Is anyone planning on...............

[Arial]

Arial.
I have no doubt you are a passionate Christian and bravo for that in our secular world.

I’ve also no doubt Christ is in all the denominations , where two or more or gathered.

But Ive also addressed the reasons why we will never agree.

If there is a way forward , I would like you to look through the eyed first generations of Christian’s for whom there was no New Testament, and if copies of scripture were found they were burned , just as Christians were tortured and killed. Even if they could afford the New Testament which didnt become a thing till centuries later when Christianity was made legal by Constantine , few if any could read it..

Even then the church flourished , the truth handed down primarily by those who were “sent “ and by word of mouth and letter
, and we can see what it believed in writings of such as iraneus and ignatius. It really doesn’t matter What those millenia later think scripture means, we know what apostles like John thought it meant.

The catholic mass is essentially as it has always been since early fathers wrote,
And that - Jesus - not the “ hierarchy” is the centre of our faith.

One thought I would like you to consider - I will start a thread for it on which we can unite - is how in our secular materialist world , how we convince the young people to come back. Attacking each other is part of the problem. But what is the solutio?

God bless !

I do not care. It assumes things and makes presuppositions that have no validity. The Bible is sufficient unto itself. I learn things from reading authors as does everyone. I come across various interpretations and doctrines. But I check everything within the Bible and more and more as I have grown in the knowledge of the Bible and putting it together as a unit, and for what it is----the very word of God given to us in this day, but given to others before those things became apart of the Bible, in the very life they lived and recorded, I am able to gain understanding on my own. And it is always expanding and growing but it never goes outside of what is in the Bible.

God reveals Himself to us in the Bible, and His plan of salvation. It is there we meet Jesus and discover who He is, what He did, how and why He did it. It is there and only there we find the way of salvation, a reconciling of ourselves to God. Who God reveals Himself to be must come into every doctrine and belief we have. To me your focus seems to be completely on the wrong thing. Listen to God not your religion, or the ECF. He speaks and reveals in His word. That is what I pray you would do.

If all you are going to do is continue to present the witness of the RCC of itself and continue to only put that junk forth rather than ever, ever, actually address a single thing I say, then I am not spending any more time with this.

 

[Mikeuk]

I do not care. It assumes things and makes presuppositions that have no validity. The Bible is sufficient unto itself. I learn things from reading authors as does everyone. I come across various interpretations and doctrines. But I check everything within the Bible and more and more as I have grown in the knowledge of the Bible and putting it together as a unit, and for what it is----the very word of God given to us in this day, but given to others before those things became apart of the Bible, in the very life they lived and recorded, I am able to gain understanding on my own. And it is always expanding and growing but it never goes outside of what is in the Bible.

God reveals Himself to us in the Bible, and His plan of salvation. It is there we meet Jesus and discover who He is, what He did, how and why He did it. It is there and only there we find the way of salvation, a reconciling of ourselves to God. Who God reveals Himself to be must come into every doctrine and belief we have. To me your focus seems to be completely on the wrong thing. Listen to God not your religion, or the ECF. He speaks and reveals in His word. That is what I pray you would do.

If all you are going to do is continue to present the witness of the RCC of itself and continue to only put that junk forth rather than ever, ever, actually address a single thing I say, then I am not spending any more time with this.

You should care.
Sola scriptura is the most divisive man made tradition in history. A doctrine made not by scripture but by the reformers,
It has allowed protestants to disagree on every material aspect of doctrine.
So it is also a provable #fail.
You rely on your own intellect , when told not to do so by scripture, proverbs 3:5-6

We know what the early fathers who were taught by apostles said it means .
Jesus taught John. John taught disciples , they taught others and wrote,

Those disciples spoke of a Eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by a bishop in succession. That it is what Jesus taught John, and so John meant., and so John taught,
You do not listen to the sources scripture tells you are sent romans 10:14, or stay true to tradition 2 thes 2:15

You forget Arial - I am not a cradle catholic - I came via mainstream Protestant, then evangelical.
Ive heard all the arguments , and I studied why thousands of Protestant ministers and theologians come back to Rome.

I studied history too and as a result saw all the holes in both Protestant and evangelical .
You should ask why your method is such a failure and results in disagreement
where THE Catholic Church has been United on such as eucharisy and necessity for succession to perform it for 2 millenia.
Even orthodox agree , on other than arcane philosophy.

Athanasius of the nicene creed / council said : before The New Testament canon was finalised,

“So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And again:’ Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine – and thus His Body is confected.”

We are consistent with scripture in correct meaning , and the early church and all since.

The reformationists threw the baby out with the bathwater. By thinking their intellect trumps what John taught.
My Protestant denomination could not even agree with itself
! It’s why I left!

One of the most fascinating issues for me .

Is the catholic mass is wall to wall scripture. Almost every line of liturgy is scripture,
None of the protestant or evangelical services were - despite the lip service they paid to scripture.!

Hymns and rock music and preachers listing their 3 millenium opinions don’t cut it for me.
Im interested in what the apostles and their disciples did and taught.

This has run its course. You can believe what you wish,
I am called to explain what we believe and why. I’m not called to make you believe it.
Science agrees with us on eucharistic miracles!

 

[Arial]

You should care.
Sola scriptura is the most divisive man made tradition in history. A doctrine made not by scripture but by the reformers,
It has allowed protestants to disagree on every material aspect of doctrine.
So it is also a provable #fail.
You rely on your own intellect , when told not to do so by scripture, proverbs 3:5-6

I understand fully why the Catholic religion hates it so much. Something you will never even discuss.
And I actually have a God given intellect and am expected to use it. Prov 19:2 Also it is not good for a soul to be without knowledge, and whoever makes haste with his feet misses his way.

Eccl 3:25 Without eyes there is no light; without knowledge there is no wisdom.

Does Prov 3:5-6 say to not lean on your own understanding but instead blindly lean on the understanding of men?

The fact that you say sola scriptura is the most divisive man made tradition in history and that it is not made by scripture but is an invention of the reformers, is irrelevant. I contend that the most divisive truly man made tradition in history was that of the Catholic church claiming to be the true church of Christ and therefore the only interpreter of scripture and the only voice of God for His church (also known in the OT as false prophets and corrupt priests), and enforcing their edicts upon the people, wiping out those who dared to not conform, joining to the state in order to do so. So divisive was it that an entire Reformation was sparked to stop the tyranny, and give Christ back to the people, and the light back to the world. Remember that era known as the Dark Ages? Let's talk about that for a bit.

 

[Arial]

Those disciples spoke of a Eucharist of the real flesh valid only if presided by a bishop in succession. That it is what Jesus taught John, and so John meant., and so John taught,
You do not listen to the sources scripture tells you are sent romans 10:14, or stay true to tradition 2 thes 2:15

I listen. But I listen to the Bible not the Catholic church's interpretation of the Bible. I do not happen to believe it has any authority to interpret scripture for me. Have you gnawed on the flesh of Christ yet this morning like a dog with a bone? Have you sinned with your hands and cut off your arm?

 

[Arial]

You forget Arial - I am not a cradle catholic - I came via mainstream Protestant, then evangelical.
Ive heard all the arguments , and I studied why thousands of Protestant ministers and theologians come back to Rome.

I studied history too and as a result saw all the holes in both Protestant and evangelical .
You should ask why your method is such a failure and results in disagreement
where THE Catholic Church has been United on such as eucharisy and necessity for succession to perform it for 2 millenia.
Even orthodox agree , on other than arcane philosophy.

I am sorry to hear that. 1 John 2:18-19 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

 

[Arial]

Athanasius of the nicene creed / council said : before The New Testament canon was finalised,

“So long as the prayers of supplication and entreaties have not been made, there is only bread and wine. But after the great and wonderful prayers have been completed, then the bread is become the Body, and the wine the Blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. ‘And again:’ Let us approach the celebration of the mysteries. This bread and this wine, so long as the prayers and supplications have not taken place, remain simply what they are. But after the great prayers and holy supplications have been sent forth, the Word comes down into the bread and wine – and thus His Body is confected.”

We are consistent with scripture in correct meaning , and the early church and all since.

Why are you leaning on the understanding of fallible men. It is possible they are wrong. Should you not do your own study as the Bereans did? Why do you think I should lean on that very same understanding of fallible men? Why do you think everyone should trust in the intellect of some person or person's and let their own intellect lie dormant?

 

[Arial]

The reformationists threw the baby out with the bathwater. By thinking their intellect trumps what John taught.
My Protestant denomination could not even agree with itself
! It’s why I left!

Well I guess if agreement on all things is what you choose to trust in-----

 

[donadams]

The RCC is a denomination. It isn't in scripture.

It is the one true church founded by Christ on Peter having the keys of the kingdom Matt 16:18-19 Lk 22:29 Isa 22:21-22


God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18-19) with the keys of jurisdictional authority over the kingdom or new covenant church!

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World, universal, all men

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

 

[donadams]

If you have another covenant, and another mediator, and another church, and another gospel, etc etc etc

 

[Arial]

Hymns and rock music and preachers listing their 3 millenium opinions don’t cut it for me.
Im interested in what the apostles and their disciples did and taught.

You are interested in what the Catholic church says the apostles and their disciples taught. Be honest. But while we are on the subject of things in a denomination that the apostles and their disciple adamantly taught against and therefore do not belong in His church----

Continuing revelations about sexual abuse by priests and other clergy have led to thousands of lawsuits against the Catholic Church in recent years. While other denominations have also been implicated in sexual abuse scandals, the Catholic Church has been at the forefront of media stories given its size, influence and ability to hide the actions of perpetrators within its ranks. (from consumersafety.org)

Law firm tallies 2,800 suits filed against Catholic entities under NY Child Victims Act​

I could go on listing but won't. Anyone can run a search of lawsuits against Catholic entities. Does this not cause you to see that something is seriously wrong?

 

[donadams]

The priesthood was part of the old covenant. There is no more priesthood. There is one Priest the Lord Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews with a neutral eye. Low priest is an invention of catholicism.

If the covenant had two priesthoods
The ministerial order of Levi with Arron as the high priest and the priesthood of the people the royal priesthood and Christ reformed the old covenant into the new, heb 9:10 and Christ is High priest heb 8:1 and there still is a royal priesthood of the people don’t ya think the ministerial priesthood would also be included, especially since Christ commanded his apostles to offer His sacrifice! “Do this in remembrance of me”
1 cor 11:24-25
Mal 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:


once for all sacrifice of Christ:

once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.

The catholic invention of the ministerial priesthood is really biblical?

Ministerial priesthood: “apostles & their successors, and those they ordain” (low priests)

With priestly ministry:
Mk 3:14 “ordained”
Matt 22:14 Jn 15:16 “chosen” “ordained”
Jn 20:21 “sent by Christ with His authority”
Jn 20:23 “power to forgive sins”
Acts 1:8 “anointing with power”
acts 1:15-26 “ministry / bishop”
Acts 2:38-39 “administered sacraments”
acts 14:23 “ordained”
Acts 16:4 “ordained “
Rom 15:16 “minister / sanctify”
1 cor 9:14 “ordained”
1 Tim 2:7 “ordained”
1 Tim 3:1-2 “bishop”
1 Tim 4:14 “priest” “priestly ministry”
Phil 1:1 “bishops deacons”
James 5:14 “anointing with oil”

The ministerial priesthood acts in “the person of Christ” so it is Christ who acts thru them vicariously.
2 cor 2:10 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24

Thanks

 

[donadams]

And this has what to do with salvation and justification by faith alone, not by works?

Scripture NEVER says “faith alone” except two places both times are NOT “faith alone”! Phil 1:29 James 2:24
Thanks

Not works alone either or natural works apart from Christ and devoid of grace!

Catholic Dogma
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.

111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.

112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.

 

[Eleanor]

Scripture NEVER says “faith alone” except two places both times are NOT “faith alone”! Phil 1:29 James 2:24
Thanks

Not works alone either or natural works apart from Christ and devoid of grace!

Catholic Dogma
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.

111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.

112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.

Scripture never says "protein," so?

However, it does say: salvation is "through faith. . .not by works" (Eph 2:8-9); i.e., law keeping.

You simply do not believe the word of God in Eph 2:8-9.

Likewise with justification (forensic righteousness) which is "by faith, apart from observing the law" (Ro 3:28).

 

[Arch Stanton]

Scripture never says "protein," so?

However, it does say: salvation is "through faith. . .not by works" (Eph 2:8-9); i.e., law keeping.

You simply do not believe the word of God in Eph 2:8-9.

Likewise with justification (forensic righteousness) which is "by faith, apart from observing the law" (Ro 3:28).

Eph 2:10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

 

[donadams]

Scripture never says "protein," so?

However, it does say: salvation is "through faith. . .not by works" (Eph 2:8-9); i.e., law keeping.

You simply do not believe the word of God in Eph 2:8-9.

Likewise with justification (forensic righteousness) which is "by faith, apart from observing the law" (Ro 3:28).

Eph 2 does not say “salvation”!

 

[Arial]

If the covenant had two priesthoods
The ministerial order of Levi with Arron as the high priest and the priesthood of the people the royal priesthood and Christ reformed the old covenant into the new, heb 9:10 and Christ is High priest heb 8:1 and there still is a royal priesthood of the people don’t ya think the ministerial priesthood would also be included, especially since Christ commanded his apostles to offer His sacrifice!

You always give only portions of a sentence in one scripture of one completely isolated from all context as support for your claims. No one, not even the pope, will ever gain a true understanding of scripture from doing that. It is proof texting (and there is no such thing as a proof text) with confirmation bias. It provides as much support for the premise as a swamp does for a buildings foundation.

Christ did not "reform" the old covenant. He fulfilled it and it then passed away. Heb 8:13 says clearly When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Back to Heb 9 beginning in verse 6



6These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people. 8By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing 9(which is symbolic for the present age).d According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper, 10but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.





11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,e then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. 13For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctifyf for the purification of the flesh, 14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify ourg conscience from dead works to serve the living God.





23Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. 25Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, 26for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

The Catholic church sets it own priests up in the place of Christ and establishes a whole series of new dead works.

 

[Arial]

If the covenant had two priesthoods
The ministerial order of Levi with Arron as the high priest and the priesthood of the people the royal priesthood and Christ reformed the old covenant into the new, heb 9:10 and Christ is High priest heb 8:1 and there still is a royal priesthood of the people don’t ya think the ministerial priesthood would also be included, especially since Christ commanded his apostles to offer His sacrifice! “Do this in remembrance of me”
1 cor 11:24-25
Mal 1:11

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

A pure offering:
A Clean oblation:
An Unbloody sacrifice:


once for all sacrifice of Christ:

once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.

The catholic invention of the ministerial priesthood is really biblical?

Ministerial priesthood: “apostles & their successors, and those they ordain” (low priests)

With priestly ministry:
Mk 3:14 “ordained”
Matt 22:14 Jn 15:16 “chosen” “ordained”
Jn 20:21 “sent by Christ with His authority”
Jn 20:23 “power to forgive sins”
Acts 1:8 “anointing with power”
acts 1:15-26 “ministry / bishop”
Acts 2:38-39 “administered sacraments”
acts 14:23 “ordained”
Acts 16:4 “ordained “
Rom 15:16 “minister / sanctify”
1 cor 9:14 “ordained”
1 Tim 2:7 “ordained”
1 Tim 3:1-2 “bishop”
1 Tim 4:14 “priest” “priestly ministry”
Phil 1:1 “bishops deacons”
James 5:14 “anointing with oil”

The ministerial priesthood acts in “the person of Christ” so it is Christ who acts thru them vicariously.
2 cor 2:10 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24

Thanks

All the partial and removed from context scriptures you post are presented as though it were established that in whatever way it interprets and uses scriptures is the one true way and they are the authority in the matter. But that has never been established. Only their own say so us ut premise. It is no different that a thief going before a court of law and saying to the judge and jury, "I am innocent and thus I declare myself." Presenting no other witnesses or making a case for his innocence other than is statement of innocence. What the Catholic church would have us do amounts to the judge and jury saying, "In that case, court dismissed, charges dropped." I am not that stupid.

 

[Arial]

duplicate

 

[Mikeuk]

Well I guess if agreement on all things is what you choose to trust in-----

The same church could not even agree on the meaning of the Eucharist!

That ls how bad the divisive sola scriptura i!

 

[Mikeuk]

Why are you leaning on the understanding of fallible men. It is possible they are wrong. Should you not do your own study as the Bereans did? Why do you think I should lean on that very same understanding of fallible men? Why do you think everyone should trust in the intellect of some person or person's and let their own intellect lie dormant?

I rely on the gospel and what those SENT to preach were taught it means.
My coment on anasthasius is clear indication nothing changed from johns disciples.

In the blue corner we have everyone for the first 1500 years and all Catholics and orthodix ever since.

in the red corner we have Arial, Protestants who can’t even agree with each other!
As I stated even my past denomination couldnt agree with itself, not could the reformers agree on this.
It’s not a good advert fot “ leaning on your own understanding! “

mat 24:14 “ - THE gospel will be preached to the end of time” not with a 1500 year gap till reformers disagree or a 2000 year gap till arial re discovers it!