Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[Eternally-Grateful]

Then again … they named it the Arminianism & Calvinism section of the board, so it sort of goes with the territory.

this is true!! Although where are are the arminians?? lol

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I spent years with Wesleyans. The sermons weren't about hell. I have a feeling they used the threat of hell to infuence children to become "Christians;" that would have happened in Sunday school when I wasn't there.

Interesting.

Being a baptist. I went to some churches that had weekly "fire and brimstone" teaching.. I used to call them 20 Minute sermonettes. because we were really not learning anything.

 

[Rescued One]

Interesting.

Being a baptist. I went to some churches that had weekly "fire and brimstone" teaching.. I used to call them 20 Minute sermonettes. because we were really not learning anything.

I heard about "fire and brimstone" preaching but never attended such. I've only attended a few baprist churches, and they were very different from one another, not all 3 or 4 were Calvinist. And only about 1 or 2 visits each.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I disagree. Receiving is a gift of God; otherwise all sinners would not receive.

The ability to receive is a gift.

Not everyone will receive. That's why Jesus said, if you do not believe you are condemned already. If you do believe you are no longer condemned. You are in essence born again

And if God loves EVERYONE, the Bible isn't true.

If God does not love everyone. the bible is not true. He is a god of perfect love that we can not comprehend. and will not until we see him face to face.

Everyone likes to focus on Gods sovereignty. he is sovereign, but even more, he is love.

I see his essence in this way

He is perfect love
He is perfect justice
He is perfectly sovereign.

All of these work together to make him who he is.

As I see it......

the problem is the universalist says God is perfect love. they reject his perfect Justice
The Problem with the fatalist is they say God has perfect justice. Yet is limited or selective on his love

As for as Gods sovereignty goes. It works within the boundaries of perfect love and perfect justice. He is allowed to do as he wishes. and his wishes will not counter his perfect justice or his perfect love.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I heard about "fire and brimstone" preaching but never attended such. I've only attended a few Baptist churches, and they were very different from one another, not all 3 or 4 were Calvinist. And only about 1 or 2 visits each.

its interesting you say this. The one church I grew up and was saved in went from GARBC (General Association of Regular Baptist Churches) To independent. In my 30 years there. we had about 10 different pastors. Each was different, and each brought his own, (one was a health and wealth, one was a brimstone and fire. Interesting is the very first pastor was my favorite (I was led to Christ under his ministry) and the last.. Who got deep into the words using the ICE method of teaching, Taught deep systematic theology and deep in Greek and Hebrew. (most of my study techniques and walking through the word came from him)

Then in the military, I visited multiple baptist churches in al the states I lived in. and they too were different.

They for the most part had the same message.

I honestly do not believe any of them taught TULIP or would have been 5 point calvinists however.

 

[makesends]

Eternally-Grateful said:
Why would he CAUSE or FORCE people to believe him? (everyime I see the word cause, that is what comes to my mind,
No. Because he brings them to himself and shows himself to them

makesends said:
You don't see those two lines above as contradicting one another?

in what Context.

I can bring my kids to a place they can make a decision on their own. But I can not force that decision. They still must chose

In your first line you are saying he does not cause them to believe him.
In your second line you say he brings them to himself and shows himself to them—does that not cause the effect?

After all, we know that every one God has chosen will certainly be saved.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Eternally-Grateful said:
Why would he CAUSE or FORCE people to believe him? (everyime I see the word cause, that is what comes to my mind,
No. Because he brings them to himself and shows himself to them

makesends said:
You don't see those two lines above as contradicting one another?

In your first line you are saying he does not cause them to believe him.
In your second line you say he brings them to himself and shows himself to them—does that not cause the effect?

again it depends on how you see it

Will they who he draws believe no matter what. then yes. he would be the cause and effect.

Do they have the ability to still reject him or receive him? Then I would not say this is the major cause and effect.

It may be influenced.. Actually it is (for those who receive him) but for those who deny him. they did not deny him because he showed himself to them and came. they had a totally different cause

After all, we know that every one God has chosen will certainly be saved.

Yes.. no argument here.

However. names are being blotted out of the book of life all the time. why were they there to begin with? Neither of us believe on can lose salvation. we are kept forever. so why are names being blotted out?

 

[Hazelelponi]

If this is God ruling with a rod of Iron. is heaven going to look this bad?

Im sorry, but you were born a man in a time of technological, medical and industrial advancements, a natural citizen in the wealthiest country in the world which is the largest superpower this world has ever seen, where your life is full of unlimited opportunities and a brain that is intelligent and resourceful and practically unlimited freedoms. Not only that, but the country was founded by believers who carefully considered our faith when constructing our laws and our rights.

On top of all those blessings you were born into, you have spent your entire life with access to the whole body of Scripture and seeing the worship of the Living God....

There's no blessing that you have been denied from birth...

Can you imagine how someone like Paul, crippled and walking miles and miles to share the Gospel, would have appreciated roads and cars? Would have appreciated a life free from persecution?

If there's a "heaven" on earth you were born in the middle of it.

If I was born in any other time I would have died when I was 5, or if not then definitely when I was only 22. I wouldn't have lived past the age of 22 even 50 years prior to that, I would just be dead.

Born in any other time and place and my ex would have killed me, and he would have had the right to take my life. Born in any other time and place and I could have been stoned to death at the age of 14 for being raped.

Don't start about how terrible this life is. We were absolutely blessed by God in every way. We have some trials, but it's not as bad as all that. It could certainly be worse, and pretty much every other time in history was.

Everything we have we owe to the spread of the Gospel, everything we owe to Christ.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Im sorry, but you were born a man in a time of technological, medical and industrial advancements, a natural citizen in the wealthiest country in the world which is the largest superpower this world has ever seen, where your life is full of unlimited opportunities and a brain that is intelligent and resourceful and practically unlimited freedoms. Not only that, but the country was founded by believers who carefully considered our faith when constructing our laws and our rights.

On top of all those blessings you were born into, you have spent your entire life with access to the whole body of Scripture and seeing the worship of the Living God....

There's no blessing that you have been denied from birth...

Can you imagine how someone like Paul, crippled and walking miles and miles to share the Gospel, would have appreciated roads and cars? Would have appreciated a life free from persecution?

If there's a "heaven" on earth you were born in the middle of it.

If I was born in any other time I would have died when I was 5, or if not then definitely when I was only 22. I wouldn't have lived past the age of 22 even 50 years prior to that, I would just be dead.

Born in any other time and place and my ex would have killed me, and he would have had the right to take my life. Born in any other time and place and I could have been stoned to death at the age of 14 for being raped.

Don't start about how terrible this life is. We were absolutely blessed by God in every way. We have some trials, but it's not as bad as all that. It could certainly be worse, and pretty much every other time in history was.

Where did I say anything about how terrible my life is?

I grew up under the threat of war. The cold war and outright nuclear destruction was pushed on me every day. Including having drills in school of what do do in case of a nuclear detonation.

I grew up under the threat that war may end up in my city, my family and friends may not only have to fight. but may be captured or killed

I grew yo and am still in an area where at any moment at any time. I could be murdered. robbed, or worse.

Kids are being killed by animals, Not just the animal kind but human animals.

Girls are being brutalized, raped and sold for sex traffic

Dictators no only rule over their people with amazing evil. they go to war with other countries and kill millions, because of greed and power.

There is nothing in scripture that says any of this will be going on when Jesus rules.

Here is a great OT prophet who speaks of that time..

Is 11:
There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,
The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little child shall lead them.
7 The cow and the bear shall graze;
Their young ones shall lie down together;
And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole,
And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain,
For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
As the waters cover the sea.

There is more if we continue the passage But I hope you see the point

I see nothing like this today. or for the last 2000 years..

This will happen. all these things will. Christ will strike the earth. He will slay the wicked. and he will gather together the elect. and the world WILL be full of the knowledge of God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.

Again, there's no earthly blessing that you have been denied, your cup runneth over with material and spiritual blessings

Christ did strike the earth, or did you not notice?

Jesus came to the earth, fulfilled the old covenant through his life and death and began the new in his ressurection. Since then, not one thing, not one thing, has stopped or been able to stop the advancement of the Kingdom of God. No power on the earth or in the earth or under the earth has been able to stop it, try though Satan has.

Read the Scripture together as it's written.

"Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.”

I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.

Blessed are all who take refuge in him."

^^ this is now. Did you expect a Kingdom of One not to have to grow?

Everything we do that is done in faith, in Christ, in the love of God and of the brethren, in accordance with God's perfect will and aided by the Holy Spirit, brings Heaven that much closer to earth on a daily basis.

Obedience, patience... Yes, there will be more, we do actually go to heaven, but this is the Kingdom of God advancing. Has been advancing since the resurrection, going forward to cover the earth.

Whether or not the nations were obedient, now that's a completely different question...

.. Because this is also the judgement

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." John 3:19

Two kingdoms, the kingdom of darkness, and the Kingdom of God. The wheat and the tares growing together.

Tares turn into wheat every day. Evil is judged righteously. God's mercy and provision abounds.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again, there's no earthly blessing that you have been denied, your cup runneth over with material and spiritual blessings

Again, This is not about me..

Christ did strike the earth, or did you not notice?

when? I look back in history, and I see no time when Christ appears in the sky and all nations saw the sign of the son of man. and he struck the earth. where there was so much dead flesh the birds feasted.

Jesus came to the earth, fulfilled the old covenant through his life and death and began the new in his ressurection. Since then, not one thing, not one thing, has stopped or been able to stop the advancement of the Kingdom of God. No power on the earth or in the earth or under the earth has been able to stop it, try though Satan has.

I agree. But that is not the same kingdom.

Read the Scripture together as it's written.

"Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord and against his Anointed, saying, “Let us burst their bonds apart and cast away their cords from us.” He who sits in the heavens laughs; the Lord holds them in derision. Then he will speak to them in his wrath, and terrify them in his fury, saying, “As for me, I have set my King on Zion, my holy hill.”

I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you. Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”

Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled.

Blessed are all who take refuge in him."

^^ this is now. Did you expect a Kingdom of One not to have to grow?

I see the world today. I do not see any unity, any nations worshiping God. no peace.

Everything we do that is done in faith, in Christ, in the love of God and of the brethren, in accordance with God's perfect will and aided by the Holy Spirit, brings Heaven that much closer to earth on a daily basis.

Obedience, patience... Yes, there will be more, we do actually go to heaven, but this is the Kingdom of God advancing. Has been advancing since the resurrection, going forward to cover the earth.

Whether or not the nations were obedient, now that's a completely different question...

.. Because this is also the judgement

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil." John 3:19

Two kingdoms, the kingdom of darkness, and the Kingdom of God. The wheat and the tares growing together.

Tares turn into wheat every day. Evil is judged righteously. God's mercy and provision abounds.

Can you please go back over the prophecy I shared. and show me where those things are happening today. or have happened in the past 2000 years (since Christ)

if you want to convince me. that is where you have to start.

 

[Hazelelponi]

when

He died on the cross!!!!!!!!!

If you cannot recognize all that Christ has done then I can't even help you.

 

[Whatever]

How are you purified..

Not 100%, but we work on it.

ESV
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age

Training is = G381 - paideuō - to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

NKJ
Heb 12:6 FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE CHASTENS (G381), AND SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
Proverbs 3:11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction;
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not 100%, but we work on it.

ESV
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age

Training is = G381 - paideuō - to train up a child, that is, educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment): - chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

NKJ
Heb 12:6 FOR WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE CHASTENS (G381), AND SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."
Proverbs 3:11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction;
Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

so you work on saving yourself?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He died on the cross!!!!!!!!!

If you cannot recognize all that Christ has done then I can't even help you.

Sister.

He died on the cross to save me eternally and you. That is fulfilled. for not only you and I but for the world

I am not talking about this. or anyone's salvation. I am talking about what God said the world will be like when Jesus rules with a rod of Iron, here on earth

God has not promised the church peace. He has promised we will have tribulation, we will have trial. we will have suffering. we will have opposite

but the kingdom age that he promised not only Israel but the whole world. He promises the opposite.

so again I ask

Is 11 There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch shall grow out of his roots.
2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him,
The Spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The Spirit of counsel and might,
The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

3 His delight is in the fear of the Lord,
And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes,
Nor decide by the hearing of His ears;
4 But with righteousness He shall judge the poor,
And decide with equity for the meek of the earth;
He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked.
5 Righteousness shall be the belt of His loins,
And faithfulness the belt of His waist.

These things will be a sign of this time period

6 “The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb,

The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,

The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them.

7 The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together;

And the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

8 The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den.

9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.

1. When did he slay the wicket by striking the earth?
2. When has the whole world, every nation known God personally?
3. When has the wolf and the lamb dwelt together in peace
4. When has the leopard and the goar lied down together in peace
5. When has the calf and young lion lied together with a fatling, and a child led them with no fear. in peace.
When did the lion starting eating straw and not eat meat?
6. Would you trust your child to play near a cobra's hole. or to put his hand in a vipers den. because they will not be hurt?
When will all these things live in peace. and not destroy or hurt anything or anyone in Gods holy mountain?

If you can not show me when these things have occurred. Then you are right, you can't help me.

well actually you are helping me. Because you are proving to me that these things are yet future. And I am on the right track.

 

[David1701]

ouch,

If this is God ruling with a rod of Iron. is heaven going to look this bad?

Oh, no, heaven doesn't have any sinners in it...

Oh I agree. 100%

But the word tells us what the 1000 year reign will look like. I see nothing like that in the world at any time since Christ

Is it literal, or figurative? The lion lying down with the lamb: is that about a carnivorous animal lying down peacefully with a docile food source, or does it represent people of wildly incompatible character, being able to live peacefully, now that they're born again?

Think about how the apostle Paul gave us the proper interpretation of one of the laws of Moses:

1 Cor. 9:6-10 (W.E.B.)
6 Or have only Barnabas and I no right to not work?
7 What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and doesn’t eat of its fruit? Or who feeds a flock, and doesn’t drink from the flock’s milk?
8 Do I speak these things according to the ways of men? Or doesn’t the law also say the same thing?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it for the oxen that God cares,
10 or does he say it assuredly for our sake? Yes, it was written for our sake, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should partake of his hope.

I believe that some places in the Bible (especially in prophecy and poetry) that many interpret literally, are not meant to be taken literally.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Oh, no, heaven doesn't have any sinners in it...

but when God rules with a rod of iron. they will all still be sinners (seome saved some not saved)

Is it literal, or figurative? The lion lying down with the lamb: is that about a carnivorous animal lying down peacefully with a docile food source, or does it represent people of wildly incompatible character, being able to live peacefully, now that they're born again?

Think about how the apostle Paul gave us the proper interpretation of one of the laws of Moses:

1 Cor. 9:6-10 (W.E.B.)
6 Or have only Barnabas and I no right to not work?
7 What soldier ever serves at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard, and doesn’t eat of its fruit? Or who feeds a flock, and doesn’t drink from the flock’s milk?
8 Do I speak these things according to the ways of men? Or doesn’t the law also say the same thing?
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it for the oxen that God cares,
10 or does he say it assuredly for our sake? Yes, it was written for our sake, because he who plows ought to plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should partake of his hope.

I believe that some places in the Bible (especially in prophecy and poetry) that many interpret literally, are not meant to be taken literally.

Prophecy is God telling us (literally people alive at the time) what will happen.

So when God says these things will happen. Just like with the virgin birth from bethlehem, we can know it came from God. God declares the things in advance, that those alive in that time know he is the lord God and will believe.

Israel failed to see the signs, I pray the church does not walk down that same path

 

[Arial]

this is true!! Although where are are the arminians?? lol

Mostly, it would seem that they were here for awhile, certain that they could defend their position against Calvinism. When that proved to not be the case, they blamed the Calvinists and left the discussions. Others are simply not interested in the debate, understandably so as it is an age old debate, never satisfactorily resolved and won't be in these discussions.

The reason the "free will" position cannot be defended with sound biblical hermeneutics and exegesis and exposition, is because it isn't consistent with the Biblical doctrine of God---which mostly the agree with, but unconsciously abandon when it comes to the free will position in salvation. Their own doctrinal position makes it impossible to do what the Calvinist (if thoroughly vested in the craft of apologetics and intimately knowledgeable of the Scriptures)is able to do.

I realize that statement will likely result in proclamations of arrogance and pride. In these discussions facts mean little to the one attempting to undermine the doctrines of grace in Calvinism. That is why the "plan B" is often defamation of a person's character, red herrings, deflection. changing the subject, deliberate misstatement of the doctrines or what a person has said, proof texting, ignoring contradictions, and denial of any wrong doing.

But my question is why ask where the arminians are when you yourself hold the Arminian view of "free will" in deciding whether or not one will accept the gift of salvation?

 

[David1701]

Love the first sentence.

the second. God gave be the ability. I still had to chose.

God caused at most was secondary. He led, he drew he taught. but we all musty make a decision.

Do a Bible search, then find all the verses which say that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is a result of sinful man's choice. There aren't any...

Rom. 9:13-18 (W.E.B.)
13 Even as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? May it never be!
15 For he said to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I caused you to be raised up, that I might show in you my power, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 So then, he has mercy on whom he desires, and he hardens whom he desires.

I still am not sure what the fear is that saying one received the gift of salvation freely is a person saving himself

It's not a fear; in fact, we agree that one receives the gift of salvation freely, just as a socket receives a plug. The socket is made the right shape and size (like us being born again), then the plug is plugged into the socket without the need for force. Just like the socket and plug, the reception of the grace-gift of salvation does not depend upon the will of the socket, but upon the will of the one who inserts the plug (God).

 

[David1701]

but when God rules with a rod of iron. they will all still be sinners (seome saved some not saved)

That is the case right now.

Prophecy is God telling us (literally people alive at the time) what will happen.

As you know, there are many prophecies in the Bible; some have been fulfilled, some are being fulfilled and some have yet to be fulfilled.

So when God says these things will happen. Just like with the virgin birth from bethlehem, we can know it came from God. God declares the things in advance, that those alive in that time know he is the lord God and will believe.

Not all prophecies are the for the benefit of those alive at that time.

1 Pet. 1:10-12 (W.E.B.)
10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,
11 searching for who or what kind of time the Spirit of Christ, which was in them, pointed to, when he predicted the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that would follow them.
12 To them it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to you, they ministered these things, which now have been announced to you through those who preached the Good News to you by the Holy Spirit sent out from heaven; which things angels desire to look into.

Israel failed to see the signs, I pray the church does not walk down that same path

Some are more discerning than others. This is always the case.