• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Was MacArthur a dispensationalist?

There are those who hold to Covenant theology who would hold that God ceased dealing with Israel the nation and the jews after AD 70 though
Are we talking about what CT is? Or are we talking about what some people who profess CT think it is---their opinion iow?
There are those who hold to Covenant theology who would hold that God ceased dealing with Israel the nation and the jews after AD 70 though, while some of us while holding to saved jews and gentiles are in same Body under same Shepard Lord Jesus right now, will still deal with national Israel and bless them at His Second Coming event
And some don't believe that. ???
 
Which view?
The Israel will be dealt with as a nation for a 1000 years.

Did you not read my post #19? Do you have any comment on it or is it just something to not be considered when one decides what it is they want to believe?
 
There are those who hold to Covenant theology who would hold that God ceased dealing with Israel the nation and the jews after AD 70 though, while some of us while holding to saved jews and gentiles are in same Body under same Shepard Lord Jesus right now, will still deal with national Israel and bless them at His Second Coming event
Where does it teach that God will deal with national Israel? You seem to be pointing to God having two plans, two people, the Jews and the Church?
 
There are those who hold to Covenant theology who would hold that God ceased dealing with Israel the nation and the jews after AD 70 though, while some of us while holding to saved jews and gentiles are in same Body under same Shepard Lord Jesus right now, will still deal with national Israel and bless them at His Second Coming event
God has never given up on Israel; there has always been a remnant.
 
What in particular? If I may ask.
Actually I should have split the quote of @JesusFan.
while some of us while holding to saved jews and gentiles are in same Body under same Shepard Lord Jesus right now, will still deal with national Israel and bless them at His Second Coming event
Some don't believe God will deal with national Israel separately from the church, is the particular.

And the question marks in my post are because I don't understand why his responses are "some believe this, and some believe that" as though all beliefs are equally valid and truth is unknowable. Instead of dealing with what is said and supporting what he is saying. It is a particular bee in my bonnet.
 
Some don't believe God will deal with national Israel separately from the church, is the particular.
I dont believe He will either. I do not agree with replacement theology. No one replaces Israel. God has never left or will ever leave Israel, the elect Jews, but there are no promises in scripture of God dealing with National Israel as the dispensationalists believe.
 
I dont believe He will either. I do not agree with replacement theology. No one replaces Israel. God has never left or will ever leave Israel, the elect Jews, but there are no promises in scripture of God dealing with National Israel as the dispensationalists believe.
What seems to be ignored is the type of covenant the OC was and the type of covenant the NC is. One author calls the OC a land grant covenant and though it is not only that, but also that. Keeping the land was always conditional upon obedience to the Law. They broke that covenant and God did exactly what he said he woud do. He took the land from them and scattered them into other nations. No nation, no king, and after 70a.d. no priests and no temple.

Sure, there is a nation called Israel now, and many scattered Jews escaped to it during WW ll. But it is only approximately the land promised to Abraham and does not have a covenant relationship with God as a nation. That covenant has become obsolete.
 
Where does it teach that God will deal with national Israel? You seem to be pointing to God having two plans, two people, the Jews and the Church?
Taking the prophecies that all eyes shall behold Him at second coming, Israel shall grieve and mourn for Him as for a son, a fountain of salvation then opened in Jerusalem, and Israel shall be reborn as a nation unto God
 
Actually I should have split the quote of @JesusFan.

Some don't believe God will deal with national Israel separately from the church, is the particular.

And the question marks in my post are because I don't understand why his responses are "some believe this, and some believe that" as though all beliefs are equally valid and truth is unknowable. Instead of dealing with what is said and supporting what he is saying. It is a particular bee in my bonnet.
Was just trying to state that even among those of us holding to Covenant theology, there are differences regarding eschatology and Israel , depending if Amil/premil or Post
 
What seems to be ignored is the type of covenant the OC was and the type of covenant the NC is. One author calls the OC a land grant covenant and though it is not only that, but also that. Keeping the land was always conditional upon obedience to the Law. They broke that covenant and God did exactly what he said he woud do. He took the land from them and scattered them into other nations. No nation, no king, and after 70a.d. no priests and no temple.

Sure, there is a nation called Israel now, and many scattered Jews escaped to it during WW ll. But it is only approximately the land promised to Abraham and does not have a covenant relationship with God as a nation. That covenant has become obsolete.
Yes, we all agree that the OC is no longer in effect, as replaced by the NC, but question is does God deal with national Israel again in the Future, or stopped all dealings with them after AD 70?
 
Taking the prophecies that all eyes shall behold Him at second coming, Israel shall grieve and mourn for Him as for a son, a fountain of salvation then opened in Jerusalem, and Israel shall be reborn as a nation unto God
Who is the true Israel of God?
 
Yes, we all agree that the OC is no longer in effect, as replaced by the NC, but question is does God deal with national Israel again in the Future, or stopped all dealings with them after AD 70?
The question of whether God deals with national Israel again in the future or if he stopped all dealings with them after AD 70 actually presents a position of only two possibilities and confuses categories. The first concerns a nation (land and boundaries) the second concerns and ethnic people.

Not all ethnic Jewish people live in Israel, so the second confounds ethnicity and nation with no clear distinction.

I see the Bible teaching that the possession of land given to the descendants of Jacob was a covenantal agreement with covenant terms. It was what is known as a bi-lateral covenant. The covenant maker---God---sets the terms of the agreement. And the terms set the consequence for disobedience and promise for obedience. One of the consequences of disobedience was losing the land.

Deut 28:63-64

“And as the LORD took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the LORD will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

And the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other…”


That happened. And its served the purpose of God on the day of Pentecost when the Jews that were scattered into Gentile lands were present in Jerusalem at Pentecost and those who believed carried the good news back to their homes, beginning the spread of the gospel to the whole world.

When national Israel and its leaders as a whole rejected Christ by crucifying him in AD70 came the final judgement on national Israel as a whole. The temple was destroyed signifying God's covenantal presence left Jerusalem and all possibility of that covenantal worship with its priests and sacrifices could ever be restored according to the Law. Christ is now the temple and his church through union with him. (John 2:19-21; Eph 2:19-22).

So no I do not see the Bible teaching that God will backtrack and deal with Israel as a nation again in the sense of re-establishing its boundaries and separating them from the church for a thousand years while he deals with them. God has already set his King on Zion (Ps 2).

Did he stop dealing with Jews after 70 a.d.? He never stops dealing with anyone.
 
The question of whether God deals with national Israel again in the future or if he stopped all dealings with them after AD 70 actually presents a position of only two possibilities and confuses categories. The first concerns a nation (land and boundaries) the second concerns and ethnic people.

Not all ethnic Jewish people live in Israel, so the second confounds ethnicity and nation with no clear distinction.

I see the Bible teaching that the possession of land given to the descendants of Jacob was a covenantal agreement with covenant terms. It was what is known as a bi-lateral covenant. The covenant maker---God---sets the terms of the agreement. And the terms set the consequence for disobedience and promise for obedience. One of the consequences of disobedience was losing the land.

Deut 28:63-64

“And as the LORD took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the LORD will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

And the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other…”


That happened. And its served the purpose of God on the day of Pentecost when the Jews that were scattered into Gentile lands were present in Jerusalem at Pentecost and those who believed carried the good news back to their homes, beginning the spread of the gospel to the whole world.

When national Israel and its leaders as a whole rejected Christ by crucifying him in AD70 came the final judgement on national Israel as a whole. The temple was destroyed signifying God's covenantal presence left Jerusalem and all possibility of that covenantal worship with its priests and sacrifices could ever be restored according to the Law. Christ is now the temple and his church through union with him. (John 2:19-21; Eph 2:19-22).

So no I do not see the Bible teaching that God will backtrack and deal with Israel as a nation again in the sense of re-establishing its boundaries and separating them from the church for a thousand years while he deals with them. God has already set his King on Zion (Ps 2).

Did he stop dealing with Jews after 70 a.d.? He never stops dealing with anyone.
I would see the eschatology of the NT as being Historical premil, so like a Spurgeon, do still see at end of this age going into the Messianic Age that God still has Israel proper plans moving forward
Charles Spurgeon (1834–1892) believed in a literal, future restoration of national Israel to their land and their subsequent conversion to faith in Christ, holding that they would have a prominent place in the millennial kingdom. He taught that Israel would be reorganized as a nation, possibly with a monarchy, and that their national conversion would lead to worldwide blessing.
The Spurgeon Archive
The Spurgeon Archive +2
Key aspects of Spurgeon's view included:
  • Literal Restoration: He believed prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to a physical return of the Jewish people to the Promised Land.
  • National Conversion: Spurgeon taught that Israel would eventually recognize Jesus as their Messiah, saying, "the nation of Israel never can [apostatize]... she shall be effectually and permanently converted".
  • Role in the Millennium: He expected a "political restoration" where Israel would be a nation again, followed by a time when "the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously".
  • Distinction from Dispensationalism: While holding to these views, this Reddit post indicates that Spurgeon was generally opposed to modern dispensationalist theology, instead holding a view more aligned with Historic Premillennialism.
    The Spurgeon Archive
    The Spurgeon Archive +4
Spurgeon often emphasized that although Israel had been scattered and blinded, God had not abandoned them. He viewed their restoration as a key event in the fulfillment of God's promises.
 
I would see the eschatology of the NT as being Historical premil, so like a Spurgeon, do still see at end of this age going into the Messianic Age that God still has Israel proper plans moving forward
Charles Spurgeon (1834–1892) believed in a literal, future restoration of national Israel to their land and their subsequent conversion to faith in Christ, holding that they would have a prominent place in the millennial kingdom. He taught that Israel would be reorganized as a nation, possibly with a monarchy, and that their national conversion would lead to worldwide blessing.
The Spurgeon Archive
The Spurgeon Archive +2
Key aspects of Spurgeon's view included:
  • Literal Restoration: He believed prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to a physical return of the Jewish people to the Promised Land.
  • National Conversion: Spurgeon taught that Israel would eventually recognize Jesus as their Messiah, saying, "the nation of Israel never can [apostatize]... she shall be effectually and permanently converted".
  • Role in the Millennium: He expected a "political restoration" where Israel would be a nation again, followed by a time when "the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously".
  • Distinction from Dispensationalism: While holding to these views, this Reddit post indicates that Spurgeon was generally opposed to modern dispensationalist theology, instead holding a view more aligned with Historic Premillennialism.
    The Spurgeon Archive
    The Spurgeon Archive +4
Spurgeon often emphasized that although Israel had been scattered and blinded, God had not abandoned them. He viewed their restoration as a key event in the fulfillment of God's promises.
No doubt we pick and choose what view we prefer and do so according to how we are reading Scripture. And it is very difficult to be reading the promises and prophecies given to Israel and interpret through a rigidly literal hermeneutic. Especially when we are surrounded by teaching and books and videos that place the presuppositions in our mind from the start.

The question is, does that produce consistent truth within the full counsel of God or does it present contradictions and break the flow of redemption according to Scripture? I began my walk with Christ as premil, pre trib dispensationalism though I did not know that is what it was. And something within me recoiled at a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on earth working with the Jews and national Israel, while the raptured church waited---doing what?---for the fullness of our redemption. I never settled the issue until I was presented first with Reformed theology doctrinally and then eschatalogically.

And what I discovered that was true about myself and the dispensational/Arminianist (and Charismatic!) churches I attended is that not even the preachers knew how to read and interpret the Bible so all things remain consistent. Naturally then, those sitting trustingly in the pews do not learn how to do so from their pastors.

If a person begins at the very beginning interpreting through a lens of redemptive history, as though the Bible were one story with many parts---which it is--- the story of redemption with Jesus as the constant focus and protagonist (the "main character" who is righting a wrong and winning a war), as was announced in Gen 3:15; and if it is recognized that God forms a relationship with humans and acts in our history through covenant instead of viewing it as different times in which God tests and judges mankind; and with the end game which we have both in OT prophecy and at the end of this story in Rev 21-22; then national Israel never becomes a separate focus of redemption instead of Jesus, or an entity that God returns to deal with land and ethnicity wise after he has secured the church and removed them from the earth.

Instead, Israel becomes what it always was spiritually speaking---and that is not spiritualizing the scriptures but agreeing with Paul when he refers to spiritual Israel, and the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Israel---the holy people of God that he has given to the Son and for whom the Son died to redeem. Hebrews tells us that the OC has become obsolete. Completely and faithfully fulfilled in Christ, bringing in the NC. The covenant community---the people of God---the church (and the word translated church is the word meaning "the called out ones".

That does not mean that he has abandoned Jews. He calls ethnic Jews on a daily basis, I am sure, the same way he calls men and women from all nations. But land and the nation have already served its purpose as land and nation. Scripture, correctly interpreted from a Christ central perspective never says God is going to go backwards and reinstate the OC. Never.
 
No doubt we pick and choose what view we prefer and do so according to how we are reading Scripture. And it is very difficult to be reading the promises and prophecies given to Israel and interpret through a rigidly literal hermeneutic. Especially when we are surrounded by teaching and books and videos that place the presuppositions in our mind from the start.

The question is, does that produce consistent truth within the full counsel of God or does it present contradictions and break the flow of redemption according to Scripture? I began my walk with Christ as premil, pre trib dispensationalism though I did not know that is what it was. And something within me recoiled at a literal thousand-year reign of Christ on earth working with the Jews and national Israel, while the raptured church waited---doing what?---for the fullness of our redemption. I never settled the issue until I was presented first with Reformed theology doctrinally and then eschatalogically.

And what I discovered that was true about myself and the dispensational/Arminianist (and Charismatic!) churches I attended is that not even the preachers knew how to read and interpret the Bible so all things remain consistent. Naturally then, those sitting trustingly in the pews do not learn how to do so from their pastors.

If a person begins at the very beginning interpreting through a lens of redemptive history, as though the Bible were one story with many parts---which it is--- the story of redemption with Jesus as the constant focus and protagonist (the "main character" who is righting a wrong and winning a war), as was announced in Gen 3:15; and if it is recognized that God forms a relationship with humans and acts in our history through covenant instead of viewing it as different times in which God tests and judges mankind; and with the end game which we have both in OT prophecy and at the end of this story in Rev 21-22; then national Israel never becomes a separate focus of redemption instead of Jesus, or an entity that God returns to deal with land and ethnicity wise after he has secured the church and removed them from the earth.

Instead, Israel becomes what it always was spiritually speaking---and that is not spiritualizing the scriptures but agreeing with Paul when he refers to spiritual Israel, and the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Israel---the holy people of God that he has given to the Son and for whom the Son died to redeem. Hebrews tells us that the OC has become obsolete. Completely and faithfully fulfilled in Christ, bringing in the NC. The covenant community---the people of God---the church (and the word translated church is the word meaning "the called out ones".

That does not mean that he has abandoned Jews. He calls ethnic Jews on a daily basis, I am sure, the same way he calls men and women from all nations. But land and the nation have already served its purpose as land and nation. Scripture, correctly interpreted from a Christ central perspective never says God is going to go backwards and reinstate the OC. Never.
Historical premil does not state that we are going back to the OC, just that there is a coming earthly Kingdom with Jesus ruling over His Kingdom as the King, and all nations shall come up to worship Him and will be obeying Him at that time
 
The question of whether God deals with national Israel again in the future or if he stopped all dealings with them after AD 70 actually presents a position of only two possibilities and confuses categories. The first concerns a nation (land and boundaries) the second concerns and ethnic people.
There is nothing in scripture about God dealing with ethnic Isreal seperatly.
So no I do not see the Bible teaching that God will backtrack and deal with Israel as a nation again in the sense of re-establishing its boundaries and separating them from the church for a thousand years while he deals with them. God has already set his King on Zion (Ps 2).

Did he stop dealing with Jews after 70 a.d.? He never stops dealing with anyone.
God never stopped dealing with the Jews. The elect Jews never rejected Jesus.

I believe we agree, I'm just putting in my two cents.
 
Historical premil does not state that we are going back to the OC, just that there is a coming earthly Kingdom with Jesus ruling over His Kingdom as the King, and all nations shall come up to worship Him and will be obeying Him at that time
Do you believe a rapture of the church prior to a seven-year tribulation?

In what way is God dealing with national/ethnic Israel during these thousand years of his earthly reign?

What is the purpose of Jesus reigning as King in national Israel when he is reigning as King of kings now from heaven and at the consummation of our redemption, comes to dwell with the glorified saints on the redeemed/renewed earth as we see in Rev 21?
 
Back
Top