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Was MacArthur a dispensationalist?

Right now Spiritual israel is the Church, but that dies not preclude God dealing with national Israel in last days
Brother, I respectfully ask, where do you get that info? All the elect, whether Jew or gentile, are part of the church. The church did not, nor does it ever take over for the Jews. The church is the Israel of God.

I know some Dispensationalists claim that because there has been a partial hardening that happened to Israel, we Amillennialists claim the church as a replacement, but Amils did not come up with that; that's a strawman from the Dispensationalists. But this hardening is speaking of the non-elect Jews rejecting Jesus; it never speaks of the elect Jews.

25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

Paul does not say, then after this (partial hardening), all Israel shall be saved. When Paul says, "all Israel will be saved," there is nothing to prove Paul is looking to the end of the age, but instead looking at the whole gospel age, which is from Christ's first and Second coming. Scripture also shows Paul sees and elect Israel (A Remnant) throughout the gospel age.
 
@JesusFan
Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved;

O Robertson, in his book, "The Israel of God," asks this question.
What does Paul mean by "all Israel?"

1) All Israel refers to all ethnic descendants of Abraham.
2) "all Israel" refers to all ethnic descendants of Abraham living at a future time at which God shall initiate a special working among the Jews.
3) "all Israel" refers to the "mass" or "majority" of Jews living at the time of a special saving activity of God in the future.
4) "all Israel" refers to all the elect Israelites within the community of Israel.
5) "all Israel" refers both to Jews and gentiles which together constitute the church of Christ, the Israel of God.


What does everyone choose, 1-5?
 
@JesusFan
Romans 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved;

O Robertson, in his book, "The Israel of God," asks this question.
What does Paul mean by "all Israel?"

1) All Israel refers to all ethnic descendants of Abraham.
2) "all Israel" refers to all ethnic descendants of Abraham living at a future time at which God shall initiate a special working among the Jews.
3) "all Israel" refers to the "mass" or "majority" of Jews living at the time of a special saving activity of God in the future.
4) "all Israel" refers to all the elect Israelites within the community of Israel.
5) "all Israel" refers both to Jews and gentiles which together constitute the church of Christ, the Israel of God.


What does everyone choose, 1-5?
It could be 4 and 5, depending on how one is looking at it. Or simply all of the elect Jew and Gentile alike. Only the elect are ever saved (Romans 9:6).
 
Right now Spiritual israel is the Church, but that dies not preclude God dealing with national Israel in last days
What are the last days?
 
I would see the eschatology of the NT as being Historical premil, so like a Spurgeon, do still see at end of this age going into the Messianic Age that God still has Israel proper plans moving forward
Charles Spurgeon (1834–1892) believed in a literal, future restoration of national Israel to their land and their subsequent conversion to faith in Christ, holding that they would have a prominent place in the millennial kingdom. He taught that Israel would be reorganized as a nation, possibly with a monarchy, and that their national conversion would lead to worldwide blessing.
The Spurgeon Archive
The Spurgeon Archive +2
Key aspects of Spurgeon's view included:
  • Literal Restoration: He believed prophecies in the Old Testament pointed to a physical return of the Jewish people to the Promised Land.
  • National Conversion: Spurgeon taught that Israel would eventually recognize Jesus as their Messiah, saying, "the nation of Israel never can [apostatize]... she shall be effectually and permanently converted".
  • Role in the Millennium: He expected a "political restoration" where Israel would be a nation again, followed by a time when "the King Messiah shall sit, and reign among his people gloriously".
  • Distinction from Dispensationalism: While holding to these views, this Reddit post indicates that Spurgeon was generally opposed to modern dispensationalist theology, instead holding a view more aligned with Historic Premillennialism.
    The Spurgeon Archive
    The Spurgeon Archive +4
Spurgeon often emphasized that although Israel had been scattered and blinded, God had not abandoned them. He viewed their restoration as a key event in the fulfillment of God's promises.
Wondering does that mean all Israel previous, too? If not, then this doesn't sound like Israel (national) at all, but just the "Church". The elect. Or is there some reason for those of national Israel still alive at that time that makes them more special than those that came before them?
 
It could be 4 and 5, depending on how one is looking at it. Or simply all of the elect Jew and Gentile alike. Only the elect are ever saved (Romans 9:6).
Yes I agree. I am not 100% on 4 or 5, but as you said I agree.
 
Wondering does that mean all Israel previous, too? If not, then this doesn't sound like Israel (national) at all, but just the "Church". The elect. Or is there some reason for those of national Israel still alive at that time that makes them more special than those that came before them?
Good point. It kind of pulls the rug out from under the notion of "all Israel" meaning "all Israel". Which pulls the rug out from under the idea that it takes 1000 years of Jesus reigning in a restored nation Israel as their king as a means of keeping his promise that Israel will always have a king on David's throne.

Didn't they lose a human king long before Jesus was even born and have never had one since? And didn't there cease to even be an Israel (northern kingdom) since it was sent into captivity by Assyria? There was only a Judah left until it too went into captivity in Babylon.

True, God renewed the covenant with them and brought them back because of the prayer of Daniel and to fulfill his promise to Jeremiah. And mainly because Judah, the tribe of David, was the host from which Christ would come. Christ the King, from Judah, but King of the whole world, rising from the grave, ascending back to the Father, given all authority, crowned as King, not just of Israel, but the whole creation. He is not awaiting his coronation as Dispensationalism and historic premil claim. If he had not already been victorious over his enemies at Calvary, none would be saved.
 
Yes I agree. I am not 100% on 4 or 5, but as you said I agree.
Does it make a difference that I said 4 and 5, not 4 or 5?
 
Does it make a difference that I said 4 and 5, not 4 or 5?
No. I understand and agree. I can’t decide which one 100%.
Though I’m thinking 4
 
It could be 4 and 5, depending on how one is looking at it. Or simply all of the elect Jew and Gentile alike. Only the elect are ever saved (Romans 9:6).
Also think 2 and 4 are also viable options
 
Brother, I respectfully ask, where do you get that info? All the elect, whether Jew or gentile, are part of the church. The church did not, nor does it ever take over for the Jews. The church is the Israel of God.

I know some Dispensationalists claim that because there has been a partial hardening that happened to Israel, we Amillennialists claim the church as a replacement, but Amils did not come up with that; that's a strawman from the Dispensationalists. But this hardening is speaking of the non-elect Jews rejecting Jesus; it never speaks of the elect Jews.

25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:

Paul does not say, then after this (partial hardening), all Israel shall be saved. When Paul says, "all Israel will be saved," there is nothing to prove Paul is looking to the end of the age, but instead looking at the whole gospel age, which is from Christ's first and Second coming. Scripture also shows Paul sees and elect Israel (A Remnant) throughout the gospel age.
Agree with your last point, but also hold that does not preclude God still dealing with national Israel to prepare them to meet the Lord jesus at second coming and say then blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord
 
Wondering does that mean all Israel previous, too? If not, then this doesn't sound like Israel (national) at all, but just the "Church". The elect. Or is there some reason for those of national Israel still alive at that time that makes them more special than those that came before them?
not more special, just still alive as a majority of them would have already died by Antichrist
 
Good point. It kind of pulls the rug out from under the notion of "all Israel" meaning "all Israel". Which pulls the rug out from under the idea that it takes 1000 years of Jesus reigning in a restored nation Israel as their king as a means of keeping his promise that Israel will always have a king on David's throne.

Didn't they lose a human king long before Jesus was even born and have never had one since? And didn't there cease to even be an Israel (northern kingdom) since it was sent into captivity by Assyria? There was only a Judah left until it too went into captivity in Babylon.

True, God renewed the covenant with them and brought them back because of the prayer of Daniel and to fulfill his promise to Jeremiah. And mainly because Judah, the tribe of David, was the host from which Christ would come. Christ the King, from Judah, but King of the whole world, rising from the grave, ascending back to the Father, given all authority, crowned as King, not just of Israel, but the whole creation. He is not awaiting his coronation as Dispensationalism and historic premil claim. If he had not already been victorious over his enemies at Calvary, none would be saved.
he has not yet thought been set up and established as the king over Hs own Kingdome, as that awaits the future messianic Age
 
he has not yet thought been set up and established as the king over Hs own Kingdome, as that awaits the future messianic Age
His own kingdom is the whole world. He is God. National Israel is a small plot of land. King Jesus has no need or purposes to sit as king over a small plot of land on earth.
 
The Great tribulation time right before Second Coming event
Are you sure?


Acts 2:17​

“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams.’

Hebrews 1:1–2​

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, **but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son---
Might it more likely be the time between the two advents?
 
Agree with your last point, but also hold that does not preclude God still dealing with national Israel to prepare them to meet the Lord jesus at second coming and say then blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord
Would you point out some of the Old Testament, Israel, and the practices that weren't Old Covenant types and shadows and prophecies pointing to Christ? Ya know, something independent of Christ and will be fulfilled by national Israel.
 
McArthur did not agree with Covenant theology; he was a firm proponent of dispensationalism.
The two systems are not compatible.
Please go with what John MacArthur actually stated himself. He was asked point blank in a questions and answers session whether he was a dispensationalist or not. He basically said no, but that he considers himself a leaky dispensationalist. So, not at all a firm proponent. The two systems are not completely incompatible. That is not to say there aren't extreme differences that cannot be reconciled without a lot of work. However, there are some differences that seem to based on a lack of critical thought. This is where you have one side saying the other side believes this, and the other side comes right out and says that isn't true. The exercise of critical thought processes would quickly resolve this.
 
Where does it teach that God will deal with national Israel? You seem to be pointing to God having two plans, two people, the Jews and the Church?
Romans 9-11. There are other places in Romans, but this is Paul's main thesis. There are also prophecies in the Old Testament teaching that God will deal with national Israel. Of course, those are spiritualized away because so many don't like the outcome. It runs against their beliefs.

God is still dealing with the nation of Israel, though it is different then the Gentiles. Why? The nation of Israel is under active judgment by God, while the Gentiles are not. While the church is not. Yet there are Jews in the church who are affected by this judgment, as they are still a part of the nation of Israel. I did not say they were under judgment, but that they are affected by it. Jewish believers in Christ were also killed by the Nazis. The reason is because they were Jews. It had nothing to do with religion, but it is part of the judgment of God upon the nation of Israel, not upon specific individuals.

God will deal with the nation of Israel. There is A LOT of prophecy in the Old Testament that attests to that. And then Paul basically cries out about it from the depth of emotion as he himself was a Jew. He talks about God's final dealing with Israel, and Israel's salvation as being like life from the dead. It will be that stark a comparison between Israel prior to God's final dealings, and Israel after God's final dealings. It will be that unexpected, and that big of a deal. It will be such a big deal that it is the same as someone dying and coming back to life. (And we aren't talking about zombies here.)

There is one plan. Even with over 8 1/2 billion distinct human beings alive today, each with their own path, there is still only one plan. Even with two groups, Jews and Gentiles, two groups, the nation of Israel and the church, there is still only one plan. Though the details may differ in places, there is still only one plan. All it takes is a little critical thinking to realize what is wrong with the view that if we say there are two distinct groups, that there can't be one plan that includes both. Again, consider 8 1/2 billion different lines going into one block, but only one line comes out, and that one line represents all 8 1/2 billion lines that went in. That block is one plan, and the result of that one plan. Many inputs, one output. All one has to do is figure out all that one block represents.
 
Brother, I respectfully ask, where do you get that info? All the elect, whether Jew or gentile, are part of the church. The church did not, nor does it ever take over for the Jews. The church is the Israel of God.
The verse that mentions the "true Israel of God" is not speaking of the church. There are two distinct groups separated by the word AND. Those who hear what Paul is saying and does it, AND the true Israel of God. The true Israel of God are those Jews who are BOTH physical descendants of Abraham (Israel), AND spiritual descendants of Abraham through Isaac. (the TRUE Israel of God). There are those of Israel who are not of Israel. They are not the true Israel of God. Only those of Israel who are of Israel are the true Israel of God. The elect remnant of Israel. The statement you make above, the church is the Israel of God is what speaks to replacement theology.
I know some Dispensationalists claim that because there has been a partial hardening that happened to Israel, we Amillennialists claim the church as a replacement, but Amils did not come up with that; that's a strawman from the Dispensationalists. But this hardening is speaking of the non-elect Jews rejecting Jesus; it never speaks of the elect Jews.
That is NOT what the hardening is speaking of. You should read the passage again:
"13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 if by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Here is the framing of the logical argument:
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 for if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

And now the important part:
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

And then comes your verse:
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written:
Make note of the first word... FOR. That word means that what follows is connected to what came before. So Paul tells the Gentiles the mystery, that God will reattach the Jews, the cut off branches, to the tree when they go from unbelief to belief. That is the mystery that Paul wants the Gentiles not to be ignorant of. Hence his whole bit on not being wise in your own estimation, as you seem to be exercising wisdom in your own estimation.

Paul says that the unbelief which is visualized in the partial blindness/hardening of Israel in that, while seeing the truth, the aren't "seeing the truth", thus lost in unbelieve, this condition will only remain until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. Once the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, this blindness/hardeness that represents the unbelief of the Jews, will be lifted, and they will believe. As such, they will be reattached to the tree. This is what Paul is saying above.

So the argument has the premise of Jews cut off from the tree for disbelief (not all of these branches are cut off, just those in unbelief), these Jews who are cut off are under partial blindness/hardness UNTIL (so this partial blindness/hardness will end) the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. When the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, the unbelief visualized by the partial blindness/hardness will be removed and the branches will be reattached to the tree.

Understand, I believe that it is the end of the age, and all the destruction at the end of Daniel 9 happens at the end of the times of the Gentiles as visualized by the Messianic Kingdom coming in at the end of Daniel 2. So only the 1/3rd of Israel mentioned by Zechariah, those who will be saved in the end, are alive when the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, and the times of the Gentiles comes to an end. So, only the elect remnant of Israel will still be alive, and they all shall be saved.
Paul does not say, then after this (partial hardening), all Israel shall be saved. When Paul says, "all Israel will be saved," there is nothing to prove Paul is looking to the end of the age, but instead looking at the whole gospel age, which is from Christ's first and Second coming. Scripture also shows Paul sees and elect Israel (A Remnant) throughout the gospel age.
Actually, even in what you posted, it says "and so" all Israel will be saved. That is a statement of conclusion. That is a statement of finality. That is a statement that comes at the end oof the timeline, so it is at the end of the age. There is NOTHING in the passage that gives any idea that Paul is looking at the whole gospel age. Paul is speaking of finality when he says AND SO all Israel will be saved.

" 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. "

God is being specific in HIs prophecy, as written here by Paul. God is clear He is speaking solely of Israel, and even mentions a covenant, of which only Jews have covenants. This covenatn is with the Jews, and speaks specifically of the Jews. I don't believe Paul is saying only Jews are saved. He is again defining the argument he made, showing that when he says all Israel will be saved, that that is exactly what he means. Specifically Israel, and specifically at that time, the end of the age. He further defines by saying:

" 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."

Israel rejected the Messiah, but God had purpose for it. They are enemies for the sake of the Gentiles. When they rejected, God sent the gospel to the Gentiles, thus the Gentiles profitted when Israel rejected the Messiah. As such, the rejection of Israel was the profit of the whole world, as Paul said earlier. However, Israel was the elect nation of God, so they are beloved of God. Why? Because God chose them? No. See the word FOR in 29? What is written there is affects the previous. God's gifts and calling were to the forefathers, so God considers Israel beloved for the sake of the forefathers. Hence God did not reject Israel when Israel rejected God. Verse 30 wraps it up. The Gentiles did not believe God, but received mercy because Israel rejected in unbelief, and solely because Israel rejected in unbelief. Israel became like the Gentiles in unbelief, that in the Gentiles belief and the mercy they received, Israel may obtain mercy, which means, Israel will turn and believe. For God has concluded them all in unbelief (Jews and Gentiles), that he might have mercy upon all (Jews and Gentiles.)

Why do you believe God will not have mercy on Israel?
 
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