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Is Double Predestination Biblical?

I'm not convinced (at all) that the millenial kingdom is only future (nor that the 1,000 is meant to be taken in a rigidly literal sense). I believe that it refers to the church age, in which we are ruling and reigning with Christ, who always leads us in triumphal procession.
so you think God is ruling with a rod of Iron now?

He is not doing very well. as I watch the news (Actually I can not believe the news anymore. so I do not watch it up)
 
It's true that God does not force people to receive him (force implies overcoming resistance with greater and opposing power). Rather than forcing people to receive him, against their will (which he would be perfectly capable of doing), God gives us a new heart/spirit that willingly trusts, loves and obeys him (Ez. 36:26,27).
if he forces you against your will. thats not a good thing. that would be a bad thing.

Dictators do this
God is willing, not only to show his love, but also all his other attributes (holiness, justice, wrath, etc.).
amen He already has shown lots of it. As romans 1 implies
Indeed he will; however, the Bible also says that repentance and faith are gifts from God, not something generated by sinful man (how could sinful man generate them, since he is, by nature, hostile towards God (Rom. 8:7,8) and he hates the light (John 3:19,20 - contrast with the condition of the one who has been born again, in John 3:21?).
I never stated I generated repentance and faith on my own. No one I have even spoken to believes this. so not sure why people keep making this an issue
 
They could say no and not do it. Just because you told them t=does not mean they will obey you.

looking at this example. I would not say you caused them to do it. I would say you asked them to do it.

Now if they refuse. You can say they must or be punished.. but even then, I do not see this as being the cause. the cause would be fear of mamma!!

I was giving you the two senses of the word so that you understand just how horrific and - from appearances - intentionally offensive and disingenuous you're being though you've been corrected time and again about what is being said as clearly as anyone can possibly express.

I hoped being blunt would finally be clear enough to show you how utterly offensive and absolutely disingenuous you're coming across, whether unintentionally or not.

Im not using a silly thrown together hypothetical to try and discuss this topic, which is highly Scriptural and in depth, there is no need to base a discussion on my hypothetical definition of two words.

People are trying to talk to you about what the word of God is saying. When you apply the correct definition of words to understand them, you will know what people are saying.
 
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I was giving you the two senses of the word so that you understand just how horrific and - from appearances - intentionally offensive and disingenuous you're being though you've corrected time and again about what is being said as clearly as anyone can possibly express.

I hoped being blunt would finally be clear enough to show you how utterly offensive and absolutely disingenuous you're coming across, whether unintentionally or not.

Im not using a silly thrown together hypothetical to try and discuss this topic, which is highly Scriptural and in depth, there is no need to base a discussion on my hypothetical definition of two words.

People are trying to talk to you about what the word of God is saying. When you apply the correct definition of words to understand them, you will know what people are saying.
One could say your being intentionally offensive and disingenuous also.

You expect me to receive your definition as if it is fact. Yet you refuse to accept mine.

You told me what you thought it mean, and gave me an example. i showed how I still did not see what you were saying by giving my own examples

I am not trying to be offensive. Just showing what i see.

Sorry if I offend you. It is not on purpose.

It seems no issue for people to try to offend me calling me synergistic when I am not.

Saying I am trying to earn salvation when i am not

Saying I believe things I have never believed. nor would I ever believed.

etc etc.

:(
 
It does not stay they cleaned themselves up. It does not say they even stopped their sins.
I think this was implied in the "such were some of you." They are no longer doing what they were doing before.

First John has a bunch of passages saying this.

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

This is from Vincent's Word Studies:
John does not teach that believers do not sin, but is speaking of a character, a habit. Throughout the Epistle he deals with the ideal reality of life in God, in which the love of God and sin exclude each other as light and darkness.
 
You expect me to receive your definition as if it is fact. Yet you refuse to accept mine.

I'm just saying let's try and go, not with what we think words mean but what an English dictionary says.

There's entire threads just arguing words and their definitions because definitions matter.

But we cant even start a conversation when we aren't using the same dictionary to define the basics. Because once it gets intricate with Scripture it matters more how we are communicating these Scriptural truths to those who don't know them.

And about being disingenuous - I wasn't being accusatory of your intentions, I am treating you like your intentions are good because I believe you have good intentions and want to talk to people, which is cool, but did want to bring this point forward.

I am not going to create a new dictionary called 'English word definitions as @Eternally-Grateful uses them' so we can have a real conversation... I'm going to speak according to the English language as long ago defined and all have easy access to a dictionary.

As far as my intentions in speaking, you can assume whatever you like, that's your choice, but I am hoping to, at the least, seek to resolve an issue so we can all have fruitful discussion about Scripture.

The first thing I did when I got here was crack open the dictionary. It helps.
 
I think this was implied in the "such were some of you." They are no longer doing what they were doing before.
It could be but Paul’s disciplined them for continuing to struggle in these sins

It’s one thing to live in them it’s another to struggle

But again it did not say they stopped or cleansed themselves
First John has a bunch of passages saying this.

1 John 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
Habitual sin is context here
1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

This is from Vincent's Word Studies:
John does not teach that believers do not sin, but is speaking of a character, a habit. Throughout the Epistle he deals with the ideal reality of life in God, in which the love of God and sin exclude each other as light and darkness.
We can”t live in sin that was our former selves

It does not mean we do not struggle with in.
 
I wrote down the title to purchase it later on. My Mom passed in 2016. One of my sisters died st age 45. If you knew my family, you'd know they were not going to beg for salvation in the end. I don't think they even believed in heaven or hell.
Thankfully it isn't what we do, now or in the end, but what God does in us.

My father was raised as a Presbyterian. I have no way of knowing what was taught as he set in the pews, but I do know what was going on in many churches atthat time (he was born in 1906). Fundamentalism was valiantly attempting to restore the church from the growing wave of abandoning sound doctrine and letting in all sorts of false teachers and false teachings. In the process, many of them became intensely legalistic and the focus came to be on outward behaviors, gone way beyond the commands of God, (just like the Pharisees) instead of on the person and work of Jesus. This may have been the case in my father's situation.



He passed in 1966 and some time later I was reading some things he had written, that indicated that is what made him abandon all religion until he became a Christian Scientist. He knew of election, but what he said was, "He guessed he was just not one of the elect." This indicates to me that he got the idea that election was proven by behaviors, not by what one believed. He was a young man, and likely doing the things young men do, some of which legalists say are sins. He smoked. Other things I was never made privy to. And one of the things that CS teaches is that there is no such thing as sin, just wrong thinking.

This I do know. That God was the very center of his life as an adult and husband and father. He raised us to be morally upright and to honor God. He had an excellent character himself. He taught his family the value of integrity and strength under pressure. I was not a Christian when he died, but his loss was devastating to me. When I became a Christian the grief that he might be in hell was even worse.

But I have hope, which is all I can have, and if I find out when I go "home" that he is not there, the Bible promises that there will be no more sorrow. But the hope is in this: He was sick with cancer and in a great deal of pain, and trying to get healing through CS methods. It is clear that he was then having his doubts about Christian Science, because one night he was reading from Science and Health the CS handbook, and through it across the room. And he was not a violent man. He shouted, "God knows if this is true or not. Let him tell me!"

CS does not teach that God is a personal being. He is Divine Mind. But of course, all Christian religions and the Bible itself, teach that God is a personal being and he relates and acts in is creation. Even as a child, having never been taught any of that, when I thought of God, which was daily and often, he was personal to me. And he still was to my father in that statement. He was in a coma for three days before he died. But he was not alone, as none of us ever are. He was familiar with the person and work of Jesus from his youth. Who knows what God may have reminded him of and what he may have come to believe.

It was not until the late 70's that my brother was the first to be rescued from the kingdom of darkness. Seven years later, me. A few years later my older sister, then my mother, then my youngest sister. All brought into God's kingdom. I never underestimate the power of God and his mercy.
 
don't forget though, he endures to those vessels of wrath with much longsuffering..
Look at his dealings with Israel. How many warning did he give before he said he is done.. and they were punished
But God chose Israel.

Amos 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying: 2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the LORD!

God gave them His Word and sent them prophets. He did not do this to Jericho for example. He sent His people into Jericho and they killed every man, woman and child along with the animals. Read about it in Judges 6.

I don't think there is anything about Jericho before this. They were just part of the heathen Gentiles that were in the land that God was going to give to Israel. God warned Israel to not mix with these people lest they become corrupted and worship their false gods.
 
I'm just saying let's try and go, not with what we think words mean but what an English dictionary says.
I did

The dictionary says we can influence people to do things

You can influence your child to go wash there hands u agree

If your child disobeys. It’s not because you caused them or influenced them to disobey it’s because they chose to

And even if you influence. It is at most a secondary. Which again was my point

My argument its against the notion God caused man to sin. At best if your child disobeyed you by commanding them to sin you caused them to sin by your command. (In this context if you did not ask them to wash and they did not wash there is no sin)
There's entire threads just arguing words and their definitions because definitions matter.

But we cant even start a conversation when we aren't using the same dictionary to define the basics. Because once it gets intricate with Scripture it matters more how we are communicating these Scriptural truths to those who don't know them.
The problem is many of us have our own theological dictionaries which do not agree

So should I go with your or you go with mine who is right or wrong. Or do we see each other by their definition not our own
(This is what I have tried to get people to do for awhile now)
And about being disingenuous - I wasn't being accusatory of your intentions, I am treating you like your intentions are good because I believe you have good intentions and want to talk to people, which is cool, but did want to bring this point forward.
I understand thank you

But again we all have our defenitions

Your defenition and my defenition of synergism would be in opposition to each other.
I am not going to create a new dictionary called 'English word definitions as @Eternally-Grateful uses them' so we can have a real conversation... I'm going to speak according to the English language as long ago defined and all have easy access to a dictionary.
I use the same dictionary. Again we may interpreted it different
As far as my intentions in speaking, you can assume whatever you like, that's your choice, but I am hoping to, at the least, seek to resolve an issue so we can all have fruitful discussion about Scripture.

The first thing I did when I got here was crack open the dictionary. It helps.
It only helps if we look at all possibilities.
 
if he forces you against your will. thats not a good thing. that would be a bad thing.
Would you still consider it bad after you got into his kingdom? Or would you weep with joy that he gave you to Jesus even though you were kicking and screaming?
Dictators do this
:ROFLMAO: Sorry. I had to laugh at that. God is a dictator. Do you think under his rule this is a democracy or republic? (Possibly you do I guess, since you insist that we get to make the deciding vote on our salvation.)Not all dictators are bad. Kings are dictators. Israel was full of kings. Jesus is THE King of all kings.
so you think God is ruling with a rod of Iron now?

He is not doing very well. as I watch the news (Actually I can not believe the news anymore. so I do not watch it up)
Wow! I continue to be amazed at some of the things people will say to God's face.
 
My argument its against the notion God caused man to sin.
Look at it like this. God created the Garden of Eden. He put Adam and Eve in it.
Then He created one tree and told them to not eat of it.
Then He let Satan in there to get Eve alone and tempt here to say God was lying and go ahead and do it.

It would be like a mother cooking up a batch of cookies and putting them in a bowl on a low table and telling her 3 year old to not eat one and them leaving the room.

It the kid ate one, most people would say it was the mother's fault.
 
But again it did not say they stopped or cleansed themselves
No, not the one verse you quoted. But John does say that.

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Purifies is G48 - hagnizō. It is used several other times in the NT.

John 11:55 And the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went from the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves.

James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
 
Look at it like this. God created the Garden of Eden. He put Adam and Eve in it.
Then He created one tree and told them to not eat of it.
Then He let Satan in there to get Eve alone and tempt here to say God was lying and go ahead and do it.

It would be like a mother cooking up a batch of cookies and putting them in a bowl on a low table and telling her 3 year old to not eat one and them leaving the room.

It the kid ate one, most people would say it was the mother's fault.
It would not make the mother guilty.
 
No, not the one verse you quoted. But John does say that.

1 John 3:3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

Purifies is G48 - hagnizō. It is used several other times in the NT.

John 11:55 And the Passover of the Jews was near, and many went from the country up to Jerusalem before the Passover, to purify themselves.

James 4:8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

1 Peter 1:22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart,
How are you purified..
 
I will never turn my back on God. NEVER.

Then take a deep breath and turn both your eternity and the eternity of everyone you love over to Him knowing God is entirely Just and let go of the burden of it.

It's not your weight to carry, that belongs to our Triune God, who is entirely Holy.

We can relax, trusting Him, and see if we can't learn for ourselves from Scripture, as we surround ourselves with our new family - the family of the living God near or far.

We don't have to know or understand everything in a day. We just have to know Him as He reveals Himself to us through His written word. You are here in understanding today. You will have a deeper understanding by next week and and on and on as time goes by.
 
Why would he CAUSE or FORCE people to believe him? (everyime I see the word cause, that is what comes to my mind,
Maybe it shouldn't. "Cause" and "force" are not always synonyms. They are only synonyms if force is what causes something to happen.
My argument its against the notion God caused man to sin.
How are you defining the word "cause" here? Do you know what @makesends or @Hazelelponi or anyone else here is means by "cause" it in relation to God? If the two things are different, then you can't argue against what they are saying, or say they are saying something which they are not saying, by using your definition.

If God did not cause anything to be, what would happen and what would be? Nothing. Did he just wind everything up and then knowing what would happen because he knows all things, decide to save everyone who would choose to accept the gift of faith. And stand back and watch it all take place, stepping in whenever something would wreck havoc on his plan if he didn't interfere?
 
so you think God is ruling with a rod of Iron now?
Yes, I do.

He is not doing very well. as I watch the news (Actually I can not believe the news anymore. so I do not watch it up)
God works all things according to the counsel of his own will; and he does all things well. He is never caught off guard, or surprised in any way; and his word always accomplishes what he sends it out to achieve.

Remember the book of Habakkuk, in which the prophet prays about the terrible situation in Israel, and the LORD says that he is going to bring judgment. Things might appear to be spiralling out of control; but they are never out of God's control and he knows exactly what he is doing.

I agree with you about "mainstream" news; it's bought and paid for, spinning a globalist narrative that no-one should believe.
 
if he forces you against your will. thats not a good thing. that would be a bad thing.
We agree that God does not force us to believe, against our will.

I never stated I generated repentance and faith on my own. No one I have even spoken to believes this. so not sure why people keep making this an issue
It's an issue that often arises when discussing God's sovereignty in salvation.

I'm glad that you don't believe that you generated your own repentance and faith; however, the fact that God gave them to you (N.B. not merely an ability to repent and believe, but actual repentance and faith in Jesus Christ) means that God caused (not forced) you to believe in Jesus.
 
Maybe it shouldn't. "Cause" and "force" are not always synonyms. They are only synonyms if force is what causes something to happen.
It becomes more complicated because we (people) like to think about it in terms of what we don’t want.
What about what we do want?

Did you CHOOSE to fall in love with the person you fell in love with?
Were you made (caused) to fall in love with them?
Were you forced to fall in love with them?
Did THEY cause or force you to fall in love with them?
Do you object to or resent this unfair violation of your freedom to select who you will fall in love with?
 
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