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Justification by Faith Alone

I’m extremely scientific.

While that's wonderful, this however is a topic where people are talking about the justification secured by Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection for His people, decreed in eternity past, and applied to the elect in time through means that God gives us as a gift - that means is faith.

Euclid's scientific thoughts are not on the radar. It's these things that can lose people in discussion when people are trying to understand what you're saying in the context of the thread topic.

What justification might be in science has no bearing on what justification is in the Christian faith. We get our theological word definitions from Scripture, since how Scripture uses the word explains the word in Scriptural contexts. For example from Berkhof's Systematic Theology:

The Hebrew term for “to justify” is hitsdik, which in the great majority of cases means “to declare judicially that one’s state is in harmony with the demands of the law, Ex. 23:7; Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23. [........] The piel tsiddek occasionally has the same meaning, Jer. 3:11; Ezek. 16:50,51.

The meaning of these words is therefore strictly forensic or legal. That this is the proper denotation of the word appears (a) from the terms placed in contrast with it, as, for instance “condemnation,” Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; (b) from the correlative terms placed in juxtaposition with it and which often imply a process of judgment, Gen. 18:25; Ps. 143:2; (c) from the equivalent expressions that are sometimes used, Gen. 15:6; Ps. 32:1,2; and (d) from the fact that a passage like Prov. 17:15 would yield an impossible sense, if the word meant "to make just.” The meaning would then be: He who morally improves the life of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord.

There are a couple of passages, however, in which the word means more than simply “to declare righteous,” namely, Isa. 53:11; Dan. 12:3. But even in these cases the sense is not “to make good or holy,” but rather “to alter the condition so that man can be considered righteous.


Source

What are your thoughts about our justification, as Scripture uses the term?

You earlier said you disagreed with the thread s opening post (OP) (am I understanding that position correctly?), which was simply a book recommendation if I recall. Did you read the free ebook the author of the OP linked to?

With what did you disagree in the book?

 
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While that's wonderful, this however is a topic where people are talking about the justification secured by Jesus Christ in His death and resurrection for His people, decreed in eternity past, and applied to the elect in time through means that God gives us as a gift - that means is faith.

Euclid's scientific thoughts are not on the radar. It's these things that can lose people in discussion when people are trying to understand what you're saying in the context of the thread topic.

What justification might be in science has no bearing on what justification is in the Christian faith. We get our theological word definitions from Scripture, since how Scripture uses the word explains the word in Scriptural contexts. For example from Berkhof's Systematic Theology:

The Hebrew term for “to justify” is hitsdik, which in the great majority of cases means “to declare judicially that one’s state is in harmony with the demands of the law, Ex. 23:7; Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23. [........] The piel tsiddek occasionally has the same meaning, Jer. 3:11; Ezek. 16:50,51.

The meaning of these words is therefore strictly forensic or legal. That this is the proper denotation of the word appears (a) from the terms placed in contrast with it, as, for instance “condemnation,” Deut. 25:1; Prov. 17:15; Isa. 5:23; (b) from the correlative terms placed in juxtaposition with it and which often imply a process of judgment, Gen. 18:25; Ps. 143:2; (c) from the equivalent expressions that are sometimes used, Gen. 15:6; Ps. 32:1,2; and (d) from the fact that a passage like Prov. 17:15 would yield an impossible sense, if the word meant "to make just.” The meaning would then be: He who morally improves the life of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord.

There are a couple of passages, however, in which the word means more than simply “to declare righteous,” namely, Isa. 53:11; Dan. 12:3. But even in these cases the sense is not “to make good or holy,” but rather “to alter the condition so that man can be considered righteous.


Source

What are your thoughts about our justification, as Scripture uses the term?

You earlier said you disagreed with the thread s opening post (OP), which was simply a book recommendation if I recall. Did you read the free ebook the author of the OP linked to?

With what did you disagree in the book?

You’re speaking strictly metaphysically. And you can’t use Euclid or Aristotle? Interesting, other parts of the site go to some trouble to explain how you use Greek words, the language spoken by Euclid and Aristotle, as well as the rest of the philosophers. Where do you obtain your logic, or is your prayer meeting just an interpretation seminar, with dues paid members claiming credit for divine inspiration on the basis of roster inclusion? If you can’t do all of geometry that’s ok, I know it’s much more in depth in astronomy and gravitational reality than the simple tenth grade introit.
 
Please answer or not. Are the elect in your view born condemned by God, even while unconverted and dead in sin ?
Define "condemned" as you use it here. This is no court, or I would tell the judge, answering "yes" or "no" will not be telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". The accuser has to define his terms.

But, as I said, this is a deviation from the argument. A person is no more, and no less, under condemnation before or after the cross, but BECAUSE OF the cross, and BECAUSE OF God's decree. You need to undo that, to make your point.
 
You’re speaking strictly metaphysically. And you can’t use Euclid or Aristotle?

While I recognize that theological discourse sometimes intersects with metaphysical categories, my post was not grounded in speculative philosophy but in biblical theology—specifically, the doctrine of justification as revealed in Scripture.

While metaphysical terms may be employed to clarify certain truths, our concern here is not ontology in the abstract but the concrete, covenantal reality of how God justifies the ungodly through Christ (cf. Rom. 4:5). Scripture, not metaphysics, must frame our understanding of justification.


Interesting, other parts of the site go to some trouble to explain how you use Greek words, the language spoken by Euclid and Aristotle, as well as the rest of the philosophers.


It’s not that references to Euclid or Aristotle are inherently off-limits; rather, it’s a question of theological method.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone is not a philosophical postulate, but a revealed truth grounded in the gospel of Christ. While classical logic and philosophical categories can serve a role, they must always be subordinate to Sola Scriptura. Words like hitsdiq (הִצְדִּיק) and dikaioō (δικαιόω) carry forensic, covenantal weight in their biblical contexts—far removed from Greek metaphysical speculation or geometric precision.

We indeed benefit from studying biblical Greek, especially when discerning the theological contours of key terms. However, our appeal to Koine Greek is exegetical, not philosophical.

For example, when Paul uses dikaioō in Romans and Galatians, he does so within a Jewish legal and covenantal framework, not a Platonic or Aristotelian one. The goal is not to import Hellenistic categories but to rightly divide the Word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15)


"Where do you obtain your logic...?”


Logic, as a reflection of the divine mind, is a gracious gift of God. We affirm that God is not the author of confusion but of order (1 Cor. 14:33), and His revelation is consistent, non-contradictory, and clear.

However, theology does not originate from autonomous human reasoning but from divine revelation. Therefore, while we employ reason as a servant, not master, of Scripture, we must never invert that order. This is not an abandonment of logic, but an act of theological submission.


“Is your prayer meeting just an interpretation seminar…?”


Prayer and the ministry of the Word are not in competition. In fact, the church is called to both fervent prayer and faithful exposition. Interpretation is not the enemy of worship; rather, rightly handling Scripture is essential to praying in accordance with God’s will. True prayer flows from true theology, and both are undergirded by the Spirit working through the Word.



"If you can’t do all of geometry that’s ok…”


Indeed, geometry and other sciences have their place in God’s created order and can reflect His wisdom. But this thread concerns the justification of sinners by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus. This is not a mathematical proof or a theorem to be derived but a divine verdict, judicial in nature, and covenantal in scope. Justification is not about axioms and deductive systems; it is about God's mercy toward sinners through the imputed righteousness of Christ (Phil. 3:9).


In Summary:

Justification is a forensic act of God whereby He declares the sinner righteous solely on the basis of the righteousness of Christ imputed to them and received through faith alone (Rom. 4:5; 5:1; Gal. 2:16). To redefine this doctrine in philosophical or speculative terms is to obscure the clarity and sufficiency of the gospel. Our commitment must remain firmly anchored in what God has spoken—not in what man has reasoned.
 
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Define "condemned" as you use it here. This is no court, or I would tell the judge, answering "yes" or "no" will not be telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". The accuser has to define his terms.

But, as I said, this is a deviation from the argument. A person is no more, and no less, under condemnation before or after the cross, but BECAUSE OF the cross, and BECAUSE OF God's decree. You need to undo that, to make your point.
Im going to let it go, I have explained myself to you, you know what I mean. We just dont agree Anyone who believes that Justification b4 God doesnt take place until they believe, seems to me, they believe a persons act of believing Justified them b4 God, over and above the Blood of Christ did, which washed them from their sins, and Justified them Rom 5:9

Thats my take on it and Im not changing that. Now thats between them and God
 
Anyone who believes that Justification b4 God doesnt take place until they believe, seems to me, they believe a persons act of believing Justified them b4 God, over and above the Blood of Christ did, which washed them from their sins, and Justified them Rom 5:9
I have been going out of my way to show that it is not a question of when they are justified. So, I have not been saying "until they believe" at all. That has been my whole point! You demand that it center on the Cross—great! I agree it does! But your defining of how it does so minimizes the fact that justification is by (through) faith, and by God's decree, etc.
 
Justified before Faith and why !

Justified before believing and why ? Its so because, its by means of the act of another, that other is Christ Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Now why are those Christ died for Justified or made Righteous before God before they believe ? Its because they were prior to condemned by the act of Adam, acting as their head and representative, and so when he sinned in that capacity [as their Head /Representative], God imputed condemnation upon all men that he did represent Rom 5:18a, for they [the all men] did not at that time have an actual existence, and so its not an act of theirs [personally] that resulted in the passing of Judgment of condemnation upon them.

Now it is true that the condemnation incurred as per Rom 5:18a by the sin of Adam does become sensibly realized when by the Spirit we are convinced of sin [sinnership], however we were condemned prior to being made sensible to it, by the act of another Adam ; AND so likewise, it is true that the Justification given us in Christ Our Head and Representative, is revealed to God given Faith, however we were Justified by the act of another [Christ] before the sensible realization of it is given though Faith !

Now Adam was a figure/type of Him that was to come [Christ] who came also in a Covenant Head/ Representative Capacity, and scripture tells us that by His act or doing or obedience [Vs 18], that all those He represented, the Judgment and sentence of God passed upon them because of it, is that they are made or declared Righteous and given Justification of life, and this as with the figure Adam, even before they He represented had any being or physical existence, Rom 5:18-19.
 
amen and amen..

But even after then, it should still be in God. for everything,

every time we take a step of faith. God proves his trustworthiness.

Abraham got to the amount of faith he offered his son, KNOWING God would raise him from the dead (he trusted Gods promise)

I am not sure he would have done that in Gen 17 or as a new believer..

we have to grow. God proved himself to Abraham, because Abraham took steps of =faith

"It"? What is "it"?
 
For He justifieth the ungodly,

See God given Faith believes that God Justifies the ungody,

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

and not to overlook He reconciled enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Then they were not believers when they were justified; but Christ justified enemies.

 
Justified before Faith and why ! 2

All for whom Christ died are Justified before Faith because they have been perfected forever before Faith ! Even though work mongers and those who reject Salvation by Grace through Faith alone, or Justification by Grace alone apart from believing Faith. Its True nevertheless because all for whom Christ died, or by His Offering alone, have been made perfect before God, and so perfectly Righteous. Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Which is all whom He died for Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering[Death] of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10:14

14 For by a single offering He has forever completely cleansed and perfected those who are consecrated and made holy.AMP

14 By his one sacrifice he has forever set free from sin Justifed from the people he brings to God.CEV


Hebrews 10:14 (NLV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

14 And by one gift He has made perfect forever all those who are being set apart for God-like living.

Now, this Perfection of Righteousness, Justification is something that naturally those Christ died for cannot see [it's invisible], nor feel, nor logically reason, its not known nor understood to any of the natural faculties or senses; The Knowledge of it comes by Faith and the Power of God.

Now it does not matter how many scriptures one can round up against this Truth, the Fact still remains, those that Christ hath died for, by that Death / Offering, hath been perfected forever! And this while they are yet sinners and ungodly in themselves by nature.
 
steps of faith

what are we talking about?

Justification by Grace through faith.

I made a chart on page 5, Quote:


My prayer is that it serves not to win a point but to foster understanding as we together seek to honor the truth of our Lord (Psalm 119:160).


Justification in God’s Redemptive Plan


AspectDescriptionScripture
Eternal DecreeBefore time began, God chose His elect and decreed their justification in Christ.Ephesians 1:4–5 (ESV)
Revelation 13:8 (ESV)
Accomplishment at the CrossIn 33 AD, Christ bore the elect’s sin, securing their redemption and satisfying divine justice.Romans 5:9 (ESV)
Colossians 2:14 (ESV)
Application in TimeIn due time, the Spirit grants the elect faith, uniting them to Christ, at which point God declares them righteous.Romans 5:1 (ESV)
Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)
John 3:36 (ESV)


Explanation:
Picture a king who declares a prisoner’s pardon even before the prisoner is born, then pays the ransom at a set moment, and finally sends a messenger to deliver the pardon. Similarly, in God’s eternal counsel (Ephesians 1:4–5), He decreed the justification of His elect. At the cross (Romans 5:9), Christ secured this by fully satisfying justice. Yet, justification is applied in time—when the Spirit grants faith (Romans 5:1), uniting the sinner to Christ (Galatians 2:16). Until that moment, though chosen, the elect remain “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3), but God's purpose ensures they will come to faith (John 6:37), and none will be lost (Romans 8:30).


This framework preserves sola fide, while exalting Christ as the sole ground of our justification (1 Corinthians 1:30). May this deepen our worship of the God who ordains, accomplishes, and applies salvation perfectly in His time—for His glory alone (Psalm 115:1).


Scripture References:

All verses are from the ESV, linked for your convenience:
  • Ephesians 1:4–5 ESV: “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”
  • Revelation 13:8 ESV: “and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.”
  • Romans 5:9 ESV: “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
  • Colossians 2:14 ESV: “by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”
  • Romans 5:1 ESV: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
  • Ephesians 2:8 ESV: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,”
  • John 3:36 ESV: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
  • Ephesians 2:3 ESV: “among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
  • John 6:37 ESV: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”
  • Romans 8:30 ESV: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
  • John 19:30 ESV: “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
  • Psalm 119:160 ESV: “The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.”
  • Galatians 2:16 ESV: “yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
  • 1 Corinthians 1:30 ESV: “And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,”
  • Psalm 115:1 ESV: “Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!”

In Christ’s love,
Hazelelponi



Post link to page 5 in this thread.
 
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Justification by Grace through faith.

I made a chart on page 5, Quote:


My prayer is that it serves not to win a point but to foster understanding as we together seek to honor the truth of our Lord (Psalm 119:160).


Justification in God’s Redemptive Plan


AspectDescriptionScripture
Eternal DecreeBefore time began, God chose His elect and decreed their justification in Christ.Ephesians 1:4–5 (ESV)
Revelation 13:8 (ESV)
Accomplishment at the CrossIn 33 AD, Christ bore the elect’s sin, securing their redemption and satisfying divine justice.Romans 5:9 (ESV)
Colossians 2:14 (ESV)
Application in TimeIn due time, the Spirit grants the elect faith, uniting them to Christ, at which point God declares them righteous.Romans 5:1 (ESV)
Ephesians 2:8 (ESV)
John 3:36 (ESV)


Explanation:
Picture a king who declares a prisoner’s pardon even before the prisoner is born, then pays the ransom at a set moment, and finally sends a messenger to deliver the pardon. Similarly, in God’s eternal counsel (Ephesians 1:4–5), He decreed the justification of His elect. At the cross (Romans 5:9), Christ secured this by fully satisfying justice. Yet, justification is applied in time—when the Spirit grants faith (Romans 5:1), uniting the sinner to Christ (Galatians 2:16). Until that moment, though chosen, the elect remain “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3), but God's purpose ensures they will come to faith (John 6:37), and none will be lost (Romans 8:30).


This framework preserves sola fide, while exalting Christ as the sole ground of our justification (1 Corinthians 1:30). May this deepen our worship of the God who ordains, accomplishes, and applies salvation perfectly in His time—for His glory alone (Psalm 115:1).


Scripture References:

All verses are from the ESV, linked for your convenience:
  • Ephesians 1:4–5 ESV: “even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,”
  • Revelation 13:8 ESV: “and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.”
  • Romans 5:9 ESV: “Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.”
  • Colossians 2:14 ESV: “by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.”
  • Romans 5:1 ESV: “Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
  • Ephesians 2:8 ESV: “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,”
  • John 3:36 ESV: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”
  • Ephesians 2:3 ESV: “among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.”
  • John 6:37 ESV: “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.”
  • Romans 8:30 ESV: “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
  • John 19:30 ESV: “When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, ‘It is finished,’ and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.”
  • Psalm 119:160 ESV: “The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.”
  • Galatians 2:16 ESV: “yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”
  • 1 Corinthians 1:30 ESV: “And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption,”
  • Psalm 115:1 ESV: “Not to us, O Lord, not to us, but to your name give glory, for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!”

In Christ’s love,
Hazelelponi



Post link to page 5 in this thread.
thank you for sharing.

If I may, give a differing view

a loving God creating mankind. known they would rebel and turn from him.

But God created them anyway, to prove his love through all eternity. and prevent any rebellion (from angels or mankind) from ever happening again.

He decreed before time began, he not only would create man anyway. He would also prove his love offering them a solution

He decreed that anyone who took him up on his offer would be restored to him.

He did all he could to show his creation what he would do. and how they could be restored. He showed great mercy and love. holding back giving them what they deserved.

In the future. he sent his son, to those who would turn him over to death, and crying out forgive them father they know not what they do.

In this he fulfilled the type of the bronze serpent. a symbol which is bore today by the medical profession. (although two serpents are used) to signify hope and rescue and healing.

that anyone who seeks out this healing. By looking to the serpent. He would be saved. (God provided the sacrifice, offering himself. All he asks us to do is look in faith)

he who believes is not condemned,

he who does not believe is condemned already

but who is to blame? God or man?

no one who will be cast to hell will have an excuse. God loved them to. to the point of death. He did not reject them, they rejected him.

God is vindicated.
 
thank you for sharing.

If I may, give a differing view

a loving God creating mankind. known they would rebel and turn from him.

But God created them anyway, to prove his love through all eternity. and prevent any rebellion (from angels or mankind) from ever happening again.

He decreed before time began, he not only would create man anyway. He would also prove his love offering them a solution

He decreed that anyone who took him up on his offer would be restored to him.

He did all he could to show his creation what he would do. and how they could be restored. He showed great mercy and love. holding back giving them what they deserved.

In the future. he sent his son, to those who would turn him over to death, and crying out forgive them father they know not what they do.

In this he fulfilled the type of the bronze serpent. a symbol which is bore today by the medical profession. (although two serpents are used) to signify hope and rescue and healing.

that anyone who seeks out this healing. By looking to the serpent. He would be saved. (God provided the sacrifice, offering himself. All he asks us to do is look in faith)

he who believes is not condemned,

he who does not believe is condemned already

but who is to blame? God or man?

no one who will be cast to hell will have an excuse. God loved them to. to the point of death. He did not reject them, they rejected him.

God is vindicated.


Where's it worded like that in Scripture? Would you expound?

To be clear, I affirm Christ's love of the Church, but I would like to know exactly how you arrive at that specific interpretation from Scripture.
 
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Where's it worded like that in Scripture? Would you expound?

To be clear, I affirm Christ's love of the Church, but I would like to know exactly how you arrive at that specific interpretation from Scripture.
I see it as the story of the bible. From beginning to end.

but to share a few thoughts from the words of Jesus and paul

John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (His own rejected him, But those who did recieve him, he gave the right..)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (Believe, look to the cross will never perish. are born again, this new life being forever. )

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” Jesus said, ask, and he will give us living water which will flow forever (we will never thirst again) ..

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (Hear and believe)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (come to me, in faith will never hunger or thirst)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (again, come to me, will never be lost, will be raised, has et4ernal life and will be raised)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (Eat/Believe - has eternal life. will not die, will live forever.)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word)


EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. (hear the word. Trust (faith comes by hearing) given the seal of the spirit because we trusted the word)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (we can not save ourselves. It is by grace. but it is through faith. God does not force it on us.. )

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN faith and works are separated. proving again faith is not a work. )

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (Grace is recieved through faith)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (this same righteousness imputed to abraham will be imputed to us. Who have faith)

the question is, does this offer go to all the world. Or only a select few? It seems Odd that both Jesus and paul speek of what we are to do to recieve all these things which Christ paid in full and offered us. If we do not have to act in faith and come to him and receive him.

second

What did Jesus say in John 3.

He who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already

where does sin come in? If sin condemns us, why are they judged because of lack of faith and not sin?

Look at the great white throne. are they judged because of sin. or because of works.

Remember jesus says they come and profess of their great works. And Jesus tells them to depart.

why? They never repented and came to faith.

it would take alot to really get deeper into this.. I answered last night quickly. so probably get into great detail. if you have specific questions. Please ask.. This is deep stuff
 
Faith/Believing doesnt save one or Justifies one b4 God, but only believes that Christ has done so !

In his masterpiece argument William Eyre writes:

argument 11: If Christ saves us, {II Tim.1:9,} believing doth not save us; if we be reconciled by Jesus Christ, {II Cor.5:18,} believing doth not reconcile us; if Christ takes away the sins of the world, {Jn.1:29,}believing takes away no sin; if we are justified by his blood,{Rom.5:9,} then not by believing; if we are reconciled to God by the death of his Son, {Rom.5:10,} then not by believing; if Christ hath delivered us from the wrath to come, {I Thes.1:10,} then believing doth not deliver us from wrath; if he hath delivered us from the curse, {Gal.3:13,} then believing delivereth us not from the curse; if Christ hath made me free, {Gal.5:1,} believing maketh not me free; if our sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake, {Eph.4:32,} then not for my sake, nor for believing; if men are Christ’s sheep before they believe,{Jn.10:26,} then believing doth not make them his sheep; if men are of God before they hear, {Jn.8:47,} then before they believe; if Christ hath washed us from our sins, {Rev.1:5,} believing doth not do it; if we were pulled out of the pit of destruction by the blood of the Covenant, {Zech.9:11,} then not for, nor by our 77 believing; if the blood of Christ cleanseth from all sin, {I Jn.1:7,} believing cleanseth from no sin http://www.supralapsarian.com/pdf/eyre-justification.pdf
 
Faith/Believing doesnt save one or Justifies one b4 God, but only believes that Christ has done so !

We are justified by faith

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

we not only have been justified by faith. this justification is why we have peace with God

Romans 5:1

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,


message to jews.. Its not the law which justifies, Its faith for those who believe

Galatians 2:16
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

again to the jew. The law was given to them as a tutor. to lead them to christ, so they may be justified BY faith


Galatians 3:24
Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
 
It’s obvious you do not listen to people. Then again!!!
 
I see it as the story of the bible. From beginning to end.

Thank you for your thoughtful response and for sharing your perspective on justification by grace through faith. I appreciate your passion for Scripture and your view that the Bible tells one unified story of God’s redemptive plan from beginning to end. I’m glad we agree on this! Let me address your points and questions, seeking to clarify where our interpretations align or differ, always aiming to honor the truth of God’s Word.

I do apologize for the extra time my response has taken, I am rather unfocused this last week (wars can be distracting) and I apologize for it as it brought to bear on our conversation. I willl attempt to be more focused and provide faster response times in the future.


John 1: 11: 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (His own rejected him, But those who did recieve him, he gave the right..)

You cite John 1:11–12, emphasizing that “as many as have received him” are given the right to become children of God. However, your rendering of the text deviates from Scripture. The accurate translation is:

“He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:11–13, ESV)

This passage shows that we “receive” Christ through faith, a core Reformed doctrine of salvation by grace through faith. Crucially, verse 13 clarifies that this faith is not of human origin—“not of the will of man, but of God.” Even the “natural children” (Israel) are not God’s children until adopted into the New Covenant through faith, which is provided by God alone. This underscores that faith is a divine gift, not a human initiative (Ephesians 2:8).


John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already

You cite John 3:16–18, emphasizing “whoever believes” is not condemned, while those who do not believe are “condemned already.” but your rendering again paraphrases the text, so here’s the accurate translation:

John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." (ESV)

I agree that unbelief is the proximate cause of final condemnation, as it rejects the only remedy for sin—Christ’s righteousness (John 16:8–9; Romans 10:3). However, your view seems to imply that salvation is a universal offer that humans accept through their own initiative. Scripture however, teaches that the gospel is preached to all (Matthew 28:19), but it is effectual only for the elect, whom God draws (John 6:37: “All that the Father gives me will come to me”). John 6:44 reinforces this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.” Faith is the means by which God applies justification, not the cause of it (Romans 5:9; Galatians 2:16).


(Believe, look to the cross will never perish. are born again, this new life being forever. )

You liken faith to looking at the bronze serpent (Numbers 21:8–9; John 3:14–15), suggesting that “anyone who seeks out this healing” by looking in faith is saved. I agree that this analogy beautifully illustrates salvation through Christ. However, it underscores God’s initiative: God provided the serpent, commanded the Israelites to look, and enabled their response.

Not everyone looked, despite the innate human instinct to survive, because not all were enabled by God’s grace. Similarly, faith in Christ is a gift (Philippians 1:29), given to the elect, who then look to Him in faith and live. If faith were a human initiative, why didn’t everyone look at the serpent, especially after witnessing its healing effects? This shows that even the act of “looking” is a response rooted in divine grace, not a self-generated act.

You didn’t directly address John 6:28–29, but I raised it in my previous post, and it’s worth revisiting. When the crowd asks, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus replies, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (John 6:28–29, ESV). If belief were a human initiative, Jesus would have said, “You must believe,” but He attributes faith to God’s work. We know Christ because God reveals Him to us (Matthew 16:16–17), not because we are wiser or make better choices than others. Without divine revelation, we would remain lost (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Scripture repeatedly teaches that true knowledge of Christ as the Son of God requires divine revelation. For example, Jesus tells Peter, “This was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven” (Matthew 16:17). Similarly, Paul’s faith came “by revelation from Jesus Christ” (Galatians 1:12; cf. John 6:44–45; 1 Corinthians 2:10–14). This keeps us humble, grounding our faith in God’s initiative, not our effort (1 Corinthians 4:7).

the question is, does this offer go to all the world. Or only a select few? It seems Odd that both Jesus and paul speek of what we are to do to recieve all these things which Christ paid in full and offered us. If we do not have to act in faith and come to him and receive him.

I’m grateful for your zeal for God’s Word. However, Scripture teaches that faith is a divine gift, ensuring that salvation is entirely of God’s grace (1 Corinthians 1:30). The gospel is preached to all, but it is effectual only for the elect, whom God draws to Christ (John 6:37). We don’t boast in our faith but praise God for revealing Christ to us (2 Corinthians 4:6). Salvation is by God’s grace, not man’s effort, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:9)



You asked:

where does sin come in? If sin condemns us, why are they judged because of lack of faith and not sin?

Look at the great white throne. are they judged because of sin. or because of works.

Remember jesus says they come and profess of their great works. And Jesus tells them to depart.

why? They never repented and came to faith.

it would take alot to really get deeper into this.. I answered last night quickly. so probably get into great detail. if you have specific questions. Please ask.. This is deep stuff

You ask why unbelievers are judged for lack of faith rather than sin (John 3:18) and whether the Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20:11–15) is based on works or faith.

Sin is the root cause of condemnation (Romans 3:23; 5:12), incurring God’s wrath (Ephesians 2:3). Unbelief seals final condemnation by rejecting Christ’s righteousness (John 16:8–9; Hebrews 2:3).

At the Great White Throne, the unsaved are judged “according to their works” (Revelation 20:12), which reflect their lack of saving faith, as true faith produces good works (James 2:17). In Matthew 7:22–23, those boasting of “great works” are rejected for lacking faith in Christ’s righteousness (Romans 10:3).

In Christ's unfailing love,
Hazelelponi
 
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