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Justification by Faith Alone

I am waiting for you to see what I have said and acknowledge the logic of it. If you plant an acorn, is the acorn a tree when you plant it? Or does it become a tree when it comes forth from the ground? Does the fact that it is just a seed when it is planted mean that it was not supplied with everything needed to become a tree? If it had not been supplied with sufficiency to become a tree, would it have become a tree?

I understand perfectly what you are saying which is why I have put forth the effort to show you that you cannot say someone is free before there free just because provision has been made for their freedom. Or that someone is already justified simply because the provision and guarantee for/of their justification has already been made. It is simple logic that I am sure you see clearly. Possibly the whole point is right fighting for the sake of argument?

That was enough times around the mulberry bush for me.
Okay we disagree and for the 100th time I have explained why. You said you understand perfectly what Im saying, so be it, you dont agree. So why are you waiting on me to give you some kinda reason why I believe the way I do. It makes no sense. I see no logic in what you are saying, and I told you why. I will never see your logic as to why the elect were not Justified b4 God at the Cross. If you are waiting for me to acknowledge that logic, you will be waiting until day of Judgment when then we will see things alike then ! BTW that you are not a sir has been duly noted !
 
But I believe Christ was Justified,

So God wrapped in flesh needed to be justified? By what/whom? And what sin are you accusing Him of that He needed justification?

Since Scriptures call Him both the Just and the Justifier, how is it logical then, if he also needed to have His sin attoned for (also known as being justified)?
 
Are you saying that when Jesus rose from the dead after dying for our offences, we were not Justified Rom 4:25 b4 God

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. Yes or No
He purchased our justification on the cross.

It is not however enacted until something happens.

the question is, What must happen in our life for the justification or forgiveness of sin, to take place?
 
@makesends



Dont tell me you have not been paying attention. I believe the scripture teaches that people Christ died for are Justified by His Death for them b4 they believe, or even b4 they are born sinners. If Christ died for their sins and put them away b4 they are born, why would they not be Justified from them b4 Gods law and Justice b4 they are born ? Do you agree with that ?
if this was true

no one needfs to come to christ and believe.

they are already saved.

and no one needs to reject God. because they are already condemned. it des not matter if they believe or not

Yet that is not what scripture says

it says he who believes is not condemned (they have been saved, born again, The things against them were removed being nailed to the cross. etc etc)

those who do not believe are condemned already (their status has never changed, they are still dead in trespasses and sin
 
My mind is made up,
I have asked you this multiple times in multiple chatrooms.

then why are you in a discussion chatroom? If your mind is made up and you can not be taught. then in reality, there is no need for you to be here. Go find others who share your view and celebrate and worship with them.

otherwise. you just appear proud. like you have everything, you do not need anything from us. but you feel you have to teach us because we do not have truth.

again, as said before. Your not going to win any friends or arguments with that attitude
 
the op is pretty long. can anyone give us the quick review of what was said?

as for justification.

Scripture makes it clear, it is by faith not works.. showing firsthand our trust in God is not a work of man. But a work of God which Jesus said in John 6

But justification is not by faith alone. I would render it is by grace alone.. But it is only applied when one comes to faith. when they look as the children of Israel looked to the bronze serpent, to the cross in faith.

it can be confusing at times.

the people in Moses day were saved before they look technically. God knew who they were. and he also knew who would not believe. yet the offer of salvation (from poison) was there for all.. not just those who God saved because they looked.
 
So God wrapped in flesh needed to be justified? By what/whom? And what sin are you accusing Him of that He needed justification?

Since Scriptures call Him both the Just and the Justifier, how is it logical then, if he also needed to have His sin attoned for (also known as being justified)?
Im shocked you asked a question like that friend, I thought you were more advanced in your understanding. Christ was Justified from the sins of the elect He had imputed to His Charge 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The sins of the elect legally became His by Imputation Isa 53:

5 ;But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Legally He was guilty for our sins. Now when He was put to death for them, paying the debt, His resurrection showed that He was Justified from the sins charged to Him, and not only Him, but the ones whose sins put Him to death are Justified together with Him.

Now do you understand why He is said to be Justified ? 1 Tim 3:16


16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 
He purchased our justification on the cross.

It is not however enacted until something happens.

the question is, What must happen in our life for the justification or forgiveness of sin, to take place?
I know what He did. Im testifying to it even now
 
@Eternally-Grateful

no one needfs to come to christ and believe.

False, its what they believe, that they were Justified by the blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what they must believe so they can render Praise and Thanksgiving to God
 
I know what He did. Im testifying to it even now

But you fail to testify what he said when he said the person is born again.

everyone here knows what he did.

it does not mean we are right in all our views concerning the subject
 
When He died for their sins. Duh
nope

if this was true. a person who does not believe would not be in a condemned state. they would already have been in a non condemned state, that jesus said hap[pen AFTER we believe
 
@Eternally-Grateful



False, its what they believe, that they were Justified by the blood of Christ Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Thats what they must believe so they can render Praise and Thanksgiving to God
well then they were not justified on the cross like you are claiming

You have a major contradiction here.


in one hand, your saying it happens here (the cross)

in the other breath your saying it happens when we have faith

both can not be right
 
I have spoken to you many many times, and you cant grasp a thing
again, Your arrogance just amazes me. Why people allow you to stay in chatrooms amazes me even more.

I grasp alot. I just do not see things the way you do. That in no way says I can not grasp the word.
 
well then they were not justified on the cross like you are claiming

You have a major contradiction here.


in one hand, your saying it happens here (the cross)

in the other breath your saying it happens when we have faith

both can not be right
When the elect believe, they believe what Jesus did at the cross saved them. He became their Saviour at the Cross, iit was there He purged away their sins and sat down having accomplished it Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Now I dont know what in the world you believed
 
again, Your arrogance just amazes me. Why people allow you to stay in chatrooms amazes me even more.

I grasp alot. I just do not see things the way you do. That in no way says I can not grasp the word.
You dont appear to grasp what Christ accomplished at the Cross ! Salvation/Justification. You seem to believe He only made an opportunity for Salvation/Justification, which is foreign to the scripture.
 
Im shocked you asked a question

Well I'm highly concerned you would say such a thing myself friend. It was a deeply deeply concerned set of questions.


Im shocked you asked a question like that friend, I thought you were more advanced in your understanding. Christ was Justified from the sins of the elect He had imputed to His Charge 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The sins of the elect legally became His by Imputation Isa 53:

5 ;But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Legally He was guilty for our sins. Now when He was put to death for them, paying the debt, His resurrection showed that He was Justified from the sins charged to Him, and not only Him, but the ones whose sins put Him to death are Justified together with Him.


Now do you understand why He is said to be Justified ? 1 Tim 3:16

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

I want to respond with clarity regarding your comment that Christ “needed to be justified from the sins of the elect.” I know you likely don’t mean to diminish His glory or imply any moral imperfection in Him—but I’m concerned the language used here, however unintentionally, suggests that.

Scripture is clear: Christ bore our sins legally, not morally. In 2 Corinthians 5:21, Paul writes, “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” That doesn’t mean Christ became sinful Himself. He was counted as sin—imputed with our guilt—while remaining completely righteous in Himself. This is the consistent witness of Scripture. Isaiah 53 says, “The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all,” and goes on to show that His chastisement secured our peace (v.5). Yet even in bearing our sin, He remained the spotless Lamb.

Hebrews 4:15 reminds us that He was “without sin.” To say He was “legally guilty” and needed justification risks implying that there was something within Christ that needed to be made right—which is simply not the case. If He were guilty, even legally in Himself, He could not have atoned for our guilt.

You referenced 1 Timothy 3:16, which says, “He was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit…” That phrase, “justified in the Spirit,” is understood to mean vindicated—that is, the Spirit confirmed and displayed His righteousness. The clearest way that happened was through His resurrection. Romans 4:25 affirms this: “He was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” His rising from the dead was the Father’s public declaration that the work was finished, the payment made, and the Son vindicated in glory. It doesn’t mean He needed justification Himself.

So, I’d ask: what exactly do you mean by “Christ needed to be justified”? If it’s just another way of saying He was vindicated, then we agree though I will posit that vindicated is the best word to use in English to express truth. But if you mean that He, in some real sense, had to be declared righteous after having moral guilt, then we’re stepping outside the bounds of biblical teaching. Christ never stopped being righteous. He took on our sin judicially in order to satisfy God’s justice, but that never changed who He was: holy, undefiled, and perfectly obedient.

Sinful people stay dead; only someone who was perfect could be declared innocent under the law and rise to life under His own power. John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Romans 5:18 says that His one act of righteousness leads to justification for many. That righteousness had to be perfect from beginning to end—or it would not justify anyone.

Friend, I’m confident you hold a high view of Christ and His saving work. I only raise this because I know you wouldn’t want to say anything—however unintentionally—that could be taken as lowering the glory of the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.

Looking forward to hearing more of how you’re understanding that phrase “justified in the Spirit.” There's an important distinction we should be making.

In Christ and for His glory,
Hazelelponi

[ @John Bauer , @makesends , any thoughts on Christ's vindication in the resurrection?]
 
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