It is by faith and good works that one confirms his calling and election.

[jeremiah1five]

Philosophy. Logic from the human POV.

But this is OT. Let's start a new thread on it... Link me to it, if you do, so I don't miss it.

I've fallen short of the glory of makesends.
I don't know how to link.

 

[makesends]

I've fallen short of the glory of makesends.
I don't know how to link.

Haha!! Good one!

Well, if you've started a thread on it, I'd like to participate. What's the name of it?

 

[Agra Man]

Satan, like any other creature, is unable to create anything. Sin is not a creation. It is only a privation of Good. It does not "exist" in the sense that God's creations exist.

Sin is from his creation not because sin itself was created by his creation but it is of creation because satan brought sin into the world.

 

[Agra Man]

Exactly.
"I the LORD do all these things."

Exactly.
But there is no darkness in Him at all.
It lies in creation.

The devil has no creative powers. Those are the Attributes of God.
You give the devil too much glory.

Among other things.

Again, Satan does not have creative powers being created himself.

Perhaps create is not the right the word he manipluates created things but the darkness and evil God creates is not the same as what satan does.

So yes you may be right about God creating evil and darkness but it is not the kind satan has that is what the difference is.

And also I do not give satan glory and that is uncalled for

 

[jeremiah1five]

Haha!! Good one!

Well, if you've started a thread on it, I'd like to participate. What's the name of it?

What subject?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Perhaps create is not the right the word he manipluates created things but the darkness and evil God creates is not the same as what satan does.

So yes you may be right about God creating evil and darkness but it is not the kind satan has that is what the difference is.

And also I do not give satan glory and that is uncalled for

There is no Satan [adversary] except what's in man.
Man is Satan [adversary.]
All the angels are locked up in chains of darkness to await judgment day.

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Pe 2:4.

"The angels that sinned" means all one-third.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Sin is from his creation not because sin itself was created by his creation but it is of creation because satan brought sin into the world.

The creation of sinful angels and sinful man are the creation of God.
There is ONLY ONE God.

I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Is 45:6–7.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Perhaps create is not the right the word he manipluates created things but the darkness and evil God creates is not the same as what satan does.

So yes you may be right about God creating evil and darkness but it is not the kind satan has that is what the difference is.

And also I do not give satan glory and that is uncalled for

When you assign things that Satan does not possess whether through misunderstanding the doctrine and Scripture of angels or through pure ignorance you give a glory to them that they do not have.

 

[makesends]

The Calvinist "U" is phony, since obviously GOD has his reasons for "Electing". They vigorously DENY that "Election" is "arbitrary" so "U" is false.

The "U" ('unconditional'), may be poorly chosen as a descriptor but all that is meant by it is that God chooses to whom to show mercy and save, not based on anything the elect is or does.

There is no indication of arbitrariness. God does not choose from a pool of possibles. He creates each on for the specific purpose for which that one is intended.

 

[makesends]

What subject?

Large range, actually. Could be anything from "Brute fact" to "Does God create Evil", or, "What Does It Mean, To Create?", or "Timelessness of God", or "First Cause" etc etc.

 

[Josheb]

[edit by mod: misquote of @Synergy]​

It is by faith and good works that one confirms his already-existent calling and election.

It is by faith and good works that one confirms his already-existent calling, election and salvation.

Leaving out the already-existing condition is bad soteriology. Incomplete at best, completely misguided and false at worst. 2 Peter 1:1-15 was written to and about the already saved, the already called, the already elect. It states so right in the opening verse, and it declares to its readers unequivocally they already have everything they need to live a godly life AND they can participate in the divine nature.

If any single one of those readers had died in the middle of reading that letter s/he would be resurrected to eternal life.

 

[ChristB4us]

5 Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6 and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7 and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they do not make you useless nor unproductive in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For the one who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers and sisters, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choice of you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you. 2 Peter 1:5-11.

Are these descriptive of a believer, or prescriptive?

I believe these describe a believer.

Descriptive of a believer that is His disciple.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

If a believer is living in sin or deceived by the evolution theory in not being a believer any more as an example; he is still saved but at risk of being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, to serve the King of kings on earth from all over the world in raising up the generations coming in that 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

We are not to judge any one as not a believer or not saved, but we can judge as in correct professing believers living in sin and even former believers and if necessary excommunicate an unrepentant believer in the hopes that the Lord will lead them to repentance later on.

If not, then the Lord will excommunicate that unrepentant believer & former believer at the pre great tribulation rapture event from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

As it is, Peter's exhortation in 2 Peter 1:5-11 is for believers to endure to the end as abiding in Him as His disciples to escape the fiery calamity that is coming on the earth in 2 Peter 3:3-15 after the pre great tribulation rapture event as Jesus testified to that also in Luke 17:26-35

 

[Agra Man]

When you assign things that Satan does not possess whether through misunderstanding the doctrine and Scripture of angels or through pure ignorance you give a glory to them that they do not have.

Giving credit and giving glory are not the same thing you give glory as a form of worship you cannot worship both God and the devil

 

[jeremiah1five]

Large range, actually. Could be anything from "Brute fact" to "Does God create Evil", or, "What Does It Mean, To Create?", or "Timelessness of God", or "First Cause" etc etc.

First, I use a King James Version. My Greek and Hebrew is Strong's.
Do you respect these sources?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Giving credit and giving glory are not the same thing you give glory as a form of worship you cannot worship both God and the devil

Splitting hairs. The KJV uses 'glory.' Webster's/Merriam uses 'credit.'
Either way, concerning the angels that sinned they are ALL locked up in chains of darkness awaiting judgment day.
ALL of them.
Any evil in this world among humans ALL come from man (and women.)

 

[jeremiah1five]

Descriptive of a believer that is His disciple.

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

If a believer is living in sin or deceived by the evolution theory in not being a believer any more as an example; he is still saved but at risk of being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven to be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth, to serve the King of kings on earth from all over the world in raising up the generations coming in that 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.

First, there is no rapture. The Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Great Tribulation) with Israel.

Second, Once Jesus saves someone, they stay saved no matter their sin (which all was paid for on the cross.)
Jesus Christ is the Author and FINISHER of their faith.

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. Jn 10:28–29.

Plus, we are kept by the Power of the Holy Spirit. Triple security and assurance.

We are not to judge any one as not a believer or not saved, but we can judge as in correct professing believers living in sin and even former believers and if necessary excommunicate an unrepentant believer in the hopes that the Lord will lead them to repentance later on.

We are instructed and commanded to do both.

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 Jn 4:1.

The Lord will ALWAYS lead the saint who sins or out of fellowship with Himself to repentance.
Always.
The Prodigal Son(s) and Daughter(s) will ALWAYS return to Him.

If not, then the Lord will excommunicate that unrepentant believer & former believer at the pre great tribulation rapture event from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Everyone named in the book of life of the lamb slain will be at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
It will be a Great Cloud of Witnesses.

As it is, Peter's exhortation in 2 Peter 1:5-11 is for believers to endure to the end as abiding in Him as His disciples to escape the fiery calamity that is coming on the earth in 2 Peter 3:3-15 after the pre great tribulation rapture event as Jesus testified to that also in Luke 17:26-35

Our Ark is Christ and when He is ready to shut the door, we will be rescued from whatever He's planned to come upon the earth.
WE WILL endure to the end.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Large range, actually. Could be anything from "Brute fact" to "Does God create Evil", or, "What Does It Mean, To Create?", or "Timelessness of God", or "First Cause" etc etc.

In the Bible Study Forum entitled: "THE ANGELS THAT SINNED."

 

[ChristB4us]

First, there is no rapture. The Church will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Great Tribulation) with Israel.

Explain why Jesus had the apostle John warn this church in Revelation to repent or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation?

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV That means those who repent will not be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.

Explain why Jesus has the apostle John exhorted the church at Philadelphia to hold fast to be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth ;

Revelation 3:7-11 KJV That means they cannot be on the earth to be tempted by that mark of the beast to survive, now can they? Also those who do not hold fast will be left behind and thus not kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

Now note verse 11 in Revelation 3:11 about not letting any man to take their crown as a reward for holding fast to be kept from that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

Look at how Paul says that he can also be a castaway if he did not bring his body under subjection with Christ's help to win that crown.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.... 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Few days? When does this happen when believers not being ready as found abiding in Him get their stripes in verse 6 above? When left behind as found in verses 46-48 in the link for Luke 12:40-49 below.
Luke 12:40-49 KJV

I dare you to explain away those verses as they all align with the truth in scriptures that God is judging His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event for why we are to endure to the end in suffering by ceasing from sin with His help and by His grace to avoid being "disqualified" and thus becoming reprobate to be left behind to die but resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth but still in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Explain why Jesus had the apostle John warn this church in Revelation to repent or else be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation?
Revelation 2:18-25 KJV That means those who repent will not be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation.
Explain why Jesus has the apostle John exhorted the church at Philadelphia to hold fast to be kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth ;
Revelation 3:7-11 KJV That means they cannot be on the earth to be tempted by that mark of the beast to survive, now can they? Also those who do not hold fast will be left behind and thus not kept from the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.

Notice the word "ALL."

Now note verse 11 in Revelation 3:11 about not letting any man to take their crown as a reward for holding fast to be kept from that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.
Look at how Paul says that he can also be a castaway if he did not bring his body under subjection with Christ's help to win that crown.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

And when do you suppose the crowns are given away to the faithful?

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.... 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Few days? When does this happen when believers not being ready as found abiding in Him get their stripes in verse 6 above? When left behind as found in verses 46-48 in the link for Luke 12:40-49 below.
Luke 12:40-49 KJV

I dare you to explain away those verses as they all align with the truth in scriptures that God is judging His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event for why we are to endure to the end in suffering by ceasing from sin with His help and by His grace to avoid being "disqualified" and thus becoming reprobate to be left behind to die but resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood and earth but still in His House to serve the King of kings on earth.

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. 3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: 4 Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: 5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

I read the Scripture.
What's your point(s).

 

[makesends]

First, I use a King James Version. My Greek and Hebrew is Strong's.
Do you respect these sources?

I grew up on the KJV, as a missionary kid. Nightly devotions and daily classes. I probably know the KJV best of all the versions I use. But as far as I'm concerned, the KJV is no more inspired than the Reina Valera nor the Berean Standard. Only the originals were inspired.

Strong's is very useful, but like anything else, limited. I know language theory pretty well, and know very well the fact of mindset differences and so on, between one language and the other, and things necessarily lost in translation.

So, yeah, respect. But maybe not what you mean by it.