Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[ReverendRV]

It becomes more complicated because we (people) like to think about it in terms of what we don’t want.
What about what we do want?

Did you CHOOSE to fall in love with the person you fell in love with?
Were you made (caused) to fall in love with them?
Were you forced to fall in love with them?
Did THEY cause or force you to fall in love with them?
Do you object to or resent this unfair violation of your freedom to select who you will fall in love with?

At the end of the day, we spend too much time debating this. Why??

 

[fastfredy0]

I'm not convinced (at all) that the millenial kingdom is only future (nor that the 1,000 is meant to be taken in a rigidly literal sense). I believe that it refers to the church age, in which we are ruling and reigning with Christ, who always leads us in triumphal procession.

You might be right. Just another example of the difficulty of nailing down a definition of the "kingdom of God".

 

[Arial]

It becomes more complicated because we (people) like to think about it in terms of what we don’t want.
What about what we do want?

Well that's true,-----but that doesn't make it right.

But "cause" when referring to God has it's own theological definition. When someone argues against God causing someone to be saved, (rather than the person's own decision to be saved) and they are not using the theological definition but rather the definition of forced (with force. "He made me do it!") against their will, kicking and screaming, they lay a false claim against the doctrines in Calvinism. (And/or the fall for that matter.) They then turn around and say Calvinism makes God responsible for man's sin, and it makes him a dictating tyrant.

The fact that they keep on doing it even after having it explained to them----well, there is no excuse for it.

 

[ReverendRV]

How about this, for the Kingdom of God being now?

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. 4But the wise ones took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.

11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’

12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’

13Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

 

[makesends]

that's why even the purest of Godly men in the word fell on their face for even an Angel.. I think of one, saying he was a man of unclean lips.. We will see ourselves one day as we are

Yep. But we don't know what we are. On the day that we see him, we will be what we are—not what we were.

in the same way we will see ourselves as God sees us,. beloved and forgiven

On that day, "the sons of God will be revealed." I believe that is US.

 

[fastfredy0]

It would be like a mother cooking up a batch of cookies and putting them in a bowl on a low table and telling her 3 year old to not eat one and them leaving the room. If the kid ate one, most people would say it was the mother's fault.

hmm, guess I'm not most people

 

[makesends]

even truer yet?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us 1 John 1: 8

As somebody from my South Carolina church used to say, "BANGO!"

 

[makesends]

Why would he CAUSE or FORCE people to believe him? (everyime I see the word cause, that is what comes to my mind,

No. Because he brings them to himself and shows himself to them.

You don't see those two lines above as contradicting one another?

Its up to them to say yes Lord. I want your gift. or no lord. I continue to reject you

again, 1 John 1. The power given to us is of Christ. But it is given to those who believe

God will not force you to believe

I agree he will not force you to do what you don't want to do.

 

[ReverendRV]

How about this, for the Kingdom of God being now?

The Parable of the Ten Virgins

1“At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take along any extra oil. 4But the wise ones took oil in flasks along with their lamps. 5When the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9‘No,’ said the wise ones, ‘or there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10But while they were on their way to buy it, the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet, and the door was shut.

11Later the other virgins arrived and said, ‘Lord, lord, open the door for us!’

12But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I do not know you.’

13Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Then shall the kingdom of heaven,.... The Gospel church state; See Gill on Matthew 13:24 either as it would be a little before the coming of the son of man to take vengeance on the Jews; or as it will be a little before his second coming to judgment:
Matthew 25:1 Commentaries: "Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

 

[atpollard]

At the end of the day, we spend too much time debating this. Why??

It is more interesting than sports, politics or the economy.

 

[atpollard]

At the end of the day, we spend too much time debating this. Why??

Then again … they named it the Arminianism & Calvinism section of the board, so it sort of goes with the territory.

 

[Rescued One]

Then take a deep breath and turn both your eternity and the eternity of everyone you love over to Him knowing God is entirely Just and let go of the burden of it.

It's not your weight to carry, that belongs to our Triune God, who is entirely Holy.

We can relax, trusting Him, and see if we can't learn for ourselves from Scripture, as we surround ourselves with our new family - the family of the living God near or far.

We don't have to know or understand everything in a day. We just have to know Him as He reveals Himself to us through His written word. You are here in understanding today. You will have a deeper understanding by next week and and on and on as time goes by.

I am grateful for your post!

 

[Rescued One]

wow.. This is a first. I never even heard them do this.. Something to ponder

Then again, A legalist usually does not like to discuss hell. Because deep down. they are not secure in Christ. they are basing their eternity on their works..

Its also why they will act out and attack a person who preaches grace (like the Pharisees did Jesus) because a grace believer and Christ forces them to admit they are not good enough

I spent years with Wesleyans. The sermons weren't about hell. I have a feeling they used the threat of hell to infuence children to become "Christians;" that would have happened in Sunday school when I wasn't there.

 

[Rescued One]

I cant agree here.

God loved the world. as much as he has to judge the world.

Granted. we limit how much God can pour on us. and we all deserve judgment.

UNLESS God died for them also..

You answered your own question with the verse you posted. I posted this ear;lier. I will repost it

But as many as have RECIEVED HIM to THEM he gave the POWER (Gk exousian - the authority, the power, the right, jurisdiction, strength) to become sons of God, to those who believe in his name

If you look in the Greek. it appears it is saying he gives us the right to save ourselves, to make ourselves children of God. but we both know that is not true.

Because of the next verse

Who were born, not of blood (it is not passed down from father to child) nor of the will of the flesh (I can not will myself saved) nor of the will of man (Another loved one my not will me saved) but of God

The power (the authority, the right, the jurisdiction, the strength) is Christ. He is our power. once we receive him in faith.

if the power is not received it will not be given

I disagree. Receiving is a gift of God; otherwise all sinners would not receive.

And if God loves EVERYONE, the Bible isn't true.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, I do.

ouch,

If this is God ruling with a rod of Iron. is heaven going to look this bad?

God works all things according to the counsel of his own will; and he does all things well. He is never caught off guard, or surprised in any way; and his word always accomplishes what he sends it out to achieve.

Oh I agree. 100%

Remember the book of Habakkuk, in which the prophet prays about the terrible situation in Israel, and the LORD says that he is going to bring judgment. Things might appear to be spiralling out of control; but they are never out of God's control and he knows exactly what he is doing.

I agree with you about "mainstream" news; it's bought and paid for, spinning a globalist narrative that no-one should believe.

But the word tells us what the 1000 year reign will look like. I see nothing like that in the world at any time since Christ

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We agree that God does not force us to believe, against our will.


It's an issue that often arises when discussing God's sovereignty in salvation.

I'm glad that you don't believe that you generated your own repentance and faith; however, the fact that God gave them to you (N.B. not merely an ability to repent and believe, but actual repentance and faith in Jesus Christ) means that God caused (not forced) you to believe in Jesus.

Love the first sentence.

the second. God gave be the ability. I still had to chose.

God caused at most was secondary. He led, he drew he taught. but we all musty make a decision.

I still am not sure what the fear is that saying one received the gift of salvation freely is a person saving himself

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

At the end of the day, we spend too much time debating this. Why??

Pride

We have to prove we are right.. and will fight to the end for it..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yep. But we don't know what we are. On the day that we see him, we will be what we are—not what we were.

On that day, "the sons of God will be revealed." I believe that is US.

100% And if we think we know love now. Then we will really know it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You don't see those two lines above as contradicting one another?

in what Context.

I can bring my kids to a place they can make a decision on their own. But I can not force that decision. They still must chose

I agree he will not force you to do what you don't want to do.

Good

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

It is more interesting than sports, politics or the economy.

sad but true..lol