Justification by Faith Alone

[brightfame52]

@Arial

The elect are justified by faith.

They are, I never denied that but affirmed it many times.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing comes from the word of Christ. (Romans 10:17) The NIV words it this way. Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Yep thats also true

Our justification is a result of the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

Yep, thats True as well as a result of non imputation of our sins, for the reconciled dont have sins imouted to them 2 Cor 5:19

But he did not justify us on the cross, he did the work necessary for us to be justified.

Thats false, they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9 and when He bare our sins Isa 53:11 You are insinuating that His work He did on the Cross wasn't sufficient to Justify them, it fell short

We are not justified before we come to faith in Christ.

Thats True as far as our knowledge of it is concerned, but the actual Justification b4 Justice and from the Law was at the Cross. But to say His work alone on the Cross fell short of Justifying the elect before God, is terribly wrong, and His Resurrection testifies against that notion Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification. His resurrection declares He and them He died for are Justified b4 God ! If you dont believe that, its not good

Please read Gill on Rom 4:25 and the testification of the resurrection and may God give you understanding:

was raised again for our justification; he was raised again from the dead by his Father, to whom this is often ascribed; and by himself, by his own power, which proves him to be the mighty God; and this was done not only that he might live an immortal and glorious life in our nature, having finished the work he undertook and came about, but for "our justification". He died in the room and stead of his people, and by dying made satisfaction for their sins; he rose again as their head and representative, and was legally discharged, acquitted, and justified, and they in him. Christ's resurrection did not procure the justification of his people, that was done by his obedience and death; but was for the testification of it, that it might fully appear that sin was atoned for, and an everlasting righteousness was brought in; and for the application of it, or that Christ might live and see his righteousness imputed, and applied to all those for whom he had wrought it out.

 

[Arial]

They are, I never denied that but affirmed it many times.

I know, but you also say they were justified at the cross. So which is it?

Thats false, they were Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9 and when He bare our sins Isa 53:11 You are insinuating that His work He did on the Cross wasn't sufficient to Justify them, it fell short

Consider that when Paul said we are justified by his blood, he is saying what I said in a different way. That it was the shed blood (his death----the life is in the blood)that purchased our justification. And that he is not saying that we were justified when the blood was shed? In Isa 53 it is describing the work that he did on the cross---what he was doing and what his death was accomplishing. How is that in any way saying his work on the cross was insufficient to justify all that God is giving him? "It is finished." he said. So I am insinuating no such thing as what you claim I am doing. It would be better if you asked if I was instead of saying that I do.

Thats True as far as our knowledge of it is concerned, but the actual Justification b4 Justice and from the Law was at the Cross.

That is false. It is impossible to be justified before we are justified. We are predestined to be justified before the foundation of the world, because we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. To be placed in him by the Holy Spirit, through faith. It does not say that we are justified before the foundation----. It is the very fact that Christ's work on the cross is sufficient to justify us, that this foreknowing, calling, and predestining, and conforming and justifying takes place. (Eph 4) It is the Person and Work of Christ that our faith is in.

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification. His resurrection declares He and them He died for are Justified b4 God ! If you dont believe that, its not good

διὰ + accusative construction (for) can either express Cause/reason or Purpose/goal. So the question becomes did Christ rise because we were justified. Or did he rise for the purpose of our justification. Contextually, and in light of the biblical teaching on justification through faith, it is most likely a parallelism.

Death (for our sin)
Resurrection (for our right standing before God.

By simply rendering it in the literal form "delivered because of our offences and raised again because of our justification, and not considering the different expressions of "for",in your mind you have made it say that we were justified at the cross. Becoming justified is a personal situation. We are not born justified. We are justified when we are placed in Christ.

Please read Gill on Rom 4:25 and the testification of the resurrection and may God give you understanding:

I don't deny any of that and haven't. But that does not say that we were justified before they came to faith. They were not justified before God until they came to faith but they were predestined to do so. We have to be in union with him to receive the benefits of his work. The WORK for justification was complete at the cross.

 

[brightfame52]

@Arial

I know, but you also say they were justified at the cross. So which is it?

Both. Faith Justification is when God given Faith embraces the Knowledge of their Justification at the Cross. I have said this over a million times, and you obviously dont pay attention or you should already know that I believe Justification b4 God is solely accomplished by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9 and sooner or later the Justified one is given Faith to see it, embrace it and rejoice about it. Please dont ask me that again, print this page and my response.

 

[Arial]

@Arial



Both. Faith Justification is when God given Faith embraces the Knowledge of their Justification at the Cross. I have said this over a million times, and you obviously dont pay attention or you should already know that I believe Justification b4 God is solely accomplished by the Blood of Christ Rom 5:9 and sooner or later the Justified one is given Faith to see it, embrace it and rejoice about it. Please dont ask me that again, print this page and my response.

Then why are you arguing with and insulting those who believe that too and say so, telling them they are insinuating that what Christ did on the cross was insufficient for justification? It is you who does not understand what others are saying and who is not saying what you mean very clearly.

 

[Arial]

@brightfame52

I do not agree with Gil when he says Jesus was justified. He did not need to be justified. I would quote it but quotes can't be quoted to reply to.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Justified by Christ b4 we believe !

To say that we are not justified before God until we believe, is to say Jesus Christ hath not justified us, which is contrary to the Scriptures, which saith that we are “accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.” Eph.1:6-7 We are justified by his blood. Rom.5:9 We are Justified because He bare our sins Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

So we believe because Christ has Justified us, Faith follows being Justified Rom 1:17

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.​

Being Justified by Christ through Faith Alone is biblical teaching. This is the good news for the ungodly. Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness. Sinners who believe that they receive Christ's righteousness as their own or as if they fulfilled the Law perfectly are declared righteous before God and justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Like a robe that covers the ungodly before God which they are declared justified by God!

You need to restudy this further. Or ask us questions to get better grip on this marvelous good news for the ungodly.​

 

[brightfame52]

Then why are you arguing with and insulting those who believe that too and say so, telling them they are insinuating that what Christ did on the cross was insufficient for justification? It is you who does not understand what others are saying and who is not saying what you mean very clearly.

Im not insulting anyone. But if you say a person isn't Justified before God based on the Cross/Blood of Christ b4 they believe, then you flat out deny it. How can you be Justified by the Cross if you not justified until years, centuries later after you ARE born and believe. Thats a contradiction ANYONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE. And Im saying it clearly, been saying it clearly for years and will continue to say it clearly. Now if you dont agree that Justification b4 God took place at the Cross, then dont say you believe it. Simple as that. I believe it took place at the Cross b4 I was born, and later when God regenerated me and gave me the Gift of Faith, at that time I was Justified by Faith believing what had Justified me at the Cross.

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52

I do not agree with Gil when he says Jesus was justified. He did not need to be justified. I would quote it but quotes can't be quoted to reply to.

Sir I dont really care if you dont agree with Gill, you have all the right in the world to disagree with Gill, and he with you if he were alive. But I believe Christ was Justified, in fact scripture says in a way speaking God is Justified, you have to study why Look Lk 7:29

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.

Tjere is what I believe is a prophecy of Christ in Isaiah that speaks of Christ being Justified Isa 50:6-8

6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.

7 For the Lord God will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.

8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me.

I would say you just lack understanding of what Gill meant.

 

[brightfame52]

@Arial

telling them they are insinuating that what Christ did on the cross was insufficient for justification?

Let me say this, I know that may sound harsh, but I dont believe its intentional that they think like that, however it just boils down to it, if we say, no, the elect were not Justified at the Cross b4 God, then the Cross wasn't sufficient to just that.

 

[brightfame52]

@Ladodgers6

Being Justified by Christ through Faith Alone is biblical teaching. T

It is. I believe it means Justified by Christ our object of Faith

nd to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness.

Yes but we need to be careful here because ones faith isn't their righteousness, but Christ is the object of Faith 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: His Righteousness is imputed to the elect Rom 4 6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Sinners who believe that they receive Christ's righteousness as their own or as if they fulfilled the Law perfectly are declared righteous before God and justified by the imputed righteousness of Christ. Like a robe that covers the ungodly before God which they are declared justified by God!

Yeah but it was theirs b4 they received the knowledge of it through Faith, Faith reveals it to them, the realty of it b4 God already existed. It was their own b4 they received it.

Example a convicted criminal sets in his prison cell, and unbeknown to him, a legal advocate has secured his release from the Judge, the Judge declares him a free man, send him the good news, hence hours or days later a messenger reveals to him the good news of his release, he is a free man, justice has been served. Now that's the first he heard of it, and he experiences the enjoyment of it, he believes the good news. But that's not what set him free, as when he heard about it, no he was set free earlier by a skilled advocate on his behalf. I know its not the best illustration, but hopefully you see the point.

 

[Ladodgers6]

@Ladodgers6


It is. I believe it means Justified by Christ our object of Faith

Yes, absolutely Christ is the object of our Faith. The Gospel is the good news announcement of what Christ the God-Man accomplished for us. We get everything in Christ through Faith Alone.

Yes but we need to be careful here because ones faith isn't their righteousness, but Christ is the object of Faith 1 Cor 1:30

Right, but without Faith Alone we cannot receive the righteousness that is freely given to those who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly apart from works and only by Faith Alone. Faith passively receives the free gift. This is why Paul makes juxtaposition between one who works and one who does not work but believes in Him and his promises.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: His Righteousness is imputed to the elect Rom 4 6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Amen, for only Christ can be our wisdom, righteousness and sanctification. But remember that he gives us his righteousness so we can be counted righteous before God the Father. And our sins are imputed to Christ so he can kill sin in His body and pay the price and penalty. Understand?

Yeah but it was theirs b4 they received the knowledge of it through Faith, Faith reveals it to them, the realty of it b4 God already existed. It was their own b4 they received it.

Let me tackle this after I take a nap.

Example a convicted criminal sets in his prison cell, and unbeknown to him, a legal advocate has secured his release from the Judge, the Judge declares him a free man, send him the good news, hence hours or days later a messenger reveals to him the good news of his release, he is a free man, justice has been served. Now that's the first he heard of it, and he experiences the enjoyment of it, he believes the good news. But that's not what set him free, as when he heard about it, no he was set free earlier by a skilled advocate on his behalf. I know its not the best illustration, but hopefully you see the point.

Same here.

 

[Arial]

@Arial



Let me say this, I know that may sound harsh, but I dont believe its intentional that they think like that, however it just boils down to it, if we say, no, the elect were not Justified at the Cross b4 God, then the Cross wasn't sufficient to just that.

No one is saying that what Christ did on the cross is insufficient. You have been told that, so instead of continuing to see what they say as insufficiency, why not consider that you simply do not understand what they are saying?

Here it is again:

1. Christ went to the cross to bear the punishment for the sins of his people. (Our sin imputed to him.)
2. He died, and was raised to life again.
3. He ascended back to the Father as victorious King and Priest governing and interceding for those he purchased with his blood.
4. In doing this he provided justification before God for his people.
5. The actual justification, their right standing before God, comes through faith. They are not actually justified until the Holy Spirit regenerates
them, draws them to Christ, places them in Christ through the gift of faith in his person and work, imputes his righteousness to them,
declares them justified.


The work FOR their justification was complete and sufficient when he said, "It is finished." His resurrection declared it to be so.

Now, where can you find in that, anything that indicates that his death was not sufficient for our justification?

 

[Arial]

Example a convicted criminal sets in his prison cell, and unbeknown to him, a legal advocate has secured his release from the Judge, the Judge declares him a free man, send him the good news, hence hours or days later a messenger reveals to him the good news of his release, he is a free man, justice has been served. Now that's the first he heard of it, and he experiences the enjoyment of it, he believes the good news. But that's not what set him free, as when he heard about it, no he was set free earlier by a skilled advocate on his behalf. I know its not the best illustration, but hopefully you see the point.

Aside from the fact that justice was not met in that scenario, unless the criminal was actually not guilty of the crime he was convicted of; he was also not set free as long as he was in prison. Provision was made for his freedom before he was released, his release was guaranteed, but he was not free until the warden opened the cell door and let him go.

That does not mean that what the advocate did on his behalf was insufficient.

 

[Arial]

Sir I dont really care if you dont agree with Gill, you have all the right in the world to disagree with Gill, and he with you if he were alive.

I am not a sir. And just to be clear, I did not make that statement of disagreeing with Gil for any reason other than I had previously said I agree with what he said, and I did not want anyone left with the impression that I think Christ was justified in the sense of needing to be justified before God. Only sinners are in need of that.

 

[brightfame52]

@Ladodgers6

Yes, absolutely Christ is the object of our Faith. The Gospel is the good news announcement of what Christ the God-Man accomplished for us. We get everything in Christ through Faith Alone.

Well did He accomplish Justification b4 God by His Death alone ? Thats what Pauls Gospel announced Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Our Justification is declared by the resurrection of Christ, isnt that good news ? It has to be true to be received by Faith. Not unless you believe ones Faith makes it true b4 God instead of Christs Finished accomplished work.

 

[brightfame52]

@Ladodgers6

Right, but without Faith Alone we cannot receive the righteousness that is freely given to those who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly apart from works and only by Faith Alone. Faith passively receives the free gift. This is why Paul makes juxtaposition between one who works and one who does not work but believes in Him and his promises.

yes but righteousness was imputed b4 we receive it by Faith into our mind and conscience, then our conscience is cleaned Acts 15:9

And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Faith receives a invisible spiritual reality Heb 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Our Justification b4 God exists but its not seen. Our Faith doesnt make it a reality, it receives it as a reality, Gods declaration in heaven based on Christs finished work. Don't you believe that ? I hope so

Amen, for only Christ can be our wisdom, righteousness and sanctification. But remember that he gives us his righteousness so we can be counted righteous before God the Father. And our sins are imputed to Christ so he can kill sin in His body and pay the price and penalty. Understand?

yeah I understand, but do you understand it. All that took place b4 I existed. When He sat down at the right hand of God, our sin penalty was gone Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

They gone sir, just as the Psalmist says Ps 79

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

So how pray tell is any elect sinner born with sin charged to them ? What sin or sins can be laid to the charge of Gods elect ? Christ has died and rose again for their Justification. Now if you believe God still charges their sins against them until they come to Faith, I believe that's incorrect and its a slight against Christ setting at the Right hand of God after purging them away.

Let me tackle this after I take a nap.

sweet dreams, and may God give you understanding of this solemn matter

 

[brightfame52]

@Arial

No one is saying that what Christ did on the cross is insufficient.

Not intentionally. But thats what it logically boils down to if we say the elect were not actually Justified b4 God when He died and rose again for our Justification Rom 4:25

You have been told that, so instead of continuing to see what they say as insufficiency, why not consider that you simply do not understand what they are saying?

Im going by what they are saying, and what you said sir. Did you not say clearly that His Death didnt Justify anyone ?

Lets see @Arial

But he did not justify us on the cross, he did the work necessary for us to be justified.

Thats what Im going by sir

 

[brightfame52]

Aside from the fact that justice was not met in that scenario, unless the criminal was actually not guilty of the crime he was convicted of; he was also not set free as long as he was in prison. Provision was made for his freedom before he was released, his release was guaranteed, but he was not free until the warden opened the cell door and let him go.

That does not mean that what the advocate did on his behalf was insufficient.

I see you still didnt get the point. He was legally set free by the Judge, the law had no mire claim on him fr his crimes, but he didnt come into the experiential knowledge of it until it was announced to him personally. Now if you cant see that, oh well, dont mean cant see it, and many others see it as well.

 

[brightfame52]

I am not a sir. And just to be clear, I did not make that statement of disagreeing with Gil for any reason other than I had previously said I agree with what he said, and I did not want anyone left with the impression that I think Christ was justified in the sense of needing to be justified before God. Only sinners are in need of that.

Okay. Nothing changes my view on what I believe

 

[Arial]

I see you still didnt get the point. He was legally set free by the Judge, the law had no mire claim on him fr his crimes, but he didnt come into the experiential knowledge of it until it was announced to him personally. Now if you cant see that, oh well, dont mean cant see it, and many others see it as well.

I am waiting for you to see what I have said and acknowledge the logic of it. If you plant an acorn, is the acorn a tree when you plant it? Or does it become a tree when it comes forth from the ground? Does the fact that it is just a seed when it is planted mean that it was not supplied with everything needed to become a tree? If it had not been supplied with sufficiency to become a tree, would it have become a tree?

I understand perfectly what you are saying which is why I have put forth the effort to show you that you cannot say someone is free before there free just because provision has been made for their freedom. Or that someone is already justified simply because the provision and guarantee for/of their justification has already been made. It is simple logic that I am sure you see clearly. Possibly the whole point is right fighting for the sake of argument?

That was enough times around the mulberry bush for me.