Is belief a choice?

[Ladodgers6]

God delivers from evil / sin and does not cause evil/ sin.

Matthew 6:9-13
“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!

How does God do this, Civic?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not, do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian? Or is it the other way around?
And the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong,
This could be quite confusing for many people.

Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?
You might like something and think it is interesting but if there really is no evidence? Why would anyone or should I say, how can anyone believe it. Can someone make themselves believe? I don’t think so.

How can someone believe then? "They must have evidence."And by another person explaining something to you is not evidence, that’s information. Which puts it right back at the beginning again.

So how do we get evidence? I think in this may be the answer. From reading/studying and thinking it over, I believed in Jesus because it became evident that he was who the scripture says he was, I just knew he was.
Not because people told me who he was or what he did. If I had to believe, or, “make myself believe” I don’t know if I could have gone it. I mean, how?

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel, it is a inner call of the Holy Spirit renewing the faculties and powers that were lost in the Fall.

 

[Carbon]

Faith comes by hearing the Gospel,

Are you a semi-pelagian? Again, don't forget the context.

it is a inner call of the Holy Spirit renewing the faculties and powers that were lost in the Fall.

That would be regeneration.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Are you a semi-pelagian? Again, don't forget the context.

That would be regeneration.

Well sir, Adam was a bad cautionary tale or bad example to follow. If we learn from Adam example then we could save ourselves as we follow Christ's example. There's no need for the forgiveness of sins or propitiation because we are good people. And good people don't go to hell. I am right?

 

[Carbon]

Well sir, Adam was a bad cautionary tale or bad example to follow. If we learn from Adam example then we could save ourselves as we follow Christ's example. There's no need for the forgiveness of sins or propitiation because we are good people. And good people don't go to hell. I am right?

I don’t understand.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not, do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian? Or is it the other way around?
And the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong,
This could be quite confusing for many people.

Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?
You might like something and think it is interesting but if there really is no evidence? Why would anyone or should I say, how can anyone believe it. Can someone make themselves believe? I don’t think so.

How can someone believe then? "They must have evidence."And by another person explaining something to you is not evidence, that’s information. Which puts it right back at the beginning again.

So how do we get evidence? I think in this may be the answer. From reading/studying and thinking it over, I believed in Jesus because it became evident that he was who the scripture says he was, I just knew he was.
Not because people told me who he was or what he did. If I had to believe, or, “make myself believe” I don’t know if I could have gone it. I mean, how?

Good words.
Scripture says men are born in sin and that sin is a bondage and the sinner a slave.
It also appears to me that once the stronger man (Jesus) binds the strong man (sin) and frees (free indeed) them from that bondage that person has nowhere else to go but God.
So, no, believing is not a choice.
Let's say God is vanilla and sin is chocolate. Remove the chocolate and the vanilla is left. Is it really a choice at this time especially since the vanilla is what's left.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13.

And His good pleasure is to make us willing towards Him and His Word.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I don’t understand.

I am playing the pelagian/semi-pelagian position to show their non-sense.

 

[fastfredy0]

Well sir, Adam was a bad cautionary tale or bad example to follow. If we learn from Adam example then we could save ourselves as we follow Christ's example. There's no need for the forgiveness of sins or propitiation because we are good people. And good people don't go to hell. I am right?

I don’t understand.

Sounds Pelagian to me save for the "if"s. Works salvation based on "if"s.
Since the "if"s (premises) are false it follows that 'works salvation' is also not possible.

My Guess

And good people don't go to hell. I am right?

Well, sinless people don't go to hell but I can count those individuals on the fingers of a cow's hoof.
Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Matt. 7:18

 

[fastfredy0]

I am playing the pelagian/semi-pelagian position to show their non-sense.

Doh... I posted 2 secs after you.
Ignore me. You had me worried.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Sounds Pelagian to me save for the "if"s. Works salvation based on "if"s.
Since the "if"s (premises) are false it follows that 'works salvation' is also not possible.

My Guess


Well, sinless people don't go to hell but I can count those individuals on the fingers of a cow's hoof.
Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Matt. 7:18

Thank you, I was playing the Pelagian role

 

[Ladodgers6]

Doh... I posted 2 secs after you.
Ignore me. You had me worried.

No, don't worry about it, we need to discuss their false teaching and refute it with Scripture.

 

[fastfredy0]

Thank you, I was playing the Pelagian role

LOL.... I really liked your previous posts and all of a sudden that post took a sharp turn 'stage left' ...lol
So easy to be misunderstood on a forum.

 

[Josheb]

Everyone who has heard the salvific message has the ability to choose (select from possible alternatives) to believe leading to salvation.

And what do you do with...

1) Those Jesus spoke of in the context of Isaiah 6:9? Those words are used in every single gospel and in the epistolary. Jesus explicitly stated the hardness of the hearer's heart prevented them from understanding. Jesus just as explicitly stated those audiences were the fulfillment of Isaih's prophecy in which some would NOT be able to understand even though they heard. Jesus also predicated their blindness and deafness on the condition of him healing them.

John 8:43
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word.

2) In Romans 9 Paul described how God's (salvific) mercy has nothing to do with the cognitive faculties of sinful humans, how a person wills or how they work (walk). Paul explicitly states not only does it NOT have anything to do with those conditions, that it is dependent solely upon the will and purpose of God, Paul explicitly appeals to exampples in God's word where salvation (temporal, soteriological, and/or eschatological) was decided before the person or group ever existed.


What do you do with those examples?

 

[Josheb]

Would you be willing to critically engage my comment (here) and demonstrate how my belief is not a choice? I was claiming that my belief is a choice, but you deny "any possibility [that] any claim of belief as choice has any veracity."

Here's what I am willing to do regarding that post:

If you start anew with an "@"Josheb (so I know the post is specifically requesting my reply AND summarize the single point you want me to address, then I will do so. Post 44 is too long and too diverse to know what you're asking so you'll have to specify what you want comment on. If more than one point then use more than one post, but make sure you're using the "@" so it will show up in my notifications feed.

One more condition: keep it op-relevant. I don't do illogical digressions, non sequiturs, or hijacks.

 

[fastfredy0]

And what do you do with...

1) Those Jesus spoke of in the context of Isaiah 6:9? Those words are used in every single gospel and in the epistolary. Jesus explicitly stated the hardness of the hearer's heart prevented them from understanding. Jesus just as explicitly stated those audiences were the fulfillment of Isaih's prophecy in which some would NOT be able to understand even though they heard. Jesus also predicated their blindness and deafness on the condition of him healing them.

John 8:43
Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word.

2) In Romans 9 Paul described how God's (salvific) mercy has nothing to do with the cognitive faculties of sinful humans, how a person wills or how they work (walk). Paul explicitly states not only does it NOT have anything to do with those conditions, that it is dependent solely upon the will and purpose of God, Paul explicitly appeals to exampples in God's word where salvation (temporal, soteriological, and/or eschatological) was decided before the person or group ever existed.


What do you do with those examples?

To keep things on track I will state that these questions are in regard to whether we have a choice to believe the salvific gospel.

Definition of Choice:

• To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.
• To prefer above others.

After one hears the gospel they all have a CHOICE (they prefer/desire) to believe or not believe per dictionary definition above.

Now, if you want to get deeper into the weeds and ask what determines a person CHOICE, then verses like Isaiah 6:9 and Romans 9 tell us the God shapes our desires such that we freely CHOOSE according to the desires God has given us.
To summarize: In regard to the salvific gospel; we choose freely according to our desires and God shapes our desires.

 

[Josheb]

To keep things on track I will state that these questions are in regard to whether we have a choice to believe the salvific gospel.

Definition of Choice:

• To select from a number of possible alternatives; decide on and pick out.
• To prefer above others.

After one hears the gospel they all have a CHOICE (they prefer/desire) to believe or not believe per dictionary definition above.

That is insufficent because no one believes mere intellectual assent is in any way salvific. The Jews believed in a Messiah. They believed in the Messiah. They simply did not believe Jesus was that guy. I read an atheist's comment recently where the atheist was reported to believe Jesus really lived and he was really crucified and he really came back to life after actually being dead. When asked about this his response was simple, "Strange things happen in history."

That guy made choices to believe the purported facts of history. Was he saved?

Now, if you want to get deeper into the weeds....

Please do not mischaracterize this conversation or my posts as "weeds."

....and ask what determines a person CHOICE, then verses like Isaiah 6:9 and Romans 9 tell us the God shapes our desires such that we freely CHOOSE according to the desires God has given us.

My still-unanswered op-relevant questions to you have nothing to do with what determines a person's choice(s). I simply asked how you reconcile the two examples with the statement, "Everyone who has heard the salvific message has the ability to choose (select from possible alternatives) to believe leading to salvation," because those two examples (I can cite many others) would appear to preclude those peoples' ability to choose. The first example explicitly states those people are precluded from any such choice. The second example precludes any such choice for other reasons; namely the inability to choose before being born.

Why wasn't the question asked answered?

Why isn't the failure to answer the question asked correctly considered getting into the "weeds"? Why did you fail to see your own failure and implicate me? Why would you think I wouldn't catch that? Why would you think I would collaborate with that subterfuge?

Get back on topic and answer the question asked. You said everyone who has heard the salvific message has an ability to choose but there are several examples in scripture precluding that position. How do you reconcile the scriptural examples cited with the claim made?

To summarize: In regard to the salvific gospel; we choose freely according to our desires and God shapes our desires.

The examples I cited prove otherwise. The hard-hearted people fulfilling what God told Isaiah were prevented from choosing. So too was Esau (and many others). And I asked how you reconcile that and now we have the first exchange come and gone and I still do not have an answer to that question. How many times must the question be asked before receiving a cogent answer and not a non sequitur response. Do I need to ask more than once?


What do you make of the blinded and deaf audience found in the gospels and the Esau/clay precedent found in Romans 9?

 

[TB2]

Are there many here who do not like or accept Calvinism? For those who do not, do you think it is a Christian system? If not, what is suggested for the Calvinist who thinks he’s Christian? Or is it the other way around?
And the anti-Calvinist’s are wrong,
This could be quite confusing for many people.

Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?
You might like something and think it is interesting but if there really is no evidence? Why would anyone or should I say, how can anyone believe it. Can someone make themselves believe? I don’t think so.

How can someone believe then? "They must have evidence."And by another person explaining something to you is not evidence, that’s information. Which puts it right back at the beginning again.

So how do we get evidence? I think in this may be the answer. From reading/studying and thinking it over, I believed in Jesus because it became evident that he was who the scripture says he was, I just knew he was.
Not because people told me who he was or what he did. If I had to believe, or, “make myself believe” I don’t know if I could have gone it. I mean, how?

"Is belief a choice?"

I don't know. Yes and no (?). Decision making ability of any kind would of course not be possible without God's creating us and giving that ability in the first place

 

[Carbon]

"Is belief a choice?"

Sure, why wouldn’t it be.

I don't know. Yes and no (?).

It’s a choice. No one believes for you

Decision making ability of any kind would of course not be possible without God's creating us and giving that ability in the first place

Well, of course

 

[TB2]

Sure, why wouldn’t it be.

It’s a choice. No one believes for you

Well, of course

Then I'm confused by this statement in your OP

"Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?"

 

[Carbon]

Then I'm confused by this statement in your OP

Why?

"Well I personally do not believe that any man has the ability to choose to believe. I mean. How can someone choose to believe anything?"

Can you make yourself believe?

Or, if one is spiritually dead (the natural man) and is unable to believe unto salvation, can he just make himself believe?