Is belief a choice?

[TB2]

Why?

Can you make yourself believe?

Or, if one is spiritually dead (the natural man) and is unable to believe unto salvation, can he just make himself believe?

It sounds like you're contradicting yourself. I'm sure you're not, but then perhaps qualify upfront in your OP, or did I miss that too?

 

[Carbon]

It sounds like you're contradicting yourself.

Okay. I can see why you could think such.

I'm sure you're not,

Thanks

but then perhaps qualify upfront in your OP, or did I miss that too?

I think you may be missing something.

 

[TB2]

I think you may be missing something.

Wouldn't be the first time! Lol

 

[His clay]

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not, do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian? Or is it the other way around?
And the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong,
This could be quite confusing for many people.

Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?
You might like something and think it is interesting but if there really is no evidence? Why would anyone or should I say, how can anyone believe it. Can someone make themselves believe? I don’t think so.

How can someone believe then? "They must have evidence."And by another person explaining something to you is not evidence, that’s information. Which puts it right back at the beginning again.

So how do we get evidence? I think in this may be the answer. From reading/studying and thinking it over, I believed in Jesus because it became evident that he was who the scripture says he was, I just knew he was.
Not because people told me who he was or what he did. If I had to believe, or, “make myself believe” I don’t know if I could have gone it. I mean, how?

I think that we need to separate two issues here. I think that we need to make a distinction between "belief in the gospel" and "believing that Calvinism is true." The second involves mental assent to the basics of Calvinism. The first involves more than mental assent (since we all hold as true the statement in James, even the devils believe). Belief in the gospel is more than just believing the aspects of the gospel to be true. It goes considerably further. I hold to the noetic effects of sin, so I hold that people cannot believe in Jesus or the gospel when their heart is in love with sin (see Jn 3:19). Sin's perversion upon the mind renders the natural man unable to properly perceive their lostness and consequently the amazingness of the cross.

However, depravity does not rule choices; rather, depravity demonstrates that choices aren't all that simple and depravity binds a person's will. However, when God makes His light to shine in our hearts, and then we actually perceive God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6), then the person will want to believe and thusly choose to believe.

We have Romans 4, and Paul's inspired presentation of Abraham and his faith. In 4:3 we see the quote from Gen 15:6. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Let's work from the obvious to the less obvious. In response to God's reiteration of the promise--that Abram's seed would be as numerous as the stars of heaven--Abram believed God. At minimum, Abram (in spite of the later evidence of his body and Sarah's womb being dead (Rom 4:19)) believed God. In Genesis 22, Abraham's faith took the form of action as he trusted God's promise in spite of God's own command seemingly coming into conflict with the promise, but he trusted that God could raise Isaac from the dead (Heb 11:17-19). Abram's faith took the form of action in Heb 11:8.

The opening post addressed the issue of evidence, so I'll mention a few things about that topic. Most notably we have Pharaoh (Exodus) and the truth suppressors in Romans 1. Pharaoh had plague after plague; he had evidence after evidence. But he did not believe. The truth suppressors have the testimony coming from the things that are made, so as to be without excuse, but the truth-suppressors push away the truth, proclaim to be wise in their own eyes (epistemological autonomy), and thusly they become fools (more demonstration of the noetic effects of sin). And Romans 1:18-32 is all about the wrath of God being revealed, until Romans 3:21 speaks of the righteousness of God being revealed. Again, an essential part of the gospel Paul is elucidating in 1:18-3:20 is that people are sinful and under the wrath of God, so that every mouth would be stopped and the whole world held accountable to God (3:19-20). An essential part of the gospel is man's sinfulness, accountability, and deserved wrath from God. The problem must be understood before the solution makes sense. But I must get back to the issue of evidence. Pharaoh and the truth-suppressors had it in abundance and still rejected it, so evidence alone is not saving. However, the proper perception of God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ in the gospel is something that God makes to shine in the heart of a person; and thusly God overcomes man's depravity by the same creative power He displayed when He said, "Let there be light."

Thoughts?

 

[TB2]

I think that we need to separate two issues here. I think that we need to make a distinction between "belief in the gospel" and "believing that Calvinism is true." The second involves mental assent to the basics of Calvinism. The first involves more than mental assent (since we all hold as true the statement in James, even the devils believe). Belief in the gospel is more than just believing the aspects of the gospel to be true. It goes considerably further. I hold to the noetic effects of sin, so I hold that people cannot believe in Jesus or the gospel when their heart is in love with sin (see Jn 3:19). Sin's perversion upon the mind renders the natural man unable to properly perceive their lostness and consequently the amazingness of the cross.

However, depravity does not rule choices; rather, depravity demonstrates that choices aren't all that simple and depravity binds a person's will. However, when God makes His light to shine in our hearts, and then we actually perceive God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6), then the person will want to believe and thusly choose to believe.

We have Romans 4, and Paul's inspired presentation of Abraham and his faith. In 4:3 we see the quote from Gen 15:6. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Let's work from the obvious to the less obvious. In response to God's reiteration of the promise--that Abram's seed would be as numerous as the stars of heaven--Abram believed God. At minimum, Abram (in spite of the later evidence of his body and Sarah's womb being dead (Rom 4:19)) believed God. In Genesis 22, Abraham's faith took the form of action as he trusted God's promise in spite of God's own command seemingly coming into conflict with the promise, but he trusted that God could raise Isaac from the dead (Heb 11:17-19). Abram's faith took the form of action in Heb 11:8.

The opening post addressed the issue of evidence, so I'll mention a few things about that topic. Most notably we have Pharaoh (Exodus) and the truth suppressors in Romans 1. Pharaoh had plague after plague; he had evidence after evidence. But he did not believe. The truth suppressors have the testimony coming from the things that are made, so as to be without excuse, but the truth-suppressors push away the truth, proclaim to be wise in their own eyes (epistemological autonomy), and thusly they become fools (more demonstration of the noetic effects of sin). And Romans 1:18-32 is all about the wrath of God being revealed, until Romans 3:21 speaks of the righteousness of God being revealed. Again, an essential part of the gospel Paul is elucidating in 1:18-3:20 is that people are sinful and under the wrath of God, so that every mouth would be stopped and the whole world held accountable to God (3:19-20). An essential part of the gospel is man's sinfulness, accountability, and deserved wrath from God. The problem must be understood before the solution makes sense. But I must get back to the issue of evidence. Pharaoh and the truth-suppressors had it in abundance and still rejected it, so evidence alone is not saving. However, the proper perception of God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ in the gospel is something that God makes to shine in the heart of a person; and thusly God overcomes man's depravity by the same creative power He displayed when He said, "Let there be light."

Thoughts?

I know your comment wasn’t directed to me but very interesting nonetheless. I will have to contemplate more deeply

 

[His clay]

I think that we need to separate two issues here. I think that we need to make a distinction between "belief in the gospel" and "believing that Calvinism is true." The second involves mental assent to the basics of Calvinism. The first involves more than mental assent (since we all hold as true the statement in James, even the devils believe). Belief in the gospel is more than just believing the aspects of the gospel to be true. It goes considerably further. I hold to the noetic effects of sin, so I hold that people cannot believe in Jesus or the gospel when their heart is in love with sin (see Jn 3:19). Sin's perversion upon the mind renders the natural man unable to properly perceive their lostness and consequently the amazingness of the cross.

However, depravity does not rule choices; rather, depravity demonstrates that choices aren't all that simple and depravity binds a person's will. However, when God makes His light to shine in our hearts, and then we actually perceive God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ (2 Cor 4:6), then the person will want to believe and thusly choose to believe.

We have Romans 4, and Paul's inspired presentation of Abraham and his faith. In 4:3 we see the quote from Gen 15:6. Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness. Let's work from the obvious to the less obvious. In response to God's reiteration of the promise--that Abram's seed would be as numerous as the stars of heaven--Abram believed God. At minimum, Abram (in spite of the later evidence of his body and Sarah's womb being dead (Rom 4:19)) believed God. In Genesis 22, Abraham's faith took the form of action as he trusted God's promise in spite of God's own command seemingly coming into conflict with the promise, but he trusted that God could raise Isaac from the dead (Heb 11:17-19). Abram's faith took the form of action in Heb 11:8.

The opening post addressed the issue of evidence, so I'll mention a few things about that topic. Most notably we have Pharaoh (Exodus) and the truth suppressors in Romans 1. Pharaoh had plague after plague; he had evidence after evidence. But he did not believe. The truth suppressors have the testimony coming from the things that are made, so as to be without excuse, but the truth-suppressors push away the truth, proclaim to be wise in their own eyes (epistemological autonomy), and thusly they become fools (more demonstration of the noetic effects of sin). And Romans 1:18-32 is all about the wrath of God being revealed, until Romans 3:21 speaks of the righteousness of God being revealed. Again, an essential part of the gospel Paul is elucidating in 1:18-3:20 is that people are sinful and under the wrath of God, so that every mouth would be stopped and the whole world held accountable to God (3:19-20). An essential part of the gospel is man's sinfulness, accountability, and deserved wrath from God. The problem must be understood before the solution makes sense. But I must get back to the issue of evidence. Pharaoh and the truth-suppressors had it in abundance and still rejected it, so evidence alone is not saving. However, the proper perception of God's glory in the face of Jesus Christ in the gospel is something that God makes to shine in the heart of a person; and thusly God overcomes man's depravity by the same creative power He displayed when He said, "Let there be light."

Thoughts?

In paragraph 2 I had a monster typo. The "monster" is that it is very significant and screws up my actual position significantly. I apologize for miscommunicating so severely. The above post states.

"However, depravity does not rule choices; rather, depravity demonstrates that choices aren't all that simple and depravity binds a person's will."

What I meant to say is the following.

"However, depravity does not rule out choices; rather, depravity demonstrates that choices aren't all that simple and depravity binds a person's will."

The first statement makes it seem like I'm saying depravity does not rule choices, which is actually the opposite of my position. What I was trying to say was that the ruling nature of depravity over choices does not make choices non-existent. I apologize for the confusion that my comment here may have caused. What I meant and what I typed were two very different things.

 

[His clay]

I know your comment wasn’t directed to me but very interesting nonetheless. I will have to contemplate more deeply

I'm glad that your thinking has been provoked. As always, I hope that you will examine my post (like the Bereans) against the standard of scripture and conform your thinking and conduct to the parts you believe are in accord with scripture and leave the parts that may not adhere to scripture.

 

[Carbon]

But, then again, my faith as a wish, is decreed/ordained by God.

Where have you been? Miss talking with you.

 

[Ritajanice]

It’s the Spirit who brought me to believe in Jesus,..only he can bring the heart to life and believe....he revealed who he was to my spirit, when His Spirit gave birth to my spirit, you don’t need any Bible reading to know who God/ Jesus/ Holy Spirit is..but, your spirit must be Born Again to know God intimately...as that is how we communicate with Him, through our spirit....remember what he confirms in his word, we are to seek him out with all our heart,mind and soul..

The Living Holy Spirit is the only one who can testify who God/ Jesus is...directly to our spirit, as the word confirms...The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children..mind blowing!



Can I prove this, nope, don’t need to, it’s the Spirit who gives life and knowledge....not the opinions of man/ woman....it’s a HUGE HONOUR to be be Born Again by the Living Spirit Of God...33 years ago I became Born Again in the blink of an eye....Praise God!

 

[brightfame52]

Belief of the Truth is a choice, its Gods choice from the beginning, that His Beloved, whom He has chosen to Salvation, that they should experience sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Belief of the Truth/faith is a election blessing for Salvation. In other words, If God has chosen you to salvation He has chosen you to believe the Truth. And nothing will prevent it.

 

[prism]

'...you don’t need any Bible reading to know who God/ Jesus/ Holy Spirit is.'

I was raised in an atheistic home, no bible, no Church, no God, only evolution. I didn't know Jesus at all, only secular humanism (he was not a nice guy).

The Living Holy Spirit is the only one who can testify who God/ Jesus is...directly to our spirit, as the word confirms...The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children..mind blowing!

Without the witness of God's Word, how will we know which 'spirit' is speaking to us?

 

[Ritajanice]

I was raised in an atheistic home, no bible, no Church, no God, only evolution. I didn't know Jesus at all, only secular humanism (he was not a nice guy).

Without the witness of God's Word,

Who is the witness of Gods word...the Bible or the supernatural Living Holy Spirit?...who witnesses Gods truth to our spirit/ heart...?...the carnal mind has no understanding of the Spirit...

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◄ Romans 8:7 ►​

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​ Audio​ ​ Cross​ ​ ​ ​ Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. New Living Translation For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will. English Standard Version For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Berean Standard Bible because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.​

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how will we know which 'spirit' is speaking to us?

The witness of Gods word is Alive and Active, the Bible confirms this?

Who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, the Bible or the Living Holy Spirit?

The Bible does not give birth to our spirit, the Spirit does that, no Bible can birth your spirit..the Bible “ confirms “ how we become Born Again....

Who is Gods witness?...The Living Holy Spirit?...or the Bible?..

How would I know that it is the Spirit “ testifying “ with my spirit that I am Gods child....that’s a man made question.....my spirit recognised the testimony of the Living Holy Spirit straight away, ...

Reading the bible does not bring your spirit Alive in Christ...only the Living Spirit can do that..

How do you know that your spirit is Born Again?.....by whose Living testimony?

 

[Ritajanice]

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◄ Romans 8:16 ►​

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The Bible doesn’t testify with our spirit that we are Gods children.....it confirms how the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children......if one wasn’t Born Again this way then they couldn’t possibly understand what I’m talking about....Spirit gives birth to spirit.flesh gives birth to flesh ...Not Bible gives birth to spirit.the Bible is Gods confirmation....it is NOT the Living Spirit Of God.....no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.​ ​ 1 Corinthians 12:3 ►​ Audio​ Cross​ Study​ Comm​ Greek​ ​ Verse (Click for Chapter)​ New International Version​ Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. New Living Translation​ So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit. English Standard Version​ Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. Berean Standard Bible​ Therefore I inform you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.​ ​ ​ Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. New Living Translation For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. English Standard Version The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Berean Standard Bible The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Berean Literal Bible The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, King James Bible The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:​

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[Ladodgers6]

Who is the witness of Gods word...the Bible or the supernatural Living Holy Spirit?...who witnesses Gods truth to our spirit/ heart...?...the carnal mind has no understanding of the Spirit...

This sounds like mysticism. Why do you think God gave us His word. So, that we can test the spirits and false teachers. You sound like a Gnostic.

 

[Ritajanice]

This sounds like mysticism. Why do you think God gave us His word.

The Bible is not God...it confirms who God is?....why do you think Spirit must give birth to spirit?...do you understand that God is a Living Spirit...how would you know that God or Jesus even exist?...you are going to need more that studying your Bible my friend..you may well be following the teachings of Jesus via his Bible.....how could you possibly know that your spirit is Born Again?...do you even know that you have a spirit?

Who testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children?...the Bible confirms that the Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children.....so please show me my mysticism?......much better to challenge what I post that is biblical...rather than make accusations that you can’t back up...

So, that we can test the spirits and false teachers. You sound like a Gnostic.

Lol..Gnostic....maybe that’s because you have no understanding of my testimony...please challenge me with scripture, not your opinion please.

Maybe you are a follower of the Bible and don’t know who Gods Living testimony is?..are you Born Again..does your spirit know that it’s been birthed into Christ?
What does Spirit gives birth to spirit mean?...Flesh gives birth to flesh?...

"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.....=?


We are also led through scripture by the Spirit who brings it to our understanding in our spirit, as it’s a Spirit filled book...human homework of the Bible will get us nowhere...only the Living Spirit can unlock the Bible to our hearts/ spirit and bring it to our understanding....if your spirit isn’t Born Again you can only understand the Bible from one’s own human intellect..which is meaninglessness I’m afraid....

 

[Ritajanice]

@Ladogers6...we are to seek the Lord God out with all of our heart, mind and soul..maybe you should try doing that instead of thinking with your head...your spirit should crave to know more of the Living Spirit Of God....providing that your spirit is Born Again......also.

The Bible says plainly that God's Spirit reveals His marvelous secrets to… those who love Him: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him. But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit.

It’s the carnal mind that thinks Gnosticism or mysticism...they have no understanding of the Living Spirit.

To know God in our spirit is mind blowing..nothing on the planet like it..

God is also Pure LOVE!...delivered straight to the heart of his children, when their spirit becomes Born Again.

May you know the true Love Of God deep within your heart...in Jesus Name...Amen!

 

[ReverendRV]

Who is the witness of Gods word...the Bible or the supernatural Living Holy Spirit?... who witnesses Gods truth to our spirit/ heart...?...the carnal mind has no understanding of the Spirit...

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Sola Scriptura...

The Bible accompanied by the Holy Ghost is Irresistible. But even though the Bible Alone is sharper than a Double Edged Sword; it's not Salvifically Irresistible by itself...

The Bible or the Supernatural Living Holy Spirit? Calvinism touts Sola Scriptura, not Sola Holy Ghost. Why? Because the Bible is the highest Authority to resolve All Spiritual Disputes; even higher than the Spirit. Sure; you are using the word 'Who', the Bible is not a Who. Perhaps the Debate can better be resolved by dealing with the differences and similarities between the Who and the What...

 

[Ritajanice]

Sola Scriptura...

The Bible accompanied by the Holy Ghost is Irresistible. But even though the Bible Alone is sharper than a Double Edged Sword; it's not Salvifically Irresistible by itself...

The Bible or the Supernatural Living Holy Spirit? Calvinism touts Sola Scriptura, not Sola Holy Ghost. Why? Because the Bible is the highest Authority to resolve All Spiritual Disputes. Sure; you are using the word 'Who', the Bible is not a Who. Perhaps the Debate can better be resolved by dealing with the differences and similarities between the Who and the What...

No...the Bible is not the highest authority..the Holy Spirit is..the Living Holy Spirit..who testifies with our spirit.....how else would we know that we are Born Again?...

The Bible confirms how we become Born Again...the word of God is a Living seed...that is the seed that births our spirit into his...the Bible also confirms this....

I don’t understand your post to be honest , as it’s intellectual..it comes from “ you” and your own understanding of what it means to be Born Again..

The Holy Spirit is the only person who can testify of Gods truth to my heart/ spirit.....when we become Born Again we also receive a new heart and spirit within..hence Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed....whose seed are we Born Again of?....we are obviously on very different levels of spiritual understanding..

The Spirit has always spoken directly to my spirit/ heart from day one...then what I hear,I check with the written word.....

 

[ReverendRV]

No...the Bible is not the highest authority..the Holy Spirit is..

Then you are not a '5-Solas' Calvinist...

 

[Ritajanice]

Then you are not a '5-Solas' Calvinist...

No idea what a 5 - Solas Calvinist is....explain what it means please...what are the 5 points of Calvin....then I can tell you what God has brought me imo to believe.......I am what God has brought me to believe by the power of his Spirit..The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children, the Bible confirms how the Spirit testifies with our spirit.

Are you Born Again or just a Calvinist follower? @ReverendRV ?

My spirit belongs to God...Only he can lead me via his Spirit to understand scripture...I know nothing without him and am nothing without his Spirit.

We learn to understand God from within our spirit as our spirit is Born Again...Born Again of imperishable seed a Living Holy seed that was planted by the Spirit into our hearts..hence Born Again of imperishable seed...that can never wither or die....there is no mistaking the Living testimony, the Holy Spirit.when he testifies with our spirit that we are Gods children....his word that goes out from his mouth never returns void...it always accomplishes what the Spirit sent it out to accomplish...mind Blowing..