Justification by Faith Alone

[makesends]

@makesends



Yes thats what it says, and I believe the ones He died for were by it[His death] Justified b4 God. Its equivalent imo to having been reconciled to God by His Death in the very next verse. Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now can one be reconciled to God by His Death and not be Justified by His death/blood ? I dont think so

You're all over the place here. What is your thesis you're trying to prove, after all?

 

[brightfame52]

You're all over the place here. What is your thesis you're trying to prove, after all?

I dont understand, its pretty simple. Those who Christ died for His death Justified them b4 God.

 

[Eleanor]

Unfortunately you cant see that the resurrection of Christ declares those He died for Justified b4 God. Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Thats why later in time at the Spirits application the Justified person is given Faith to see and embrace the Justification Christ has accomplished. So Justification by Faith in time is another way of saying Justified by Christ the object of Faith. If you cant see that, its not good imo.

See post #39.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Im not judging your salvation friend, however you seem to deny that Christs Death alone Justified them He died for, even b4 they were born and later believe.

Thank you for your thoughts, and no offense is taken.

While Christ’s death fully atoned for the sins of His people Rom. 5:9, this justification is applied through faith, which God graciously gifts (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 3:28). Before I believed, I stood under wrath John 3:36, but God’s covenant ensures faith for His elect John 6:37. Christ loses none the Father gives into His Hand John 6:39, securing us through faith to rest in His finished work Rom. 5:1. May we rejoice in this truth together?

Justification is a forensic act where God declares sinners righteous through faith alone, based on Christ’s atonement. While Christ’s death is the ground of justification (sufficient for the elect eternally), it is applied when the elect believe, not before. Here’s why:

• Romans 3:28 "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” Justification occurs through faith, not prior to it.
• Romans 5:1: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, for we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Faith is the means by which justification is received.
• Ephesians 2:8: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.” Faith, gifted by God, is essential for salvation’s application, including justification.
• John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” Before faith, the elect remain under wrath, not justified.
• Galatians 3:22: “The Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” The promise (including justification) is given to believers, not pre-faith.

 

[brightfame52]

See post #39.

I saw it and ? Doesnt change my opinion

 

[brightfame52]

Thank you for your thoughts, and no offense is taken.

While Christ’s death fully atoned for the sins of His people Rom. 5:9, this justification is applied through faith, which God graciously gifts (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 3:28). Before I believed, I stood under wrath John 3:36, but God’s covenant ensures faith for His elect John 6:37. Christ loses none the Father gives into His Hand John 6:39, securing us through faith to rest in His finished work Rom. 5:1. May we rejoice in this truth together?

Justification is a forensic act where God declares sinners righteous through faith alone, based on Christ’s atonement. While Christ’s death is the ground of justification (sufficient for the elect eternally), it is applied when the elect believe, not before. Here’s why:

• Romans 3:28 "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.” Justification occurs through faith, not prior to it.
• Romans 5:1: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, for we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” Faith is the means by which justification is received.
• Ephesians 2:8: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God.” Faith, gifted by God, is essential for salvation’s application, including justification.
• John 3:36: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” Before faith, the elect remain under wrath, not justified.
• Galatians 3:22: “The Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” The promise (including justification) is given to believers, not pre-faith.

You still seem to deny that Christs Death alone Justified them He died for, even b4 they were born and later believe.

 

[Arial]

So we believe because Christ has Justified us, Faith follows being Justified Rom 1:17

How can that be since we are justified through faith? Jesus did the work that provides for justification and it is in him that we are justified. In him, not through him. The justification comes with the union. The union is by grace and through faith. This faith in Christ and his work, is a gift of God, not of ourselves, therefore, not a work on our part. The Holy Spirit applies Jesus' work to us and that is when we believe and are justified.

 

[brightfame52]

How can that be since we are justified through faith? Jesus did the work that provides for justification and it is in him that we are justified. In him, not through him. The justification comes with the union. The union is by grace and through faith. This faith in Christ and his work, is a gift of God, not of ourselves, therefore, not a work on our part. The Holy Spirit applies Jesus' work to us and that is when we believe and are justified.

What do you mean how. Those who are Justified through faith, had been Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9 thats how. Those who were Justified by His Blood, that occurred way back at the Cross, b4 they were born. They are Justified by or through Faith after they are born sinners, then born again and given Faith to believe that Christ Justified them at the Cross by His Blood, thats how.

 

[Arial]

What do you mean how. Those who are Justified through faith, had been Justified by His Blood Rom 5:9 thats how. Those who were Justified by His Blood, that occurred way back at the Cross, b4 they were born. They are Justified by or through Faith after they are born sinners, then born again and given Faith to believe that Christ Justified them at the Cross by His Blood, thats how.

That is a very unclear way of saying something.

Yes the blood that justifies through faith was shed on the cross. But no one is actually in a state of justification before God until they are placed in Christ through faith. There can be a world of difference between "by" and "through" faith, and in this case it is of theological importance. And Romans 5:9 is not saying anything different than what I have said (and others).

If we are born sinners, as you correctly say, we were not justified before we were born. Our justification was guaranteed (for the elect) at the cross. Paul is writing to believers, those who have already been justified through faith, when he says "therefore, we have now been justified by his blood---" Notice the "now"?

 

[brightfame52]

@Arial

That is a very unclear way of saying something.

Okay, I tried.

 

[makesends]

Eleanor said:

All was decreed in God's eternal plan before the foundations of the world, including the justification (declaration of not guilty, sentence of acquittal) of believers.

And they occur in the order in time.

Unfortunately you cant see that the resurrection of Christ declares those He died for Justified b4 God. Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Thats why later in time at the Spirits application the Justified person is given Faith to see and embrace the Justification Christ has accomplished. So Justification by Faith in time is another way of saying Justified by Christ the object of Faith. If you cant see that, its not good imo.

I dont understand, its pretty simple. Those who Christ died for His death Justified them b4 God.

So where is the disagreement?

You still seem to deny that Christs Death alone Justified them He died for, even b4 they were born and later believe.

Christ's death alone? You seem to be able to hear only the sound of your voice. You yourself claim several different things on this one thread alone. Here, you say Christ's death alone justified them, but above you say that the resurrection declares them not guilty (which you add to by saying "Justified b4 God". Other places you claim justified through faith, and justified by his blood, justified BY faith and justified by Christ, and probably a few others.

Maybe I'm wrong —I haven't read through the thread— but I don't see anyone disagreeing that we are justified through Christ's death and resurrection, but that they have added several other things scripture says about it, which things you refuse to acknowledge, because you take them to disagree that Christ's death is part of our justification.

when @Eleanor says that "All was decreed in God's eternal plan before the foundations of the world, including the justification (declaration of not guilty, sentence of acquittal) of believers.", she also said, "and they occur in the order in time." How does that disagree with what you claim is your thesis? —i.e. "Those who Christ died for His death Justified them b4 God"

So the only real disagreement I can make out is that you want to place a temporal order on a logical ordo salutis. You seem to actually think that nobody was justified before the cross. But no matter when the cross happened in time, its effect was our justification by God's sayso, and those of the OT saints too. And none of that happens without our regeneration and faith. We could go on and on but this conversation has grown inane.

 

[brightfame52]

@makesends

So where is the disagreement?

Dont tell me you have not been paying attention. I believe the scripture teaches that people Christ died for are Justified by His Death for them b4 they believe, or even b4 they are born sinners. If Christ died for their sins and put them away b4 they are born, why would they not be Justified from them b4 Gods law and Justice b4 they are born ? Do you agree with that ?

 

[Hazelelponi]

You still seem to deny that Christs Death alone Justified them He died for, even b4 they were born and later believe.

Thank you for engaging with me. It seems that your view may be blending two distinct yet related realities: God’s eternal decree and its application in time. The pactum salutis—the pre-temporal covenant within the Godhead—secured the redemption of the elect through Christ’s atoning work (cf. Ephesians 1:4–5). That decree, like all of God’s purposes, is unchanging (cf. Isaiah 46:10).

Yet Scripture also makes it clear that justification is a forensic act applied in time, not before. It is received through faith, which God graciously gives (cf. Romans 3:28; Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8). While Christ’s death is the foundation of our justification, no one is actually declared righteous by God apart from union with Christ through faith. Before that union, even the elect remain under wrath (cf. John 3:36).

The distinction here is not between the power of Christ’s blood and faith, but between the eternal securing of redemption and the Spirit’s application of it in time. Justification is not merely a fact about the atonement, but a personal declaration made by God when one believes (cf. Galatians 3:22).

As to potential concerns about children, Scripture does teach that the children of believing parents are sanctified in a covenantal sense (cf. 1 Corinthians 7:14). This is a great comfort. At the same time, we trust that God grants faith to all His elect in His perfect timing. No one will appear before Him apart from the righteousness of Christ received through faith (cf. Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8). We rest in this, knowing that the Judge of all the earth will always do what is right (cf. Genesis 18:25).

May we all rejoice together in the sufficiency of Christ’s finished work, and in the grace by which He applies it to His people through the gift of faith.


Soli Deo Gloria.

 

[makesends]

@makesends



Dont tell me you have not been paying attention. I believe the scripture teaches that people Christ died for are Justified by His Death for them b4 they believe, or even b4 they are born sinners. If Christ died for their sins and put them away b4 they are born, why would they not be Justified from them b4 Gods law and Justice b4 they are born ? Do you agree with that ?

The Lamb appears slain from the foundation of the world. God declares (as @Eleanor told you) them justified by decree from the foundation of the world. It happens because of Christ's work on the cross, proven by his resurrection, without which God would not have declared them justified, by which I mean to say that they are imputed Christ's righteousness JUDICIALLY, besides having their actual sins taken upon him. WHEN in time Christ died is irrelevant to the question of WHETHER it is decreed from the beginning.

NOW, the elect, temporally unregenerate, is still 'on the road to Hell', his actual sins temporally unforgiven and Adam's imputed sins temporally still his guilt, until through faith he is justified because he believes. In my opinion, it is not even the person at conception, birth, regeneration, or even at the end of a long sanctification, that God spoke into existence, but the justified, forgiven, redeemed, sanctified and glorified person we will see in Heaven. And that is who we are, already, but not yet. You want to center it around the TIME of the event of Christ's sacrifice. I'm saying, the TIME of it is irrelevant to the Ordo Salutis. The FACT of it is what matters. The temporal sequence of events is a vapor, compared to the solid fact of God's Word.

 

[brightfame52]

Just as the elect were reconciled to God b4 they believed by the Death of Christ, also the equivalent is true as well, they were Justified b4 God before they believed by His Death Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Do you really believe one can be reconciled to God by His Death and yet not be Justified from all sin and be condemned at the same time ? The answer is NO its not possible, for sin not taken away separates from God

Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

 

[makesends]

Just as the elect were reconciled to God b4 they believed by the Death of Christ, also the equivalent is true as well, they were Justified b4 God before they believed by His Death Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Do you really believe one can be reconciled to God by His Death and yet not be Justified from all sin and be condemned at the same time ? The answer is NO its not possible, for sin not taken away separates from God

Isa 59:2

But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Still locked into the 'time' thing...

But, I'll give you this: If God was to show us the way it really is, we'd think we were both idiots.

 

[brightfame52]

@Hazelelponi

Yet Scripture also makes it clear that justification is a forensic act applied in time, not before. It is received through faith, which God graciously gives (cf. Romans 3:28; Romans 5:1; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8). While Christ’s death is the foundation of our justification, no one is actually declared righteous by God apart from union with Christ through faith. Before that union, even the elect remain under wrath (cf. John 3:36).

Christs Death literally occurred in 33 ad, at that time His Death Justified b4 God all the elect, from ot to end of the age. Now the elect dont receive a knowledge of it until they are born again of the Spirit, given Faith, and with that Faith they come into the Spiritual understanding and knowledge of the Justification given them by the death of Christ in the past at the Cross. Also the elect are never under the wrath of God, even when they are enemies/unbelievers, they have been reconciled to God by His death Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Its impossible to be reconciled to God as an unbelieving enemy and under Gods wrath as a unbelieving enemy at the same time. If you stick to your present conviction that the elect are under wrath b4 faith, you deny the reconciliation to God by His death.

 

[brightfame52]

@makesends

WHEN in time Christ died is irrelevant to the question of WHETHER it is decreed from the beginning.

Its not irrelevant, its the most important thing that ever happened in time, its when He actually paid the penalty of death for the sins of the elect, charged upon Him. Its never wise in my opinion to say the actual death of Christ in time is not relevant. Also Im advocating Justification at the Cross, even though I do believe in Justification from eternity, thats not my contention at this point. It was at the Cross the sins of the elect were canceled out against the Law Col 2:13-14

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
If you are saying the elect aren't forgiven at the Cross, something is wrong with that picture, Faith certainly testifies that the elects sins were forgiven at the Cross, even b4 they are born. All the sins they ever would be charged with are forgiven at the cross, past, present and future sins. Do you believe that ?

NOW, the elect, temporally unregenerate, is still 'on the road to Hell',

Absolutely false ! For what ? Sins that Christ died for ? being unregenerated ? The elect have never been on their way to hell, because they are born into this world as vessels of mercy, not vessels of wrath.

his actual sins temporally unforgiven and Adam's imputed sins temporally still his guilt, until through faith he is justified because he believes

false, impossible, so when were the elects sins and adams imputed to Christ and became His responsibility ? Were they His responsibility on the Tree ? If so, how was the elect still being held guilty for them at the same time ?

until through faith he is justified because he believes.

Sounds like you giving mans act of faith/believing credit for doing what Christ alone should have credit for doing. Im just saying. You saying the act of believing Justifies b4 God Im saying the Cross act of Christ does.

 

[brightfame52]

Still locked into the 'time' thing...

But, I'll give you this: If God was to show us the way it really is, we'd think we were both idiots.

Im locked in on the Death of Christ and what it did, accomplished, even b4 the elect person was born. As far as the time thing goes, you seem to believe the Cross is non existent to the Justifying of the elect until they appear in time and exercise faith. As Paul says Gal 6 14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

 

[makesends]

Im locked in on the Death of Christ and what it did, accomplished, even b4 the elect person was born. As far as the time thing goes, you seem to believe the Cross is non existent to the Justifying of the elect until they appear in time and exercise faith. As Paul says Gal 6 14

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

You can't amplify Scripture. It is true without your help.

I glory in the cross too. If not for that I would go insane with despair, I think. I haven't said it was not accomplished before the elect was born. I'm saying the elect is still dead in sin until he is regenerated. Yet, God spoke the whole business into fact at the foundation of the world.

If I was to follow your thinking, the elect sinner shouldn't feel guilty for his present sins, since, after all, they are already forgiven him —no? But 1 John 1:9 says that if you confess your sins, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven your sins. John 3:18 says those that don't believe are already condemned. It doesn't qualify whether that non-believer is born yet, nor if they are elect. As far as I'm concerned, ALL elect will indeed be in Heaven, but they are temporally under condemnation until God makes them alive, and justifies them. Were they justified at the cross? Certainly. Were they decreed justified before the foundation of the world? Yes.