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Kirk Cameron Rejects Eternal Conscious Torment, Embraces Conditional Immortality

John Bauer

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From Protestia.com:

Former actor-turned-evangelist Kirk Cameron has revealed that he no longer believes in ‘eternal conscious torment’ for the wicked, which he suggests is “cruel and unusual punishment.” Instead, he revealed he leans strongly towards annihilationism, saying: “It fits the character of God.”

Click here for the rest of the story …
 
From Protestia.com:

Former actor-turned-evangelist Kirk Cameron has revealed that he no longer believes in ‘eternal conscious torment’ for the wicked, which he suggests is “cruel and unusual punishment.” Instead, he revealed he leans strongly towards annihilationism, saying: “It fits the character of God.”

Click here for the rest of the story …
Is there a particular point of inquiry or comment to be discussed relevant to Cameron's position?


Lots of mainstream orthodox Christians have questioned the premise of "eternal torment" and held to conditional mortality. Cults have, unblessedly, built their soteriology/hamartiology/eschatology around the position but that does not mean without validity and merit, that it should not be considered, or that it is not the truth regarding the sinner's eternal disposition. Personally, I think appeals to God's "character" lame and foolish. All sides use that argument feebly. The fact is God's character is such that He can do whatever He wants to do with trash. That's what God-denying, Christ-denying dead-in-sin humans are: trash. The fact that God has any mind for any sinner is a function of grace and every single person who has ever lived should be thankful for that fact. Good endless punish sinners for sin if He so chooses to do so.

The way I see it, annihilationism is the correct position to hold because if death is not destroyed - literally and completely eradicated from existence - then nothing else in the fiery lake is, either (whether the lake is construed to be something literal or figurative). If death is not destroyed then the new heavens and earth still contain death (sinful death, not the kind of death like that inherent in the cycle plants). There are two main Greek words for "destroy" in the NT. One is phthora, which means to rot, decay, perish or be destroyed. Items that rot and decay eventually cease to exist. They do not rot in perpetuity. The enormity of rotting material may mean the rotting take a very long time before it is all done and there's nothing left to rot, but the end is still the same: everything decays until it ceases to exist. The other main word used for destruction is apolesai. That word is more immediate, extensive and final. It literally means to eradicate to the point of cessation of existence. An example of the first term in scripture would be Galatians 6:8 and an example of the latter would be Matthew 10:28. There's one other word that's germane: "katargeo," or "abolished," or "annulled." This is sometimes translated as "destroyed." And example of that would be 1 Corinthians 15:26.


Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will reap destruction from the flesh, but the one who sows to the Spirit will reap eternal life from the Spirit.

Matthew 10:28
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:26 KJV
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 ESV
The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:26 NAS
The last enemy that shall be abolished is death.


In the case of Gal. 6:8, the NAS does not do an adequate job of reflecting the Greek. The KJV and the more modern translations use, "corruption." Corruption is reaped when a person, including a Christian in the case of Gal. 6:8, reaps rot, decay, or corruption. In the case of 1 Cor. 15:26, the NAS is a better reflection. Either way, something that has been abolished or annulled ceases. It's done away with, brought to an end, destroyed.

Therefore, if there is a time and place for/of conscious torment on the other side of the grave (and I think there is) then it is not forever. Eventually the rot and decay of sin and the judgment of God thereof have an eradicating effect and eventually there is neither sin nor death in the new creation. John Stott was an Annihilationist. So too is Clark Pinnock (who is often criticized for his Open Theism). Ignatius of Antioch (D: c. 108 AD) argued those who abstained from the Eucharist, denying "the Eucharist is the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ" (this was before the doctrine of transubstantiation existed), would not rise again. He asserted a conditional mortality. In his "First Apology" he asserted God bestowed worthy men with immortality and the wicked were endowed with "eternal sensibility" into an everlasting fire which would bring about repentance. That repentance would not be received, and they would eventually be destroyed. For martyr it was the fire that is eternal, not the punishment. He openly argued against the Platonic Greek belief human souls were immortal. God grants eternal life only to those found in Christ. Immortality is conditional. Irenaeus took a different approach. He held all humans depend on God's will to exist and the continuation of that existence. If and when God withdraws that will the creature ceases to exist. He said the wicked would be "deprived of continuance." His point of entrance into the topic was his repudiation of Gnosticism, which taught/teaches the soul is immortal. There have always been Christians who understand scripture to teach immortality is conditional and eternal or everlasting torment or punishment contradicts the normal, ordinary meaning of death.

If death is not dead, then neither is anything else and the word is meaningless.

Revelation 20:13-15
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The death of death is the second death and there is no more death.

So why is Kirk Cameron's rejection of eternal conscious torment and embrace of conditional immortality significant?






For those with an interest, there are two Counterpoint Series books (both with the same title but different contributors) books titled, "Four Views on Hell," that are worth a read. This link is to the second version, but here's the link to the first book. The arguments made by the contributors are similar. I suspect Stackhouse replaced Pinnock in order to remove Open Theism from the mix. I think the use of the word "hell" is suspect because its use implies pagan mythologies have merit. Is suspect Jesus used the word "sheol," not hel, hades, or tartarus. Even though the Greek uses those terms Jesus could not be implying there exist other gods (like those of the underworld). Rarely is that considered in the discussion of the sinner's disposition.
 
Former actor-turned-evangelist Kirk Cameron has revealed that he no longer believes in ‘eternal conscious torment’ for the wicked, which he suggests is “cruel and unusual punishment.” Instead, he revealed he leans strongly towards annihilationism, saying: “It fits the character of God.”
I hope Kirk is correct. I'm not betting on it though. ;)
 
I hope Kirk is correct. I'm not betting on it though. ;)
Why? God wouldn't be true to His Word if eternal torment was untrue.

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
Why? God wouldn't be true to His Word if eternal torment was untrue.
Of course. God is perfect, His actions are perfect and the torment of unbelievers is for the best. I just don't get any pleasure from it and wouldn't be disheartened if God had declared annihilationism but God has declared a better way and I bow to His wisdom.

11 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live.
 
Is there a particular point of inquiry or comment to be discussed relevant to Cameron's position? … Why is Kirk Cameron's rejection of eternal conscious torment and embrace of conditional immortality significant?

Only because of his celebrity within the Christian community (i.e. famous and well-known). It is noteworthy insofar as it brings increased attention to the doctrine of conditional immortality and the troubling theological implications of eternal conscious torment, in addition to being a story of public interest to people like Gen Xers who remember him fondly as Mike Seaver.

For me, the most troubling aspect of the eternal conscious torment doctrine is its implication that wrath is an eternal attribute of God, rather than a relative disposition, contingent on sin and ordered toward a judicial end. Wrath answers to a problem; goodness names God’s eternal character. John R. W. Stott had some great material on this issue in his magnum opus, The Cross of Christ.

It also implies that some corner of creation will be forever marred by sin, that sin, anguish, and hatred of God are never entirely removed. The language of Scripture testifies that every last enemy is destroyed, not quarantined somewhere. It describes an unopposed, healed, consummated order in which no rival principle continues to assert itself. If a sector of creation remains eternally populated by image-bearers in conscious rebellion, anguish, and hatred of God, then sin is never entirely eradicated; it is quarantined and preserved. That is God over all, but God is not all in all (1 Cor 15:24-28), nor would God reconcile all things to himself, just most things (Col 1:20).

It also sits awkwardly with a Christological center. Wrath is not merely expressed on the cross; it is exhausted in judgment. Christ’s mediatorial work is a witness to the fact that divine justice can be satisfied, as are the many judgment texts in the OT.

The usual rejoinder—“hell glorifies God by displaying his justice”—concedes the problem rather than solving it. Justice glorified by endless sin presupposes sin as a permanent feature of reality. That edges uncomfortably close to a Manichaean structure: good eternally opposed by evil, even if evil is contained and powerless.

And let’s not forget: Hell cannot be self-existent. Nothing exists except by divine decree and sustenance.
 
For me, the most troubling aspect of the eternal conscious torment doctrine is its implication that wrath is an eternal attribute of God, rather than a relative disposition, contingent on sin and ordered toward a judicial end. Wrath answers to a problem; goodness names God’s eternal character. John R. W. Stott had some great material on this issue in his magnum opus, The Cross of Christ.
That is very well said and "The Cross..." is an excellent book. I cannot recall ever reading anything by Stott that wasn't profoundly informative and uplifting. The Church lost something special when he and Packer died.
It also implies that some corner of creation will be forever marred by sin, that sin, anguish, and hatred of God are never entirely removed.
Exactly! There's a new creation where everything is new and shiny..... except for that pit of fire over there in the corner where people are endlessly writhing in immeasurable pain as the flesh burns off, returns, burns off, returns, while the smell of the barbeque masks the underlying stench of decay.
The usual rejoinder—“hell glorifies God by displaying his justice”—concedes the problem rather than solving it...
I get what you're saying but my response to that rejoinder is they'd argued a strawman. Hell does glorify God. Endless hell does not. By dropping the "endless" they've attempted to redefine the matter and thereby misrepresent it. The same cross that saves also condemns and the result of the former is eternal life; the result of the latter is eternal destruction (destruction that is eternal).
And let’s not forget: Hell cannot be self-existent. Nothing exists except by divine decree and sustenance.
(y)

Did you catch that part I posted about "lesser gods"? This trips up people a lot. Christian doctrine hadn't formed when the New Testament was written. The first century Jew and the first century Gentile would have understood the words "hades," "hel," and "tartarus" as references to pagan deities, as well as some under-the-ground geographic location ruled by those deities. They were lesser gods in pagan mythologies just like Baal, Beelzebub, or Dagon. There is no Aphrodite, Apollo, Artemis, or Dionysus and more than there is a Hades (Greek God of the underworld), or Hel (Norse goddess of death). Assuming Jesus ever used those actual words, he did so repudiate the entire construct. In old-school Judaism you died and that was it. Outside of what we now call mythology, Judaism was nihilistic. It was the Pharisees who preached a resurrection, the possibility of a life on the other side of the grave. Everyone else outside of Judaism held to a belief in an underworld where dead folks continued living. It was usually a despondent existence but a conscious one, nonetheless. A conscious existence in the realm of a lesser God. The alternative in some cultures, like the Greeks and Romans, was that of the Elysian Fields where a noble warrior or person of great accomplishment (works) could be awarded or "promoted" to a status that would allow them to live at the foot of Olympus, just outside where the gods lived. Good for them.

Jesus comes along and confronts all of it. You will die. You will die and face judgment. You will die and face judgment but there is only one of two outcomes: eternal life or destruction in which your body and soul are destroyed. There are no lesser gods and even if there were true, they all bow in subjugation to me, the Son of God Almighty Who is God. I rule them all and they too will all be destroyed.

So, they nailed him to a cross thinking that would solve the problem when in reality it simply empowered their destruction and our salvation.


What? So you don't believe in hell?

Aaaarrgh!
 
I Posit for your consideration ...

There are two types of creation (that which exists). The first is that which God merely commands to exist 'ex nihilo' and serves a temporal (existing for a season) purpose then ceases to exist. The second is "of God" himself and is innately eternal. Genesis 1 paints a clear dichotomy between God simply commanding everything that exists to come into being, and God creating man. God forms man personally and we are animated by the very "breath of God".
This is the source of the concept of the 'imago dei'. To cut down a tree or kill a cow for steaks is to end the life of something that was created 'temporal' ... to exist for a season and be gone. To end a human life is to attack something 'eternal' ... an assault upon the very "stuff" of God.
That of which we (not our bodies, but the true US ... the imago dei within us) are made cannot be destroyed. People are 'God-breathed' and cannot be 'annihilated'. It raises the bar on the price God paid to love a rebellious people so much that we would be his eternal image bearers ... for the greatest better (oneness with his children) and the most terrible worse (the anguish of a parent whose child is dying).

Just a thought ... nothing more.
 
There are two types of creation (that which exists). The first is that which God merely commands to exist 'ex nihilo' and serves a temporal (existing for a season) purpose then ceases to exist. The second is "of God" himself and is innately eternal.
Create is define as "bring (something) into existence". Therefore, anything that is eternal like God cannot be a creation.

To end a human life is to attack something 'eternal'
"Eternal" definition - without beginning or end. Outside of time.
Again, this conflicts with the definition of "create". A person cannot be both a "creation" and "eternal

That of which we (not our bodies, but the true US ... the imago dei within us) are made cannot be destroyed. People are 'God-breathed' and cannot be 'annihilated'.
Well, it seems scripture says those in hell and heaven will live eternally but I would prefer to say God DOES NOT destroy as opposed to God CANNOT destroy a soul.
 
Create is define as "bring (something) into existence". Therefore, anything that is eternal like God cannot be a creation.
Foul. ;) I defined creation as I was using it to mean "(that which exists)" ... and God does exist!
There is no good generic noun for "that which exists".
:)
 
"Eternal" definition - without beginning or end. Outside of time.
Again, this conflicts with the definition of "create". A person cannot be both a "creation" and "eternal
In Genesis, God forms a lifeless lump (destined to return to dust) into a "man-shaped" inanimate corpse ... an act of "creation" [temporal].
God animates this corpse (Adam) with HIS (God's) breath/spirit blown into the nostrils of the corpse and Adam "became a living being".
  • The source of the animating force in man is part of GOD [eternal]
  • Our soul is eternal [certainly we survive after the death of our body unless we are prepared to reject all verses on Judgement as well]
  • Through Christ, some will be reunited with God for eternity, so some human souls clearly will NEVER end [created people with eternal souls].
  • I posit that this "eternal human soul/spirit" that everyone has which survives the death of the body has as its source, that first breath from God [eternal spirit] into Adam.
  • Thus our soul CANNOT be destroyed, ever, any more than God himself could be destroyed.
  • We (human beings) are created [temporally] but containing a "divine spark" [eternal] that set us apart from the rest of creation.
The God-Breath that sustains our immortal soul, cannot be annihilated, any more than God himself could be annihilated.
 
Well, it seems scripture says those in hell and heaven will live eternally but I would prefer to say God DOES NOT destroy as opposed to God CANNOT destroy a soul.
We would prefer everyone in our family be saved ... but we don't get a vote (we get to trust God's goodness). 🫶
 
I Posit for your consideration ...

There are two types of creation (that which exists). The first is that which God merely commands to exist 'ex nihilo' and serves a temporal (existing for a season) purpose then ceases to exist. The second is "of God" himself and is innately eternal. Genesis 1 paints a clear dichotomy between God simply commanding everything that exists to come into being, and God creating man. God forms man personally and we are animated by the very "breath of God".

This is the source of the concept of the 'imago dei'. To cut down a tree or kill a cow for steaks is to end the life of something that was created 'temporal' ... to exist for a season and be gone. To end a human life is to attack something 'eternal' ... an assault upon the very "stuff" of God.

That of which we (not our bodies, but the true US ... the imago dei within us) are made cannot be destroyed. People are 'God-breathed' and cannot be 'annihilated'. It raises the bar on the price God paid to love a rebellious people so much that we would be his eternal image bearers ... for the greatest better (oneness with his children) and the most terrible worse (the anguish of a parent whose child is dying).

Just a thought ... nothing more.
Sophistry
People are 'God-breathed' and cannot be 'annihilated'.
Scripture states otherwise.
The second is "of God" himself and is innately eternal.
Nope. There is a difference between something being everlasting, and something being eternal.
God forms man personally and we are animated by the very "breath of God".
The breath of God does not bring eternal life. Only Christ does that.
To end a human life is to attack something 'eternal' ... an assault upon the very "stuff" of God.
Begging the question. You haven't proved the God's breath of life is eternal. The argument presented amounts to an unproven assumption being asserted and then re-asserted as its own proof.

Genesis 2:7
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

That verse does not state the breath of life is "God's." Nor does it state that breath is divine in any way akin to what you've asserted, and it does not state it is eternal. God's breath of life is also what animated other animals. The breath of the Almighty gives life (Job 33:4) but all creatures have the breath of life in them, and they are not made in God's image. Assuming the breath of life is what constitutes the image of God is not what scripture actually states. The same word used when scripture states God will destroy demons (and Satan, and death) is the same word used when God states He will destroy sinners.

Matthew 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

That word "destroy," in the Greek literally means to destroy to the point of cessation of existence.

Acts 3:23
And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

That Greek word for "destroy," literally means annihilate, to utterly destroy.

Those are God's words in God's word, not my words or my added interpretation of His words.
That of which we (not our bodies, but the true US ... the imago dei within us) are made cannot be destroyed.
Prove it. Don't assert the premise without evidence. Don't assert it baselessly. The image of God is not God. It's just an image.
Just a thought ... nothing more.
Well, if it contradicts God's word then it is something more than "just a thought." If it contradicts God's word then it is a false thought, a false teaching. The facts of scripture are that God uses several images (figures of speech) and several specific words to destroy what happens to the sinner on the other side of the grave and several of the images necessarily mean destruction to the point of cessation of existence or annihilation. Chaff thrown into a fire does not continue being chaff. Rotting, decaying, decomposing flesh does not continue to be flesh in perpetuity. It eventually ceases to exist. The fiery lake is so lethal, so destructive, that even death is destroyed. If that destruction is not a destruction where death ceases to exist..... then death remains in the new heavens and earth.

One more point to consider. The position asserted makes a certain degree of sense if the "tripartite" view of humans is assumed. If a human is three parts (body, soul, and spirit) then the potential for two of the three to be destroyed but the spirit persists. The problem with that argument is the simple fact to remove one "part" is to cause the human to cease to exist. There is absolutely no precedent for this anywhere in scripture. There are no bodiless spirits in scripture. There are no bodiless souls in scripture. To remove one part is to cause the entire person to cease to exist.
 
Foul. ;) I defined creation as I was using it to mean "(that which exists)" ... and God does exist!
Yes, and when you did so you created a contradiction because God is not crated.

  • Creation is that which exists.
  • Creation exists.
  • Therefore, creation is created.

  • Creation is that which exists.
  • God exists.
  • Therefore, God is created.
Or even worse...
  • Creation is that which exists.
  • God exists.
  • Therefore, God is creation.

  • Creation is that which exists.
  • God exists.
  • Therefore, creation is God.

That was probably not what was intended, but these are the kinds of things your posts can be made to say if and when brought to their logically necessary conclusions. God exists, but God pre-existed created existence. There two types of existence: created and not-created. Creation (and everything in it) is, by definition created existence. It is not in any way identical to not-created existence.
There is no good generic noun for "that which exists".
:)
The word "existence" is a noun, and it perfectly means "that which exists." It means the state or fact of having being. God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist (Rom. 4:17), yet God existed prior to His doing so.

Revelation 4:11
Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.

Nothing in creation is eternal. Something might be everlasting, but its everlastingness would be due solely to God sustaining it in perpetuity. Only God is self-existing. Only God is eternal. The minute scripture stated humans are made, scripture informed its readers humans are not eternal. The are neither pre-existent, nor self-existent.
 
............The facts of scripture are that God uses several images (figures of speech) and several specific words to destroy what happens to the sinner on the other side of the grave and several of the images necessarily mean destruction to the point of cessation of existence or annihilation.....
Oops! That's supposed to read "describe," not "destroy."

God uses several specific words to describe what happens to the sinner on the other side of the grave and at least two of them literally mean destruction to the point the object of destruction no longer exists.
 
Why? God wouldn't be true to His Word if eternal torment was untrue.
I don't know if I would say it the same way you did, but I agree.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
Of course. God is perfect, His actions are perfect and the torment of unbelievers is for the best. I just don't get any pleasure from it and wouldn't be disheartened if God had declared annihilationism but God has declared a better way and I bow to His wisdom.

11 Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live.
But does it not only bring glory to His name?
 
In Genesis, God forms a lifeless lump (destined to return to dust) into a "man-shaped" inanimate corpse ... an act of "creation" [temporal].
God animates this corpse (Adam) with HIS (God's) breath/spirit blown into the nostrils of the corpse and Adam "became a living being".
  • The source of the animating force in man is part of GOD [eternal]
  • Our soul is eternal [certainly we survive after the death of our body unless we are prepared to reject all verses on Judgement as well]
  • Through Christ, some will be reunited with God for eternity, so some human souls clearly will NEVER end [created people with eternal souls].
  • I posit that this "eternal human soul/spirit" that everyone has which survives the death of the body has as its source, that first breath from God [eternal spirit] into Adam.
  • Thus our soul CANNOT be destroyed, ever, any more than God himself could be destroyed.
  • We (human beings) are created [temporally] but containing a "divine spark" [eternal] that set us apart from the rest of creation.
The God-Breath that sustains our immortal soul, cannot be annihilated, any more than God himself could be annihilated.
Well, the premise that we are a "part" of God would contradict God's simplicity and this premise is vital to your argument.
The term that describes the belief that all creation is a part of God, or that God and the universe are one and the same, is
"pantheism".
That being said, we are getting pretty deep into this and I claim a lack of knowledge. :)

I do agree that the souls of all people will never cease to exist because God wishes to sustain them and not because He can't annihilate them.

:unsure:
 
We would prefer everyone in our family be saved ... but we don't get a vote (we get to trust God's goodness).
Agreed. Whatever God does is "good" by definition. Some argue for a "greater good" when something evil is part of the equation.
 
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