Kirk Cameron Rejects Eternal Conscious Torment, Embraces Conditional Immortality

[makesends]

Josheb said:
Got a question for you @JesusFan. As you envision the new, restored, heavens and earth, does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? How about death? In the new and restored heavens and earth, does death exist? It's a simply yes or no inquiry. I'm not interested in digression or overwrought explanations that don't actually answer the question asked.


Does sin and death exist in the new heavens and earth?

makesends said:
Do you line up the new heavens and earth with 'all there is' at that point. Does 'all reality' = 'new heavens and earth'?

Not sure I understand the question because there has always been an existence prior to the creating of creation. The heavens and the earth (whether old or new) is/are created. The reality of that creation is, likewise, created. God could create an infinite number of creations, and each creation might have its own reality that is real, real reality. Because by definition each would have its own limits/limitations, each would be different from uncreated reality. No creation is God. Therefore, no "all reality" in/of any creation equals all reality.

Therefore, the word "all" needs to be removed from the inquiry unless it is qualified to apply only to the creation in which that reality exists. Then the question becomes circular and, therefore, nonsensical. Does the new creation "line up" with all that exists in the new creation? Yes. The ambiguous "line up" must also be defined. Does the new creation's reality all there is of that creation's reality. Yes, that is the necessity of that created creation. As to my inquiry about the existence of sin and death in the new heavens and earth, the new creation, all questions about reality must pertain to that inquiry because anything outside of the inquiry is off topic. Annihilation (if that is what occurs) is an intra-creation condition, not an extra-creation one. Any and all reality existing outside the created creation is irrelevant.

A simple, "no", would have sufficed, lol.

Perhaps I was projecting, but your question to @JesusFan (who holds to ECT, I think) seemed to assume something along the lines of 'once annihilation sets in, there is only the one reality of new heavens and new earth, (which necessarily includes no death, sin or hell)', or, as seemingly posed to JF, "How can there be ECT if at that point (post resurrection) the only reality is the new heavens and new earth?"

 

[JesusFan]

Josheb said:
Got a question for you @JesusFan. As you envision the new, restored, heavens and earth, does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? How about death? In the new and restored heavens and earth, does death exist? It's a simply yes or no inquiry. I'm not interested in digression or overwrought explanations that don't actually answer the question asked.


Does sin and death exist in the new heavens and earth?

makesends said:
Do you line up the new heavens and earth with 'all there is' at that point. Does 'all reality' = 'new heavens and earth'?

A simple, "no", would have sufficed, lol.

Perhaps I was projecting, but your question to @JesusFan (who holds to ECT, I think) seemed to assume something along the lines of 'once annihilation sets in, there is only the one reality of new heavens and new earth, (which necessarily includes no death, sin or hell)', or, as seemingly posed to JF, "How can there be ECT if at that point (post resurrection) the only reality is the new heavens and new earth?"

If you mean here the Eternal State, there will be no more sin, death, but shall be forever more saved and lost who had been physically resurrected

 

[JesusFan]

Depending on what you mean, by "just ceased to exist", I disagree. In the annihilationist thinking, they don't "just cease to have existed". And there's the difference. If, at the end of their punishment/judgement, they are eliminated, it doesn't imply that they did not live at some point.

If they are eliminated and there is a cessation of torment because there is no longer anybody to receive that retribution and punishment, it could have been infinite punishment (fitting the infinite crime against infinite God) in some other way than unending time passage.

Except Jesus stated that they will be varying levels of punishment in hell, and do not see if all get smoked out as fulfilling that

 

[JesusFan]

Got a question for you @JesusFan. As you envision the new, restored, heavens and earth, does sin exist in the new heavens and earth? How about death? In the new and restored heavens and earth, does death exist? It's a simply yes or no inquiry. I'm not interested in digression or overwrought explanations that don't actually answer the question asked.


Does sin and death exist in the new heavens and earth?

Not in the ternal state, but there shall remain physically resurrected saved and lost

 

[JesusFan]

That is incorrect.

Aside from the fallacious appeal to purity, even humans regularly execute "true" judgment by causing the perpetrators of certain crime to cease to exist. It's called capital punishment. God's a big fan of it.

All the concerns you've broached have been addressed in this thread (and not just by me). Have you read through the thread?

Not all criminals though het the capital penalty applied towards them, and if all got crease to exist, would not be based upon varying degrees of punishment, and God seems to see living forever even in eternal lake preferable to just ceasing to n on exist

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Depending on what you mean, by "just ceased to exist", I disagree. In the annihilationist thinking, they don't "just cease to have existed". And there's the difference. If, at the end of their punishment/judgement, they are eliminated, it doesn't imply that they did not live at some point.

If they are eliminated and there is a cessation of torment because there is no longer anybody to receive that retribution and punishment, it could have been infinite punishment (fitting the infinite crime against infinite God) in some other way than unending time passage.

Except Jesus stated that they will be varying levels of punishment in hell, and do not see if all get smoked out as fulfilling that

You're missing my point. I'm saying that the intensity of their punishment would be equivalent to 'unending', but in a non-temporal situation, and would also be equivalent to an annihilation which also is time-dependent, as is ECT. No need for any "all gets smoked out" notion.

It's a little analogical to the "when is the elect justified?" question that occupied a couple threads, not long ago. One person was trapped in the notion of the TIME at which it happens, instead of the facts of what happens, and how it happens. —We KNOW the facts, here: Rebellion/disobedience/enmity against God will be paid precisely and thoroughly by the offender. But our concepts and terminology concerning the facts mislead us, I think, into thinking we understand what is done there. I think that we mostly agree that the post-resurrection state of the Redeemed is not quite temporal, in the way we currently perceive "temporal". So why should the torments of hell be temporally discerned?

To me, it is quite likely that the question is not how long it takes, nor whether it ends, but, rather, "Who are these people, really, to whom God has not shown saving mercy? What does God do to them, and why? What is the distance between what happens to them according to what they deserve, and what happens to those who are saved by the Grace of God? What is the distance between the ontology of the reprobate, and the ontology of the redeemed?" Other questions I also think are relevant: "What, really, IS death, and destruction, and consuming, and torment, and the other biblical terms and adjectives appropriate to that 'realm'?

 

[makesends]

Not all criminals though het the capital penalty applied towards them, and if all got crease to exist, would not be based upon varying degrees of punishment, and God seems to see living forever even in eternal lake preferable to just ceasing to n on exist

Two thoughts jump out at me here: The wages of sin is death and, Annihilationism does not propose an even field, but only an ending of existence at some point. Dying, and then consummated death.

 

[Josheb]

No. There is no sin IN the new heavens and earth. There is no death IN the new heaven and earth.

Correct. Although @JesusFan that question because I wanted @JesusFan to think through his position I'm glad you've provided some consensus.

Now, OUTSIDE OF the new heaven and earth ... that is another question.

Think that through.

What is "outside" of the new heavens and earth?

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Revelation 21:1,5
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.... And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.”

What exists outside the heavens and the earth? God. God exists outside the heavens and the earth. Is their sin in God? No. Therefore, yes, "Is there sin outside of the new heavens and the new earth?" is a different question but the answer is the same: No there is no sin outside of the new heavens and earth. That question is also off topic because this question is concerned with the final disposition of the unrepentant, Christ-denying sinner, not what's outside creation (new or old).

Thanks for weighing in. Now let's see what @JesusFan has to say about the existence of sin and death in the new heavens and earth.


@JesusFan, Is there sin and death in the new heavens and earth?

 

[Josheb]

Not in the ternal state, but there shall remain physically resurrected saved and lost

Then you have, again, contradicted your own posts and scripture.

It's not rational, it's not consistent, to say there is a huge, ginormous plethora of sinner's writhing around in a fiery lake, a large population in hell AND also say there is no sin or death in the new creation. Hell would be part of the newly created heavens and earth. You and I walking around in the new heavens and earth would always be able to say to one another, "Hey, let's go over to the fiery lake and take a look at the eternally burning sinners." Anyone who lived there could go see the place God has purportedly preserved for eternally and torturously dying sinners.

There'd be a place in the new heavens and earth where sin was relegated.

That cannot be the case if there is no sin in the eternal state.

Such an interpretation of scripture would not be consistent with the whole of scripture. In Revelation 20 the lake of fire is so destructive it kills everything thrown into it. The fiery lake is so deadly it destroys even death. The alternative is that the fiery lake does not actually destroy anything and death and Satan and all the sinners tossed therein don't actually die and there's not much that has changed in the new creation. We'd still have sin, sinners, Satan, demons, and death living in the new creation. That would mean 1 Corinthians 15:26 is not true.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Death is not abolished if death is not literally destroyed to the point of non-existence in the fiery lake.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Is death dead, or not? Is death abolished, or not? Is death destroyed, or not? If the answer is "No," then death still exists in the new creation. It may be localized to the fiery lake, but it's still existing in the new heavens and earth. Notice also that Hases is thrown into the fiery lake. Now go back to what you previously posted about the definition of Hell/Hades. ALL of that is thrown into the fiery lake! Post 115 states, "....both Heaven and Hell are eternal in duration, as we ALL deserve hell, its by sheer grace any of us get to heaven." Well, according to Rev. 20, hell is thrown into the fiery lake. Post 129 states, "I think the severe language was describing a place far worse then a literal burning of the flesh." That is 100% correct. The fiery lake is much worse than hell/hades. The fiery lake is so worse that hell and death are thrown into it, along with all the unrepentant sinners. It's a fire that burns hell and death. It's so violent that even death is destroyed.

If there is a place to which inhabitants of the new creation can visit to watch the sinners writhe in torment, then there is sin in the new heavens. The new heavens and earth are not sinless. Death is not abolished; it's simply held in a specific spot and controlled. There's a spot in the new creation where anyone can go watch sin, sinners, and death suffer. It's a black ink spot on an otherwise pristinely shining white creation and it's not going anywhere because, according to ECT, God cannot just do away with the existence of sinners without compromising His character.

His character is Genesis 1:1, not Genesis 3:7 or Romans5:12. What God creates is sinless. He creates a new creation. The old will have passed away...... except for that one spot where we can all go to watch the sinners writhe. Kinda like a zoo .


Work out these inconsistencies and you'll see annihilationism is the most consistent with whole scripture.

 

[Josheb]

Not all criminals though het the capital penalty applied towards them....

The wages of sin is death. The capital penalty applies to every sinner. It is only by grace some are saved.

 

[Hobie]

The wages of sin is death. The capital penalty applies to every sinner. It is only by grace some are saved.

Adventist were given in SOP a startling percentage that has stayed with me throughout my life, and its not one to brag about.... EllenWhite.Org Website - Not One in Twenty?

 

[JesusFan]

The wages of sin is death. The capital penalty applies to every sinner. It is only by grace some are saved.

All receive the final state, but not all are receiving same exact punishment

 

[JesusFan]

Then you have, again, contradicted your own posts and scripture.

It's not rational, it's not consistent, to say there is a huge, ginormous plethora of sinner's writhing around in a fiery lake, a large population in hell AND also say there is no sin or death in the new creation. Hell would be part of the newly created heavens and earth. You and I walking around in the new heavens and earth would always be able to say to one another, "Hey, let's go over to the fiery lake and take a look at the eternally burning sinners." Anyone who lived there could go see the place God has purportedly preserved for eternally and torturously dying sinners.

There'd be a place in the new heavens and earth where sin was relegated.

That cannot be the case if there is no sin in the eternal state.

Such an interpretation of scripture would not be consistent with the whole of scripture. In Revelation 20 the lake of fire is so destructive it kills everything thrown into it. The fiery lake is so deadly it destroys even death. The alternative is that the fiery lake does not actually destroy anything and death and Satan and all the sinners tossed therein don't actually die and there's not much that has changed in the new creation. We'd still have sin, sinners, Satan, demons, and death living in the new creation. That would mean 1 Corinthians 15:26 is not true.

1 Corinthians 15:26
The last enemy that will be abolished is death.

Death is not abolished if death is not literally destroyed to the point of non-existence in the fiery lake.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Is death dead, or not? Is death abolished, or not? Is death destroyed, or not? If the answer is "No," then death still exists in the new creation. It may be localized to the fiery lake, but it's still existing in the new heavens and earth. Notice also that Hases is thrown into the fiery lake. Now go back to what you previously posted about the definition of Hell/Hades. ALL of that is thrown into the fiery lake! Post 115 states, "....both Heaven and Hell are eternal in duration, as we ALL deserve hell, its by sheer grace any of us get to heaven." Well, according to Rev. 20, hell is thrown into the fiery lake. Post 129 states, "I think the severe language was describing a place far worse then a literal burning of the flesh." That is 100% correct. The fiery lake is much worse than hell/hades. The fiery lake is so worse that hell and death are thrown into it, along with all the unrepentant sinners. It's a fire that burns hell and death. It's so violent that even death is destroyed.

If there is a place to which inhabitants of the new creation can visit to watch the sinners writhe in torment, then there is sin in the new heavens. The new heavens and earth are not sinless. Death is not abolished; it's simply held in a specific spot and controlled. There's a spot in the new creation where anyone can go watch sin, sinners, and death suffer. It's a black ink spot on an otherwise pristinely shining white creation and it's not going anywhere because, according to ECT, God cannot just do away with the existence of sinners without compromising His character.

His character is Genesis 1:1, not Genesis 3:7 or Romans5:12. What God creates is sinless. He creates a new creation. The old will have passed away...... except for that one spot where we can all go to watch the sinners writhe. Kinda like a zoo .


Work out these inconsistencies and you'll see annihilationism is the most consistent with whole scripture.

except Jesus, and he should knew, taught the Hell will be an eternal state for the lost
And the worst part of that is not burning up, being in flames, but in eternal darkness, shut off from presence and goodness of God for all etrnity

 

[JesusFan]

Two thoughts jump out at me here: The wages of sin is death and, Annihilationism does not propose an even field, but only an ending of existence at some point. Dying, and then consummated death.

Physical and spiritual death, yet also is eternal existing, apart form Presense and person of God, as in the lost shall be stuck in state of ruin, but still alive

 

[atpollard]

Think that through.

What is "outside" of the new heavens and earth?

You specifically DIDN'T want an expanded answer to your question.

I have thought it through. It posits the existence of a place created by God that is specifically AWAY from him ... exile from His presence (in Heaven or on Earth). If such a place existed, it would be a place devoid of all the positive attributes that come from God [love, peace, joy, hope, goodness, kindness, mercy ...]. If we had to invent a word to describe such a place, we might borrow the English word "Hell" as a placeholder. [shrug]

 

[Josheb]

All receive the final state, but not all are receiving same exact punishment

The salient points is that capital punishment is asserted by God Himself and you've got multiple inconsistencies in your posts.

Post 145 is incorrect. When it comes to sin, ALL criminals receive the death penalty. All have sinned and the penalty is death.

Not all criminals though get the capital penalty applied towards them

Yes, they do.

, and if all got [cease] to exist, would not be based upon varying degrees of punishment,

That is correct. The penalty for sin is universal and there are not caveats.

...and God seems to see living forever even in eternal lake preferable to just ceasing to n on exist

Got scripture for that?

• The fact of scripture is that death is the punishment for sin.
• The fact of scripture is there are no exceptions outside the grace of God meted out to those, who through faith in his resurrected Son, receive salvation instead of the death sentence.
• The fact of scripture is the fiery lake is said to be so destructive even death dies. Hades is destroyed.
• The fact of ordinary reality is that fire burns up everything placed in the fire and destroys it to the point the thing is destroys and no longer exists. The fact of scripture is that is the imagery Jesus used to describe the eternal punishment the unrepentant sinner receives.
• The fact of scripture is that even hades and death are thrown into this fire; the fire is the penalty to which sin, hell, and death are subjugated.
• The fact of scripture is that the fiery lake is not hades. Hades in thrown into the fiery lake.
• The fact of scripture is that death will eventually be abolished. Death dies.

The alternative is that sin, death, and hades exist in the new creation and there is always a spot in the new creation where sin is located and can be forever observed.

 

[Josheb]

All receive the final state,

The "final state" is the fiery lake into which Hades, death and all unrepentant sinners are thrown.

but not all are receiving same exact punishment

Scripture states otherwise. Aside from those saved by grace, Revelation 20:13-14 says they do all receive the exact same punishment.

Revelation 20:13-14
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If person's name is not in the book of life then s/he gets tossed into the fiery lake along with Hades and death. They ALL receive the exact same punishment.

Physical and spiritual death, yet also is eternal existing, apart form Presense and person of God, as in the lost shall be stuck in state of ruin, but still alive

Scripture says otherwise. When all that scripture states on what happens to Christ-denying sinners is compiled the logical necessities of it all is that they each cease to exist. In the end even Hades and death die. They are reported to experience a second death, and death so lethal even Hades and death are dead.

If death is not dead, then neither is anything else.

 

[Josheb]

You specifically DIDN'T want an expanded answer to your question.

I have thought it through. It posits the existence of a place created by God that is specifically AWAY from him ... exile from His presence (in Heaven or on Earth). If such a place existed, it would be a place devoid of all the positive attributes that come from God [love, peace, joy, hope, goodness, kindness, mercy ...]. If we had to invent a word to describe such a place, we might borrow the English word "Hell" as a placeholder. [shrug]

It would still be in creation.

 

[atpollard]

It would still be in creation.

Why?

“creation” currently exists in 4 perceived dimensions (space-time) with “Heaven” being a metaphysical location outside of “creation” (how high is heaven?).

So what prevents God from creating a new “Heaven and Earth” (merged physical and metaphysical creation where both angels and humans dwell together forever with God) and also making a multi-dimension that is specifically “AWAY from God”? Why can God not create a metaphysical “Burn Barrel” for His trash?

 

[Josheb]

Why?

Because God created it.

So what prevents God from creating a new “Heaven and Earth” (merged physical and metaphysical creation where both angels and humans dwell together forever with God) and also making a multi-dimension that is specifically “AWAY from God”?

Nothing but that which He creates is by definition a created creation.

Why can God not create a cosmic “Burn Barrel” for His trash?

He can create a cosmic burn barrel for His trash. That is, in fact, an analogy I myself often use. Sinners are trash and He can do whatever He likes with the trash, including throughout onto the trash heap and burn it ALL up.

If He created a burn barrel that burn barrel, he created would be a creation created by the Creator. What He created would be a part of created creation, something created in the created creation.

It would still be in creation.

Why?

Because it is created!

I have thought it through. It posits the existence of a place created by God that is specifically AWAY from him...

It is still a place created by God, a created place, and it is still a created place in created creation. It is not external to creation, and it most definitely is not an uncreated place.