Justification by Faith Alone

[Hazelelponi]

I’m extremely scientific.

While that's wonderful, this however is a topic where people are talking about the justification secured by Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection for His people, decreed in eternity past, and applied to the elect in time through means that God gives us as a gift - that means is faith.

Euclid's scientific thoughts are not on the radar. It's these things that can lose people in discussion when people are trying to understand what you're saying in the context of the thread topic.

What justification might be in science has no bearing on what justification is in the Christian faith. We get our theological word definitions from Scripture, since how Scripture uses the word explains the word in Scriptural contexts. For example from Berkhof's Systematic Theology:

The Hebrew term for “to justify” is hitsdik, which in the great majority of cases means “to declare judicially that one’s state is in harmony with the demands of the law, Ex. 23:7; Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23. [........] The piel tsiddek occasionally has the same meaning, Jer. 3:11; Ezek. 16:50,51.

The meaning of these words is therefore strictly forensic or legal. That this is the proper denotation of the word appears (a) from the terms placed in contrast with it, as, for instance “condemnation,” Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; (b) from the correlative terms placed in juxtaposition with it and which often imply a process of judgment, Gen. 18:25; Ps. 143:2; (c) from the equivalent expressions that are sometimes used, Gen. 15:6; Ps. 32:1,2; and (d) from the fact that a passage like Prov. 17:15 would yield an impossible sense, if the word meant "to make just.” The meaning would then be: He who morally improves the life of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord.

There are a couple of passages, however, in which the word means more than simply “to declare righteous,” namely, Isa. 53:11; Dan. 12:3. But even in these cases the sense is not “to make good or holy,” but rather “to alter the condition so that man can be considered righteous.

Source

What are your thoughts about our justification, as Scripture uses the term?

You earlier said you disagreed with the thread s opening post (OP) (am I understanding that position correctly?), which was simply a book recommendation if I recall. Did you read the free ebook the author of the OP linked to?

With what did you disagree in the book?

The Doctrine of Justification: An Outline of its History in the Church; And of Its Exposition From Scripture (eBook) | Monergism

by James Buchananin ePub, .mobi & .pdf formatsAN OUTLINE OF ITS HISTORY IN THE CHURCH; AND OF ITS EXPOSITION FROM SCRIPTURETHE History of the Doctrine, as it

www.monergism.com

 

[Homework]

While that's wonderful, this however is a topic where people are talking about the justification secured by Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection for His people, decreed in eternity past, and applied to the elect in time through means that God gives us as a gift - that means is faith.

Euclid's scientific thoughts are not on the radar. It's these things that can lose people in discussion when people are trying to understand what you're saying in the context of the thread topic.

What justification might be in science has no bearing on what justification is in the Christian faith. We get our theological word definitions from Scripture, since how Scripture uses the word explains the word in Scriptural contexts. For example from Berkhof's Systematic Theology:

The Hebrew term for “to justify” is hitsdik, which in the great majority of cases means “to declare judicially that one’s state is in harmony with the demands of the law, Ex. 23:7; Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23. [........] The piel tsiddek occasionally has the same meaning, Jer. 3:11; Ezek. 16:50,51.

The meaning of these words is therefore strictly forensic or legal. That this is the proper denotation of the word appears (a) from the terms placed in contrast with it, as, for instance “condemnation,” Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; (b) from the correlative terms placed in juxtaposition with it and which often imply a process of judgment, Gen. 18:25; Ps. 143:2; (c) from the equivalent expressions that are sometimes used, Gen. 15:6; Ps. 32:1,2; and (d) from the fact that a passage like Prov. 17:15 would yield an impossible sense, if the word meant "to make just.” The meaning would then be: He who morally improves the life of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord.

There are a couple of passages, however, in which the word means more than simply “to declare righteous,” namely, Isa. 53:11; Dan. 12:3. But even in these cases the sense is not “to make good or holy,” but rather “to alter the condition so that man can be considered righteous.

Source

What are your thoughts about our justification, as Scripture uses the term?

You earlier said you disagreed with the thread s opening post (OP), which was simply a book recommendation if I recall. Did you read the free ebook the author of the OP linked to?

With what did you disagree in the book?

The Doctrine of Justification: An Outline of its History in the Church; And of Its Exposition From Scripture (eBook) | Monergism

by James Buchananin ePub, .mobi & .pdf formatsAN OUTLINE OF ITS HISTORY IN THE CHURCH; AND OF ITS EXPOSITION FROM SCRIPTURETHE History of the Doctrine, as it

www.monergism.com

You’re speaking strictly metaphysically. And you can’t use Euclid or Aristotle? Interesting, other parts of the site go to some trouble to explain how you use Greek words, the language spoken by Euclid and Aristotle, as well as the rest of the philosophers. Where do you obtain your logic, or is your prayer meeting just an interpretation seminar, with dues paid members claiming credit for divine inspiration on the basis of roster inclusion? If you can’t do all of geometry that’s ok, I know it’s much more in depth in astronomy and gravitational reality than the simple tenth grade introit.

 

[makesends]

Please answer or not. Are the elect in your view born condemned by God, even while unconverted and dead in sin ?

Define "condemned" as you use it here. This is no court, or I would tell the judge, answering "yes" or "no" will not be telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". The accuser has to define his terms.

But, as I said, this is a deviation from the argument. A person is no more, and no less, under condemnation before or after the cross, but BECAUSE OF the cross, and BECAUSE OF God's decree. You need to undo that, to make your point.

 

[Hazelelponi]

You’re speaking strictly metaphysically. And you can’t use Euclid or Aristotle?

While I recognize that theological discourse sometimes intersects with metaphysical categories, my post was not grounded in speculative philosophy but in biblical theology—specifically, the doctrine of justification as revealed in Scripture.

While metaphysical terms may be employed to clarify certain truths, our concern here is not ontology in the abstract but the concrete, covenantal reality of how God justifies the ungodly through Christ (cf. Rom. 4:5). Scripture, not metaphysics, must frame our understanding of justification.

Interesting, other parts of the site go to some trouble to explain how you use Greek words, the language spoken by Euclid and Aristotle, as well as the rest of the philosophers.

It’s not that references to Euclid or Aristotle are inherently off-limits; rather, it’s a question of theological method.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone is not a philosophical postulate, but a revealed truth grounded in the gospel of Christ. While classical logic and philosophical categories can serve a role, they must always be subordinate to Sola Scriptura. Words like hitsdiq (הִצְדִּיק) and dikaioō (δικαιόω) carry forensic, covenantal weight in their biblical contexts—far removed from Greek metaphysical speculation or geometric precision.

We indeed benefit from studying biblical Greek, especially when discerning the theological contours of key terms. However, our appeal to Koine Greek is exegetical, not philosophical.

For example, when Paul uses dikaioō in Romans and Galatians, he does so within a Jewish legal and covenantal framework, not a Platonic or Aristotelian one. The goal is not to import Hellenistic categories but to rightly divide the Word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15)

"Where do you obtain your logic...?”

Logic, as a reflection of the divine mind, is a gracious gift of God. We affirm that God is not the author of confusion but of order (1 Cor. 14:33), and His revelation is consistent, non-contradictory, and clear.

However, theology does not originate from autonomous human reasoning but from divine revelation. Therefore, while we employ reason as a servant, not master, of Scripture, we must never invert that order. This is not an abandonment of logic, but an act of theological submission.

“Is your prayer meeting just an interpretation seminar…?”

Prayer and the ministry of the Word are not in competition. In fact, the church is called to both fervent prayer and faithful exposition. Interpretation is not the enemy of worship; rather, rightly handling Scripture is essential to praying in accordance with God’s will. True prayer flows from true theology, and both are undergirded by the Spirit working through the Word.

---

"If you can’t do all of geometry that’s ok…”

Indeed, geometry and other sciences have their place in God’s created order and can reflect His wisdom. But this thread concerns the justification of sinners by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus. This is not a mathematical proof or a theorem to be derived but a divine verdict, judicial in nature, and covenantal in scope. Justification is not about axioms and deductive systems; it is about God's mercy toward sinners through the imputed righteousness of Christ (Phil. 3:9).


In Summary:

Justification is a forensic act of God whereby He declares the sinner righteous solely on the basis of the righteousness of Christ imputed to them and received through faith alone (Rom. 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16). To redefine this doctrine in philosophical or speculative terms is to obscure the clarity and sufficiency of the gospel. Our commitment must remain firmly anchored in what God has spoken—not in what man has reasoned.

 

[brightfame52]

Define "condemned" as you use it here. This is no court, or I would tell the judge, answering "yes" or "no" will not be telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". The accuser has to define his terms.

But, as I said, this is a deviation from the argument. A person is no more, and no less, under condemnation before or after the cross, but BECAUSE OF the cross, and BECAUSE OF God's decree. You need to undo that, to make your point.

Im going to let it go, I have explained myself to you, you know what I mean. We just dont agree Anyone who believes that Justification b4 God doesnt take place until they believe, seems to me, they believe a persons act of believing Justified them b4 God, over and above the Blood of Christ did, which washed them from their sins, and Justified them Rom 5:9

Thats my take on it and Im not changing that. Now thats between them and God

 

[makesends]

Anyone who believes that Justification b4 God doesnt take place until they believe, seems to me, they believe a persons act of believing Justified them b4 God, over and above the Blood of Christ did, which washed them from their sins, and Justified them Rom 5:9

I have been going out of my way to show that it is not a question of when they are justified. So, I have not been saying "until they believe" at all. That has been my whole point! You demand that it center on the Cross—great! I agree it does! But your defining of how it does so minimizes the fact that justification is by (through) faith, and by God's decree, etc.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified before Faith and why !

Justified before believing and why ? Its so because, its by means of the act of another, that other is Christ Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now why are those Christ died for Justified or made Righteous before God before they believe ? Its because they were prior to condemned by the act of Adam, acting as their head and representative, and so when he sinned in that capacity [as their Head /Representative], God imputed condemnation upon all men that he did represent Rom 5:18a, for they [the all men] did not at that time have an actual existence, and so its not an act of theirs [personally] that resulted in the passing of Judgment of condemnation upon them.

Now it is true that the condemnation incurred as per Rom 5:18a by the sin of Adam does become sensibly realized when by the Spirit we are convinced of sin [sinnership], however we were condemned prior to being made sensible to it, by the act of another Adam ; AND so likewise, it is true that the Justification given us in Christ Our Head and Representative, is revealed to God given Faith, however we were Justified by the act of another [Christ] before the sensible realization of it is given though Faith !

Now Adam was a figure/type of Him that was to come [Christ] who came also in a Covenant Head/ Representative Capacity, and scripture tells us that by His act or doing or obedience [Vs 18], that all those He represented, the Judgment and sentence of God passed upon them because of it, is that they are made or declared Righteous and given Justification of life, and this as with the figure Adam, even before they He represented had any being or physical existence, Rom 5:18-19.

 

[EarlyActs]

amen and amen..

But even after then, it should still be in God. for everything,

every time we take a step of faith. God proves his trustworthiness.

Abraham got to the amount of faith he offered his son, KNOWING God would raise him from the dead (he trusted Gods promise)

I am not sure he would have done that in Gen 17 or as a new believer..

we have to grow. God proved himself to Abraham, because Abraham took steps of =faith

"It"? What is "it"?

 

[brightfame52]

For He justifieth the ungodly,

See God given Faith believes that God Justifies the ungody,

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and not to overlook He reconciled enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Then they were not believers when they were justified; but Christ justified enemies.

http://www.sovereignredeemerbooks.com/assets/pdf/samuel-richardson/divine-consolations.pdf

 

[brightfame52]

Justified before Faith and why ! 2

All for whom Christ died are Justified before Faith because they have been perfected forever before Faith ! Even though work mongers and those who reject Salvation by Grace through Faith alone, or Justification by Grace alone apart from believing Faith. Its True nevertheless because all for whom Christ died, or by His Offering alone, have been made perfect before God, and so perfectly Righteous. Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Which is all whom He died for Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering[Death] of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14

14 For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.AMP

14 By his one sacrifice he has forever set free from sin Justifed from the people he brings to God.CEV


Hebrews 10:14 (NLV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

14 And by one gift He has made perfect forever all those who are being set apart for God-like living.

Now, this Perfection of Righteousness, Justification is something that naturally those Christ died for cannot see [it's invisible], nor feel, nor logically reason, its not known nor understood to any of the natural faculties or senses; The Knowledge of it comes by Faith and the Power of God.

Now it does not matter how many scriptures one can round up against this Truth, the Fact still remains, those that Christ hath died for, by that Death / Offering, hath been perfected forever! And this while they are yet sinners and ungodly in themselves by nature.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"It"? What is "it"?

steps of faith

what are we talking about?

 

[Hazelelponi]

steps of faith

what are we talking about?

Justification by Grace through faith.

I made a chart on page 5, Quote:


My prayer is that it serves not to win a point but to foster understanding as we together seek to honor the truth of our Lord (Psalm 119:160).


Justification in God’s Redemptive Plan

Aspect	Description	Scripture
Eternal Decree	Before time began, God chose His elect and decreed their justification in Christ.	Ephesians 1:4–5 (ESV) Revelation 13:8 (ESV)
Accomplishment at the Cross	In 33 AD, Christ bore the elect’s sin, securing their redemption and satisfying divine justice.	Romans 5:9 (ESV) Colossians 2:14 (ESV)
Application in Time	In due time, the Spirit grants the elect faith, uniting them to Christ, at which point God declares them righteous.	Romans 5:1 (ESV) Ephesians 2:8 (ESV) John 3:36 (ESV)

Explanation:
Picture a king who declares a prisoner’s pardon even before the prisoner is born, then pays the ransom at a set moment, and finally sends a messenger to deliver the pardon. Similarly, in God’s eternal counsel (Ephesians 1:4–5), He decreed the justification of His elect. At the cross (Romans 5:9), Christ secured this by fully satisfying justice. Yet, justification is applied in time—when the Spirit grants faith (Romans 5:1), uniting the sinner to Christ (Galatians 2:16). Until that moment, though chosen, the elect remain “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3), but God's purpose ensures they will come to faith (John 6:37), and none will be lost (Romans 8:30).


This framework preserves sola fide, while exalting Christ as the sole ground of our justification (1 Corinthians 1:30). May this deepen our worship of the God who ordains, accomplishes, and applies salvation perfectly in His time—for His glory alone (Psalm 115:1).


Scripture References:

All verses are from the ESV, linked for your convenience:

• Ephesians 1:4–5 ESV: “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”
• Revelation 13:8 ESV: “and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.”
• Romans 5:9 ESV: “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
• Colossians 2:14 ESV: “by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”
• Romans 5:1 ESV: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
• Ephesians 2:8 ESV: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,”
• John 3:36 ESV: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
• Ephesians 2:3 ESV: “among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
• John 6:37 ESV: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”
• Romans 8:30 ESV: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
• John 19:30 ESV: “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
• Psalm 119:160 ESV: “The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.”
• Galatians 2:16 ESV: “yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
• 1 Corinthians 1:30 ESV: “And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,”
• Psalm 115:1 ESV: “Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!”

In Christ’s love,
Hazelelponi


Post link to page 5 in this thread.