtue and grace from us, what are we?

 

[Arial]

When God removes his virtue and grace from us, what are we?

And when God removes our physical life from us what are we? In Him we live, and move, and have our being. That means that in Him we live, and move, and have our being. There is nothing, absolutely nothing autonomous about us. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, that gives us freedom and makes us free indeed, but trust in Christ and His work for us. Then and only then, and that not of ourselves, are we free. And that does not mean we are free of God or responsibility to Him, but we are free from the chains that bound us. We are free in His righteousness, and HIs substitution, of condemnation, and are bound for glory. We have been set free of this kingdom of darkness that is our prison cell, and brought into the kingdom of the Son He loves.

 

[justbyfaith]

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— 46 not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”



61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, “Do you take offense at this? 62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) 65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

It is definitive. Not motivation. Only certain ones believe and Jesus did not say it is those who choose to believe, but it is though to whom it is granted by the Father.

John 12:27-33


27 “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? But for this purpose I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.” Then a voice came from heaven: “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.” 29 The crowd that stood there and heard it said that it had thundered. Others said, “An angel has spoken to him.” 30 Jesus answered, “This voice has come for your sake, not mine. 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die (See also vv 34-36

If John 6 is true, John 12:32 cannot mean that all people without exception will at some point be drawn to Him. Jesus said those who are drawn to Him He will raise up at the last day and give eternal life. That is why it is not proper Bible study to isolate scriptures from their context or remove them from the whole counsel of God. Doing so destroys the consistency within what comes from the very mouth of God.

Since we do know what happened after Christ was lifted up through the great commission and what happened in the NT and is still happening, all people in John 12 means all without distinction. You can try and make that not so, but you will be unable to do so.

@Red Baker (I decided to address that one scripture.)

Everybody has eternal life...somewhere.

There is a resurrection unto damnation (John 5:29, Daniel 12:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

By default...everyman receives the justice they deserve. From those who deserve justice God grants mercy on some.

Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

And on whom will he have mercy, but on those who do what it takes to receive salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39?

God in the verse you have quoted above, defends his decision to justify the ungodly person (Romans 4:5).

 

[justbyfaith]

I find it curious you continue with this term "arbitrary". It seems to me intellectually dishonest to do so. You have been told multiple time that the Calvinist calls it "unconditional" only in that God's decision is not based on any condition in that person he chooses. That is not arbitrary at all. God is very specific in whom God chooses, and creates, for God's own particular purposes. Nothing random there.

Okay...if it is not random, then on what basis does God choose some and then condemn others?

If the Calvinist had an answer to this question, he would also have an answer to the question, "What must I do to be saved?"

 

[justbyfaith]

John 3:18 says one is already condemned because he has not believed. Not because he has rejected God's offer.

Yet, all are drawn to Christ at some point in their lives. So, if they continue in unbelief after being drawn, it is because they have rejected God's offer.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ultimately, God says, "Depart from me". How is that not sending them to Hell?

Do they not choose their own fate by rejecting the Lordship of Jesus Christ?

 

[justbyfaith]

Your premise is off. The Calvinist can know. And these verses tell us how they can know.

Yet, there are those, who believe that His Spirit bears witness with their spirit that they are children of God, who ultimately don't persevere to the end.

Were not these, never saved in the first place?

Did God give them a false assurance that they were saved?

 

[justbyfaith]

That means that in Him we live, and move, and have our being.

Just like all means "all".

 

[Arial]

Ultimately this is the choice between believing in man's responsibility or else God's culpability in man's condemnation.

If God chooses those who are saved, then by default He chooses whom He will not save; and in choosing them unto condemnation (ultimately not giving them a choice in the matter of whether or not they will be saved), He removes the responsibility of the sinner to make a decision to receive Christ since that is not the choice of the sinner but rather this is based on God's unconditional (arbitrary) decision.

The choice is not between believing in man's responsibility or God's culpability in man's condemnation. That is a false dichotomy. What is so false about it is that it makes the actions of man determine who God is. God is the Creator. We are the creature. We of all that creation in Gen. are created by Him in His image and likeness. Animals do not have any responsibility to their Creator, they simply do what God created them to do. Vegetation has no responsibility to their Creator they simply do what God created them to do. And all this He sustains, and His faithfulness reaches to the heavens and His glory is over all the earth.

Man has a responsibility to God, to worship Him, to obey Him, to honor Him, to submit to Him, and to reflect His image of righteousness. And man does not have a responsibility to choose Christ. Man has a responsibility to trust in Christ and it is the only way he can be reconciled to God, and it is the only way man can be found to be trusting God. It has nothing to do with choice but only to do with belief.

And fallen man is incapable of trusting in Christ or trusting in God, that is how fallen he became. It was not a mistake that Adam made. It is not mistakes we make when we sin. It is high treason against a holy God who created us. It is unimaginable grace and mercy that any are saved for He has no obligation to do so. And He did not send His Son as Savior for our sake, but for the Son's sake, and for His glory, not ours. He gives people to the Son as an inheritance and reward for the suffering He endured at the hands of the wicked. (Eph 1:3-6,15-21; John 17)

It takes the power and will of God to save. It takes His power and His will to change a hard heart into a heart that is moldable and pliable in His hands. Man cannot choose to do this and then do it. And no man can tell God that He must be a certain way and if He is not that way then He is unjust and He is culpable for sending them to hell and they have no responsibility for their going to hell. That is ABSURD! He is the Potter. We are the clay. He can do as He pleases with the clay and no one can stay His hand. From the very mouth of God: "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

And arbitrary is not a synonym of the biblical concept of unconditional. As you have had illustrated to you over and over again, everytime you use them as synonyms.

 

[CrowCross]

And on whom will he have mercy, but on those who do what it takes to receive salvation in Hosea 14:2, Romans 10:9-13, and Acts 2:38-39?

God in the verse you have quoted above, defends his decision to justify the ungodly person (Romans 4:5).

Every human is ungodly.

Why God saves one and not another...is Gods decision and we are not told what it is based upon.

 

[Arial]

This is perhaps one of the reasons why Calvinism has its appeal to so many; it removes man's responsibility as concerning his decision to receive or reject Christ (impaho).

Once again you have no idea what you are talking about. The doctrines in Calvinism cause a person to press into their responsibilities to God as they plead daily for grace in sanctification, and look to the word seeking His face. "Sanctify them with truth," Jesus prayed. "Your word is truth."

However, ultimately, God does not send anyone to hell: rather, we send ourselves there when we reject God's offer of free provision to save us in the Cross of Christ.

God isn't making an offer. You have no scripture to prove such a thing, only scriptures you make say such a thing. Who is God? Who are we?
When you can adequately answer those questions and take those things into the scriptures you misuse, you will find that God does not make offers, He makes demands and commands. And when it comes to salvation He demands that we believe and trust in the person and work of Christ. He does not ask us if we want to or not. He knows, far better than any of us can articulate, that we cannot and will not, unless He FIRST sets us free of the chains that bind us. That is when we do believe. He does not offer us the key that unlocks that chain and say take it or leave it. He unlocks the chain.

But if God chose certain men out for condemnation (by default), then His condemnation of them is not just and fair;

It isn't fair, but it is unequal. How is it not just? Are you now telling God what His justice is? They are justly condemned because Christ has not paid sins justice for them. How does that become God's injustice if He only chooses who He chooses to choose?

I would declare to you that ultimately, man is responsible for his own decision and that therefore God's judgment of him is just and fair.

How very Calvinistic of you. The difference is, as we all know, you somehow think that it is our responsibility to choose, when in fact it is our responsibility to BELIEVE.

For God would have created them specifically in order to stoke the fires of hell.

Why then create them with the ability to feel the pain of that unless he is some sort of cosmic sadist?

Or to show His glory and His power. Why don't you let God define Himself instead of defining Him to and for Him? And accusing Him of being the most horrible of things if He does not fit the image of Him you create by ignoring what He says about who He is. Why do you think, for instance, we see Him doing and commanding the wars and killings, and His own striking of people dead on the spot, in the OT, as His plan of redemption progresses toward Christ? Do you think He became a different God after Christ?

I would ask you, what makes you so confident that you are of the elect?

Because I trust God. He tells us in His word who Jesus is and what, why, He did what He did, and how He did it. And He says that if we believe those things we are saved unto eternal life. And I do believe those things, and not just with my mind, for that is the first place they must be apprehended, but in my heart. Therefore I am of those given to Christ.

Do you not realize that God may have chosen you to stoke the fires of hell if that theology is true?

If He had, I would not believe and furthermore would not even consider it an issue. I would be happy as a lark being entirely independent of Him

How do you know that you will persevere to the end?

I trust Him. He says He will keep me. He says that He will lose none who the Father gives Him. He says He is the author of my faith and the finisher of my faith. He says I will stand because He is able to make me stand. (All those things taken directly from His word.) And I trust Him. I do not trust myself. I do not trust a choice I made. I trust Him.

So, how is that conducive to the understanding that anyone is saved in the present moment?

He says I am so I believe Him.

One cannot know that he was saved until he reaches the end of his life and finds that he persevered to the end.

He promises for those who believe in the person and work of Jesus alone for salvation, that they will inherit the kingdom, that He will raise them up to eternal life with God on the last day, that they are saved now and will receive the promises of the fulness of their redemption. I believe Him. I trust Him.

Yet, 1 Thessalonians 1:5 and 1 John 5:13 and Romans 8:16 would tell us a different story.

1 Thess 1:2-5



2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly[a] mentioning you in our prayers, 3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. 4 For we know, brothers[b] loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

How does that tell a different story?
1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.

How does that tell a different story?
Romans 8:1616 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

How does that tell a different story?

 

[CrowCross]

Just like all means "all".

"All" means all of what?

Mark 1:5 uses the word "all"....And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

Does this mean everyone from Judea and Jerusalem were baptized?

 

[Arial]

Just like all means "all".

There is absolutely no connection between the above and In Him we live and move and have our being. Don't simply make non sequitur quips. Address the post or leave it alone. It is quarreling for the sake of quarreling and scripture tells us that is a no, no. 2 Tim 2:24-25a.