• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Justification by Faith Alone

@John Bauer, @makesends, any thoughts on Christ's vindication in the resurrection?

No, you've basically covered it as well as I could have. Here, "justified in the Spirit" means that Jesus was vindicated as the righteous, divine Son by the Spirit in being raised from the dead, thereby affirming his person and work. It is closely paralleled in Romans 1:4 ("through the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead").

The verb δικαιόω (dikaioō) can carry either forensic or evidentiary connotations. The context will determine which meaning is intended, depending on grammatical voice, syntactic construction, and narrative or theological context.
 
Well I'm highly concerned you would say such a thing myself friend. It was a deeply deeply concerned set of questions.




I want to respond with clarity regarding your comment that Christ “needed to be justified from the sins of the elect.” I know you likely don’t mean to diminish His glory or imply any moral imperfection in Him—but I’m concerned the language used here, however unintentionally, suggests that.

Scripture is clear: Christ bore our sins legally, not morally. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, Paul writes, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” That doesn’t mean Christ became sinful Himself. He was counted as sin—imputed with our guilt—while remaining completely righteous in Himself. This is the consistent witness of Scripture. Isaiah 53 says, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all,” and goes on to show that His chastisement secured our peace (v.5). Yet even in bearing our sin, He remained the spotless Lamb.

Hebrews 4:15 reminds us that He was “without sin.” To say He was “legally guilty” and needed justification risks implying that there was something within Christ that needed to be made right—which is simply not the case. If He were guilty, even legally in Himself, He could not have atoned for our guilt.

You referenced 1 Timothy 3:16, which says, “He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit…” That phrase, “justified in the Spirit,” is understood to mean vindicated—that is, the Spirit confirmed and displayed His righteousness. The clearest way that happened was through His resurrection. Romans 4:25 affirms this: “He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” His rising from the dead was the Father’s public declaration that the work was finished, the payment made, and the Son vindicated in glory. It doesn’t mean He needed justification Himself.

So, I’d ask: what exactly do you mean by “Christ needed to be justified”? If it’s just another way of saying He was vindicated, then we agree though I will posit that vindicated is the best word to use in English to express truth. But if you mean that He, in some real sense, had to be declared righteous after having moral guilt, then we’re stepping outside the bounds of biblical teaching. Christ never stopped being righteous. He took on our sin judicially in order to satisfy God’s justice, but that never changed who He was: holy, undefiled, and perfectly obedient.

Sinful people stay dead; only someone who was perfect could be declared innocent under the law and rise to life under His own power. John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Romans 5:18 says that His one act of righteousness leads to justification for many. That righteousness had to be perfect from beginning to end—or it would not justify anyone.

Friend, I’m confident you hold a high view of Christ and His saving work. I only raise this because I know you wouldn’t want to say anything—however unintentionally—that could be taken as lowering the glory of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

Looking forward to hearing more of how you’re understanding that phrase “justified in the Spirit.” There's an important distinction we should be making.

In Christ and for His glory,
Hazelelponi
Very well written, well said.
[ @John Bauer , @makesends , any thoughts on Christ's vindication in the resurrection?]
I don't even like the word, "vindication", for that, except as Christ's answer to those who scorn him. He certainly didn't need to prove anything to his father.

AI, drawing from Webster and Cambridge, puts it like this: "Vindication refers to the act of proving that someone or something is right or true after others believed it was wrong. It can also mean being cleared from blame or guilt." If Christ was cleared from blame or guilt, it was misplaced blame and supposed guilt —neither one his, and certainly not in the eyes of his father.
 
@Ladodgers6
yes but righteousness was imputed b4 we receive it by Faith into our mind and conscience, then our conscience is cleaned Acts 15:9
Okay, please explain how righteousness is imputed to a sinner without Faith? Remember that Faith comes by hearing God's word. Sinclair Furgurson said, that God's word (Scripture) is alive full of God's breath that once hear they believe. Read John 10.

25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, "Some manuscripts What my Father has given to me" is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

We are made alive by God's word, just like when he said, "Let there be light".

2 Cor. 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5 For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Are we regenerated by the living word of God and the Power of the Holy Spirit to hear and believe. Just like Christ's people who hear his voice and follow him.

But we are not declared righteous without Faith Alone in Christ. To say a person is righteous without Faith is works. This is the RCC view of Justification.​
 
Example a convicted criminal sets in his prison cell, and unbeknown to him, a legal advocate has secured his release from the Judge, the Judge declares him a free man, send him the good news, hence hours or days later a messenger reveals to him the good news of his release, he is a free man, justice has been served. Now that's the first he heard of it, and he experiences the enjoyment of it, he believes the good news. But that's not what set him free, as when he heard about it, no he was set free earlier by a skilled advocate on his behalf. I know its not the best illustration, but hopefully you see the point.
You kinda need more context here. This is about the tale of the two Adams, who both are in a Covenant with God. The first Adam entered a Covenant with God to obey God's command not to eat from the one tree, and attached to this command were stipulation blessings if he fulfilled this Covenant with Perfect Obedience and curses if he breach this Covenant. Obviously we both know what happened. And brought sin, death and God's curse upon all mankind as Adam was exiled from Garden Temple and from God's presence.

But immediately after this treason act of Adam, God made another Covenant; a Covenant of Grace wherein God will send his Son the Last Adam to do what the first Adam failed to do. Christ came and was born under the Law to fulfill the Law with Perfect Obedience, to kill and condemn our sin in his body and to take our place and suffer the penalty and punishment we deserve so we could live and be redeem, be reconciled to God once again. To have fellowship with the Holy Trinity.

Our sin is placed upon the head of Christ; just like the OT sacrifices that pointed forward to the final sacrifice, Christ. And the Promise in the Covenant of Grace that Christ will cover us in His Righteousness, Holiness and Sanctification once and for all. His righteousness becomes ours through Faith Alone in Union with Christ. In him we receive all the heavenly blessings that he merited for us.

To God the Father be the glory in the Son be our Salvation by the Power of the Holy Spirit.​
 
You dont appear to grasp what Christ accomplished at the Cross ! Salvation/Justification. You seem to believe He only made an opportunity for Salvation/Justification, which is foreign to the scripture.
John 3: 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Be saved is in a verb, in the aorist tense, It is passive it is subjunctive and it is singular in the third person

Passive mood indicates the person or noun (in this case the "world" is acted on. it is not that they have done anything.

There are 4 moods to think of
  • The INDICATIVE mood indicates FACTS about actions or states.
  • The INFINITIVE mood is a VERBAL NOUN.
  • The IMPERATIVE mood is used to give COMMANDS.
In this verse. Jesus does not use any of these moods. He does not say it is a fact. He is not giving a command on something we must do. and it is not a verbal noun.
this brings us to the 4th mood, the subjunctive
  • The subjunctive mood primarily refers to HYPOTHETICAL actions in the PRESENT or FUTURE, i.e., in the same time covered by the PRIMARY tenses of verbs
The time sense is indicated by the aorist

Since it is not in the present tense - ongoing and not the perfect tense - a completed action, then we can assume the time is ongoing with no stated begining or end

or as another source puts it.

Greek grammar encompasses four chief subjunctive types: the Present Subjunctive, Aorist Subjunctive, Perfect Subjunctive, and the Pluperfect Subjunctive.

Present Subjunctive denotes a potential or uncertain present action or state, which can be active, middle, or passive in voice.

Aorist Subjunctive designates a possible or indefinite future action without emphasizing the action’s duration.

Perfect and Pluperfect Subjunctive
are less common in Greek and signify a completed action with ongoing significance.

hence you can see the interpreters of the word were correct in using the word "might be saved" and did not use the word "shall be saved" ( A future even that was written in stone, a statement of fact not a possibility) or the words "are being saved" (a present tense fact that the world is being saved as a statement of fact. not a possibility) or has been saved ( a completed action. again a statement of fact)

So your wrong. Jesus himself said he came. so everyone has the opportunity to be saved. Just like Moses lifted the serpent. so everyone had the opportunity
'
who was saved in Israel? Those who in faith believed and looked

Who is saved eternally for all time? Those who in faith believed and looked to the cross (recieved his gift.

again,

He who believes is not condemned. THEY have been born again.

He who does not believe is condemned already (they are sitll in a dead state. but the have the opportunity as long as they are alive to repent and come to faiht. just like we did when we were non believers
 
Well I'm highly concerned you would say such a thing myself friend. It was a deeply deeply concerned set of questions.




I want to respond with clarity regarding your comment that Christ “needed to be justified from the sins of the elect.” I know you likely don’t mean to diminish His glory or imply any moral imperfection in Him—but I’m concerned the language used here, however unintentionally, suggests that.

Scripture is clear: Christ bore our sins legally, not morally. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, Paul writes, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” That doesn’t mean Christ became sinful Himself. He was counted as sin—imputed with our guilt—while remaining completely righteous in Himself. This is the consistent witness of Scripture. Isaiah 53 says, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all,” and goes on to show that His chastisement secured our peace (v.5). Yet even in bearing our sin, He remained the spotless Lamb.

Hebrews 4:15 reminds us that He was “without sin.” To say He was “legally guilty” and needed justification risks implying that there was something within Christ that needed to be made right—which is simply not the case. If He were guilty, even legally in Himself, He could not have atoned for our guilt.

You referenced 1 Timothy 3:16, which says, “He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit…” That phrase, “justified in the Spirit,” is understood to mean vindicated—that is, the Spirit confirmed and displayed His righteousness. The clearest way that happened was through His resurrection. Romans 4:25 affirms this: “He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” His rising from the dead was the Father’s public declaration that the work was finished, the payment made, and the Son vindicated in glory. It doesn’t mean He needed justification Himself.

So, I’d ask: what exactly do you mean by “Christ needed to be justified”? If it’s just another way of saying He was vindicated, then we agree though I will posit that vindicated is the best word to use in English to express truth. But if you mean that He, in some real sense, had to be declared righteous after having moral guilt, then we’re stepping outside the bounds of biblical teaching. Christ never stopped being righteous. He took on our sin judicially in order to satisfy God’s justice, but that never changed who He was: holy, undefiled, and perfectly obedient.

Sinful people stay dead; only someone who was perfect could be declared innocent under the law and rise to life under His own power. John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Romans 5:18 says that His one act of righteousness leads to justification for many. That righteousness had to be perfect from beginning to end—or it would not justify anyone.

Friend, I’m confident you hold a high view of Christ and His saving work. I only raise this because I know you wouldn’t want to say anything—however unintentionally—that could be taken as lowering the glory of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

Looking forward to hearing more of how you’re understanding that phrase “justified in the Spirit.” There's an important distinction we should be making.

In Christ and for His glory,
Hazelelponi

[ @John Bauer , @makesends , any thoughts on Christ's vindication in the resurrection?]
Just wanted to respond to 1 tim 3: 16

the word used is phareroo - it means to bring to the light to make clear to expose - ie, he was revealed in the flesh

Justified in the spirit does not mean he was a sinner and had to be saved. it means he was proven to be without sin, without fault. The lamb of God without blemish who came to save the world from its sin (behold the lamb of God)

and this fact was seen not only by us, but by Angels. It was preached not only to the jew but the gentile, it was believed no only by those who witnessed it first hand, but all throughout the world. And this glorified son to God was recieved up in Glory. to the father
 
Well I'm highly concerned you would say such a thing myself friend. It was a deeply deeply concerned set of questions.




I want to respond with clarity regarding your comment that Christ “needed to be justified from the sins of the elect.” I know you likely don’t mean to diminish His glory or imply any moral imperfection in Him—but I’m concerned the language used here, however unintentionally, suggests that.

Scripture is clear: Christ bore our sins legally, not morally. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, Paul writes, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” That doesn’t mean Christ became sinful Himself. He was counted as sin—imputed with our guilt—while remaining completely righteous in Himself. This is the consistent witness of Scripture. Isaiah 53 says, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all,” and goes on to show that His chastisement secured our peace (v.5). Yet even in bearing our sin, He remained the spotless Lamb.

Hebrews 4:15 reminds us that He was “without sin.” To say He was “legally guilty” and needed justification risks implying that there was something within Christ that needed to be made right—which is simply not the case. If He were guilty, even legally in Himself, He could not have atoned for our guilt.

You referenced 1 Timothy 3:16, which says, “He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit…” That phrase, “justified in the Spirit,” is understood to mean vindicated—that is, the Spirit confirmed and displayed His righteousness. The clearest way that happened was through His resurrection. Romans 4:25 affirms this: “He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” His rising from the dead was the Father’s public declaration that the work was finished, the payment made, and the Son vindicated in glory. It doesn’t mean He needed justification Himself.

So, I’d ask: what exactly do you mean by “Christ needed to be justified”? If it’s just another way of saying He was vindicated, then we agree though I will posit that vindicated is the best word to use in English to express truth. But if you mean that He, in some real sense, had to be declared righteous after having moral guilt, then we’re stepping outside the bounds of biblical teaching. Christ never stopped being righteous. He took on our sin judicially in order to satisfy God’s justice, but that never changed who He was: holy, undefiled, and perfectly obedient.

Sinful people stay dead; only someone who was perfect could be declared innocent under the law and rise to life under His own power. John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Romans 5:18 says that His one act of righteousness leads to justification for many. That righteousness had to be perfect from beginning to end—or it would not justify anyone.

Friend, I’m confident you hold a high view of Christ and His saving work. I only raise this because I know you wouldn’t want to say anything—however unintentionally—that could be taken as lowering the glory of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

Looking forward to hearing more of how you’re understanding that phrase “justified in the Spirit.” There's an important distinction we should be making.

In Christ and for His glory,
Hazelelponi

[ @John Bauer , @makesends , any thoughts on Christ's vindication in the resurrection?]
I explained my pov and it appears you still didnt receive it. I cant express it more clearer. Sometimes you may need to read things over more than once to get a proper understanding.
 
You kinda need more context here. This is about the tale of the two Adams, who both are in a Covenant with God. The first Adam entered a Covenant with God to obey God's command not to eat from the one tree, and attached to this command were stipulation blessings if he fulfilled this Covenant with Perfect Obedience and curses if he breach this Covenant. Obviously we both know what happened. And brought sin, death and God's curse upon all mankind as Adam was exiled from Garden Temple and from God's presence.

But immediately after this treason act of Adam, God made another Covenant; a Covenant of Grace wherein God will send his Son the Last Adam to do what the first Adam failed to do. Christ came and was born under the Law to fulfill the Law with Perfect Obedience, to kill and condemn our sin in his body and to take our place and suffer the penalty and punishment we deserve so we could live and be redeem, be reconciled to God once again. To have fellowship with the Holy Trinity.

Our sin is placed upon the head of Christ; just like the OT sacrifices that pointed forward to the final sacrifice, Christ. And the Promise in the Covenant of Grace that Christ will cover us in His Righteousness, Holiness and Sanctification once and for all. His righteousness becomes ours through Faith Alone in Union with Christ. In him we receive all the heavenly blessings that he merited for us.

To God the Father be the glory in the Son be our Salvation by the Power of the Holy Spirit.​
You seem to be going all over the place here.
 
All this and you said nothing really
to a blind person. Your right, I said nothing because they can not see.

But the greek said alot. and the fact you can not refute anything I said. well again, This just shows who you are.
 
You seem to be going all over the place here.
No Sir, to understand the redemptive plan and unfolding of it through time and history is key. This is what you are missing. I am not judging you because I once stood here. Do you believe Faith is a Gift from God?

You still haven't answered how a sinner is justified without Faith.
 
No Sir, to understand the redemptive plan and unfolding of it through time and history is key. This is what you are missing. I am not judging you because I once stood here. Do you believe Faith is a Gift from God?

You still haven't answered how a sinner is justified without Faith.
I have answered it.
 
Please provide the reference point. I have spent decades studying Justification by Faith Alone.

Which post did you provide the explanation so I can read it.

Thanks in advance.
I provided it when I posted it.
 
@Ladodgers6

yes but righteousness was imputed b4 we receive it by Faith into our mind and conscience, then our conscience is cleaned Acts 15:9

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Faith receives a invisible spiritual reality Heb 11:1
Okay, you quote Hebrews which I love by the way. So, let's look at Hebrews 11.

Heb. 11:7,...By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Our Justification b4 God exists but its not seen.
Before God exists???? Huh???
Our Faith doesnt make it a reality, it receives it as a reality, Gods declaration in heaven based on Christs finished work. Don't you believe that ? I hope so
Yes, absolutely, our Faith doesn't make Christ who he is or what He has accomplished. The truth about who Christ is and what he's done is always truth regardless of our Faith. I do not know where this is coming from? But Faith unites us to Christ believing in who he is and what he has done for me, you, us. Without Faith the reality of Christ and his finished works benefits me, you us nothing, right?

It's ironic that you quote Hebrews 11 because the whole chapter is about having Faith. Paul makes a contrast between Abel and Cain. One who possesses Faith and the other does not.


yeah I understand, but do you understand it. All that took place b4 I existed. When He sat down at the right hand of God, our sin penalty was gone Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

They gone sir, just as the Psalmist says Ps 79

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

So how pray tell is any elect sinner born with sin charged to them ? What sin or sins can be laid to the charge of Gods elect ? Christ has died and rose again for their Justification. Now if you believe God still charges their sins against them until they come to Faith, I believe that's incorrect and its a slight against Christ setting at the Right hand of God after purging them away.



sweet dreams, and may God give you understanding of this solemn matter
Are you talking about election or justification? And I believe you are convoluting it here. To be clear are you saying that a sinner doesn't need Faith because they are elected? And a follow up question: is elect under the same penalty and punishment as the non-elect?
 
Since justification is the declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, pronouncement of sin removed, it is the result of salvation, which is remittance of sin.
It's spiritually moving and inspiring to see people who know what Justification entails. Precisely spot on. Our Justification through Faith Alone is a alien righteousness which is a extra nos object of Christ and his finished works that are credited, given, reckoned, to those who believe in the good news of the Gospel that freely gives us the forgiveness of sins by the payment of blood by Christ in our place (PSA), and Christ fulfilling the Covenant of Works (Law/Mosaic) with his perfect obedience that is given to those who believe this good news and promises of redemption in Christ. Sinners are not made RIGHTEOUSNESS but are declared in their sinful condition righteous, holy and sanctified because of they union with Christ through Faith Alone.

Paul makes this marvelous good news clear in Romans, Galatians.

Justified by Faith​

Galatians 2:15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

So, again, one cannot be declared righteous without Faith! Scripture is clear on this point.​
 
@Ladodgers6



See this shows me you not understanding my explanation. I dont know where you got that comment from ?
Now to be fair with you. I do believe in the Covenant of Redemption between the persons of the Trinity in eternity. I further believe that I was saved on the Cross 2000 years old outside of Jerusalem. When Christ finished it at the Cross. The famous last words of our Lord and Savior.

Then throughout history as the good new is being preached and sinners believe the Gospel good news and promises by the power of the preached word and regenerating power of the Holy Spirit we believe and are untied to Christ and get all heavenly blessings merited by the God-Man. This is when a sinner is actually sealed by God in His Son through the power of word and Spirit!

So, I understand what you are saying by stating we are righteous before Faith. But it is when we are united to Christ through Faith is when we are actually declared righteous before God and the universe that cannot be undone through God's promise because He is the one who is faithful, he is the Just and the Justifier, and nobody can bring any charge to God's elect.​
 
Last edited:
Back
Top