Is There a Contradiction?

[Josheb]

Elijah didnt go to heaven( Gods dwelling place) in that chariot event. It took him to another part of the Earth, he retired. He wrote a letter to the king, 10 years after that chariot event occurred-2Chronicles 21:12-15

Relevance?

Blind guides say he went to heaven. And that Enoch did as well. In fact they tell their flocks they go to heaven at death.

None of which is relevant.


This op is about reconciling scripture's statements Enoch didn't see death with scripture's other statements reporting everyone dies (and dies in multiple ways). The only one bringing heaven into the conversation is you, and it is irrelevant. Neither is this op about what anyone tells their "flocks." Would you, therefore, please return to the topic specified in the op? Thx

 

[makesends]

That is not an answer to my question. If you are not going to answer the question asked, then silence (no response at all) is sufficient and much more beneficial for the whole thread.

Do you think your body being changed from a mortal and corruptible body of previously sinful of flesh into an incorruptible and immortal spiritual body is a form of death?



.

It WAS an answer, if not a whole answer. It was relevant information. Give @Eleanor a little respect. The way you see things is not the only way things should be seen.

 

[makesends]

It's a good post, but every single point made in Post 23 was previously addressed somewhere in the thread and that post does not address some of the content others broached. However, the basic question was answered and answered correctly. So far (as far as I can tell from the posts, with the possible exception of one contributor) everyone agrees: scripture never contradicts itself and the two verses cited in the op do not do so, either. That being said, Post 23 does not reconcile the matter; it simply asserts one verse over others.

Hebrews 11:5
By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

The author of Hebrews must have meant, "all but Enoch died in faith" because Enoch did not die. Post 23 brings up some commendable scriptural content, but it does not actually reconcile the stated conflict between all men having to die once and face judgment and Enoch not dying. Although I am sure we could all agree Enoch is an exception to the rule as far as the sop of human existence goes, that exception does not reconcile with the appointed death and judgment. Posters could say "Enoch never died!" as often as they like but that does not change the equally scriptural fact ALL men die and face judgement, or the fact ALL have sinned and death is the wage of sin.


If it wasn't already read, then check Post 19 to better understand the purpose of the op.
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A small "aside". I wonder if they could say that Enoch 'slept', after being taken up.

 

[Eleanor]

Blind guides say he went to heaven. And that Enoch did as well. In fact they tell their flocks they go to heaven at death.

The spirit of the believer is with Christ after death.

 

[Josheb]

It WAS an answer, if not a whole answer. It was relevant information. Give @Eleanor a little respect. The way you see things is not the only way things should be seen.

The person is irrelevant.

First, it was a response, not an answer. It would not have matter who wrote what because we're not supposed to post about the poster. We're supposed to post about the post, NOT the poster. That is the second mistake in Post #102. More importantly, a simply survey of the posts shows that poster has repeatedly posted complete nonsense throughout the thread, not just to my posts. For example, Post 83 quotes me quoting John and Paul, and then quote mines a single statement about Peter (removing it from the flow of reasoning present in Post 82 to repeat what was already posted: Peter was talking about those still living! At best that's argumentum ad nauseam, completely unnecessary, and waste of everyone's time. It is the equivalent of posting, "Duh." I make no claims about the person who does that, what might be his or her motives or intent BUT I can and do point out the objectively verifiable problem with both the method and the content of that post (and a several others). Nonsense is never an answer to anything (unless the question is, "What do we correctly call irrational responses?").

But perhaps the most problematic statement in Post 102 is the premise facts and truth can and should be seen differently by anyone and everyone. I make no claims everyone or anyone has to see matter of diversity the way I do. I do, however, expect everyone to "see" facts and truth exactly the same. If I say, "You said, 'X''" and the posts do, in fact clearly state Poster X stating "X"," then I have not disrespected anyone. I have simply observed a fact that anyone can objectively verify.




Now read that again and count the number of times I used the word "you" in a disrespectful way

Now go through the thread and count who used the word "you" in a disrespectful manner the most.

Then come back and amend Post #102 so it more accurately reflects the facts in evidence and, after that......., perhaps we can all return to the op-specified topic.

Post, not poster.

The spirit of the believer is with Christ after death.

Hmmm..... Was the official's daughter, or Lazarus, dead or asleep? Where might I read Enoch reportedly sleeping? I am all eyes and ears, and eager to read the case for that premise. Use scripture . I suspect (and hope) we all agree scripture does, on occasion, use the word "sleep" to indicate death.

Psalm 13:3-4
Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death, and my enemy will say, "I have overcome him," and my adversaries will rejoice when I am shaken.


Does it do the reverse?


Make the case.

 

[Viking123]

A small "aside". I wonder if they could say that Enoch 'slept', after being taken up.

Enoch went to Sheol= the grave. No man entered heaven prior to Jesus ascension.

 

[Viking123]

The spirit of the believer is with Christ after death.

Spirit not as a ghost like person, but in Gods remembrance of exactly who they are.

 

[makesends]

Enoch went to Sheol= the grave. No man entered heaven prior to Jesus ascension.

Premise-driven reasoning, resulting in what Scripture does NOT say.

Not to mention, rather obviously, a worldview dependent on an absolutely universal temporal as over against the eternal. To put it mathematically, this life is only an 'envelope' or a 'parenthesis' at best, within eternal reality. The eternal is not time dependent.

 

[makesends]

The spirit of the believer is with Christ after death.

AMEN and thank God for that! Such a beautiful fact, such a delicious hope. To die is to be home with the Lord and all this heartache over with!

 

[makesends]

Spirit not as a ghost like person, but in Gods remembrance of exactly who they are.

Have any of us ever been more than God's purposes concerning us?

 

[Viking123]

Premise-driven reasoning, resulting in what Scripture does NOT say.

Not to mention, rather obviously, a worldview dependent on an absolutely universal temporal as over against the eternal. To put it mathematically, this life is only an 'envelope' or a 'parenthesis' at best, within eternal reality. The eternal is not time dependent.

The bible says that Chariot took Elijah to heaven, yet he wrote a letter( 2Chronicles 21:12-15) 10 years after the chariot event, proving it was NOT Gods dwelling place that he went to. He was transported through our atmosphere( heaven) to another part of the Earth.
Gen 1 mentions-heavens=1) our atmosphere-2) outer space-3) Gods dwelling place.
God ended Elisha's existence so he didn't experience death. Elisha was not taken to heaven.
John 3:13- no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven( Jesus)

 

[Viking123]

Have any of us ever been more than God's purposes concerning us?

All have free will. Few know God.

 

[makesends]

The bible says that Chariot took Elijah to heaven, yet he wrote a letter( 2Chronicles 21:12-15) 10 years after the chariot event, proving it was NOT Gods dwelling place that he went to. He was transported through our atmosphere( heaven) to another part of the Earth.
Gen 1 mentions-heavens=1) our atmosphere-2) outer space-3) Gods dwelling place.
God ended Elisha's existence so he didn't experience death. Elisha was not taken to heaven.
John 3:13- no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven( Jesus)

I'm not so sure that chronology is correct. It assumes several unknown things, and is a very weak basis for establishing doctrine. The explanation could even be as simple as a typo, the message being sent via Elisha and not Elijah.

Anyway, here are a few possible explanations, from GotQuestions.org, and yes, they mention that some people claim what you do.

There are several reasonable explanations for how Elijah’s letter was delivered to King Jehoram seemingly after Elijah’s translation to heaven:​

​

First, it’s possible that the author of 2 Kings did not place the account of Elijah’s translation to heaven in chronological order with the surrounding chapters. Elijah could have still been serving as prophet until much later in the reign of Jehoram.​

​

Another possibility is that Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram before his departure to heaven and left it for Elisha or someone else to deliver. Elijah was a prophet, after all. God could easily have given him the words to write ahead of time.​

​

Another possibility is that, before his translation to heaven, Elijah told Elisha what Jehoram would do and what God’s judgment would be. When the time came, Elisha wrote out Elijah’s prophecy and delivered it to King Jehoram.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/Elijah-letter-Jehoram.html

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Have any of us ever been more than God's purposes concerning us?

All have free will.

You know this, how?

Few know God.

Of course. But, what is your point? How does that answer my point?

 

[Lees]

This is my first post so, hello to all.

I do not see any contradiction between (Heb. 9:27) and (Heb. 11:5). If that is viewed as a contradiction then the 2nd death, (Rev. 2:11) (Rev. 20:6), must be a contradiction to (Heb. 9:27) also. Because that contradicts the 'once to die'.

And, (Heb. 11:5) is clear. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death..." So Enoch could not see death. That was the point of the translation.

Concerning (Heb. 9:27), being 'appointed unto men once to die' should not be read as 'must die', as though God cannot intervene and translate some. The emphasis in (Heb. 9:23-10:18) is upon Christ having died 'once' and only 'once'. First the dying and then the judgement. The order will prove Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient for all.

(Heb. 9:25) "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others."

(Heb. 9:26) "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

(Heb. 9:27) "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:"

(Heb. 9:28) "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Just as the order for man is death and then judgement, Christ died only once for sin. He does not, cannot, come back and die over and over again. When He does come back it is to complete God's plan of salvation for His people. Which Paul sums up in (Heb. 10:18), "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

As to (Heb. 11:13), "These all died in faith, not having received the promises...." This speaks to those promises made to Abraham. (Heb. 11:8-12) These promises were well after Enoch. And to those to whom these promises were made, they all died in faith, not having received the end to those promises.

God instituted death upon man for sin. (Gen. 2:17). Just as God in the creation established the perfect order by which it continues to function. Yet God, through Joshua, stopped the earth from rotating. How many laws in creation did that break? But, He is God. He can do that because it's His creation. Thus God can translate some to not see death if He wants to. And apparently He wants to.

Lees

 

[Eleanor]

Spirit not as a ghost like person, but in Gods remembrance of exactly who they are.

Not according to the NT word of God. . .

The immortal human spirit is an entity of the human person, which is separated from its body at death and, in the case of the believer, is with Christ at that time (Php 1:21-24), until it is reunited with its body in the resurrection of all mankind at that end of time.

 

[Eleanor]

This is my first post so, hello to all.
I do not see any contradiction between (Heb. 9:27) and (Heb. 11:5). If that is viewed as a contradiction then the 2nd death, (Rev. 2:11) (Rev. 20:6), must be a contradiction to (Heb. 9:27) also. Because that contradicts the 'once to die'.
And, (Heb. 11:5) is clear. "By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death..." So Enoch could not see death. That was the point of the translation.
Concerning (Heb. 9:27), being 'appointed unto men once to die' should not be read as 'must die', as though God cannot intervene and translate some. The emphasis in (Heb. 9:23-10:18) is upon Christ having died 'once' and only 'once'. First the dying and then the judgement. The order will prove Christ's one sacrifice is sufficient for all.

(Heb. 9:25) "Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others."

(Heb. 9:26) "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

(Heb. 9:27) "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement:"

(Heb. 9:28) "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Just as the order for man is death and then judgement, Christ died only once for sin. He does not, cannot, come back and die over and over again. When He does come back it is to complete God's plan of salvation for His people. Which Paul sums up in (Heb. 10:18), "Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."

As to (Heb. 11:13), "These all died in faith, not having received the promises...." This speaks to those promises made to Abraham. (Heb. 11:8-12) These promises were well after Enoch. And to those to whom these promises were made, they all died in faith, not having received the end to those promises.

However, Hebrews goes on to say that Abraham, Isasac and Jacob did receive the end of those promises of an "everlasting inheritance" (Ge 13:15, 17:8).
Even though they never possessed Canaan (Ac 7:5, Heb 11:13, 19), they received it in the heavenly land/country (Heb 11:10, 16).
The eternal (everlasting) title was to heavenly land, not to earthly land.

God instituted death upon man for sin. (Gen. 2:17). Just as God in the creation established the perfect order by which it continues to function. Yet God, through Joshua, stopped the earth from rotating. How many laws in creation did that break? But, He is God. He can do that because it's His creation. Thus God can translate some to not see death if He wants to. And apparently He wants to.

Lees

 

[Arial]

The bible says that Chariot took Elijah to heaven, yet he wrote a letter( 2Chronicles 21:12-15) 10 years after the chariot event, proving it was NOT Gods dwelling place that he went to. He was transported through our atmosphere( heaven) to another part of the Earth.
Gen 1 mentions-heavens=1) our atmosphere-2) outer space-3) Gods dwelling place.
God ended Elisha's existence so he didn't experience death. Elisha was not taken to heaven.
John 3:13- no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven( Jesus)

The Chronicles were written by a different person and at a different time than are the Kings. It is chronicling many of the same events of Kings. The letter was not written after Elijah had been called up, but in the same time period. See 1 Kings 22:41-53- 2 Kings 1-2.

 

[Viking123]

I'm not so sure that chronology is correct. It assumes several unknown things, and is a very weak basis for establishing doctrine. The explanation could even be as simple as a typo, the message being sent via Elisha and not Elijah.

Anyway, here are a few possible explanations, from GotQuestions.org, and yes, they mention that some people claim what you do.

There are several reasonable explanations for how Elijah’s letter was delivered to King Jehoram seemingly after Elijah’s translation to heaven:​

​

First, it’s possible that the author of 2 Kings did not place the account of Elijah’s translation to heaven in chronological order with the surrounding chapters. Elijah could have still been serving as prophet until much later in the reign of Jehoram.​

​

Another possibility is that Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram before his departure to heaven and left it for Elisha or someone else to deliver. Elijah was a prophet, after all. God could easily have given him the words to write ahead of time.​

​

Another possibility is that, before his translation to heaven, Elijah told Elisha what Jehoram would do and what God’s judgment would be. When the time came, Elisha wrote out Elijah’s prophecy and delivered it to King Jehoram.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/Elijah-letter-Jehoram.html

truth is all that matters. Possibilities mean 0 unless they are truth.
I meant Enoch not Elisha in my previous post.

 

[Viking123]

Not according to the NT word of God. . .

The immortal human spirit is an entity of the human person, which is separated from its body at death and, in the case of the believer, is with Christ at that time (Php 1:21-24), until it is reunited with its body in the resurrection of all mankind at that end of time.

None are immortal but God and he gave Jesus immortality. You twist Php. It does not say when he would be with Christ. It just says he would be with Christ--That occurs during the first resurrection-after Rev 6:2 occurs here in these last days. Not back then.