Is anyone planning on...............

[donadams]

If there is no difference why is only the pope called Holy Father?

Just a place of honor

 

[Arial]

Good my turn why do you require it to be spelled out in scripture?

In order for me to give an accurate answer that would satisfy you, I would need you to define what you are referring to when you say "spelled out is scripture."

Without knowing that all I can say is that if something isn't supported by scripture and is completely outside of it, then it is heresy. What does the Bible say? Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all.

Matt 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God;


Is 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy.

Is 6:3 Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of Hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.

In Matt 23:9 Jesus is obviously not denying that we have earthly fathers, and cannot be saying to not acknowledge him as our father or call him father as one of the commandments is to honor our father and mother. He is speaking of God, the Father as being the only One we give the position of Father as God to. In other words don't give the title Father to men. He is our Father and we are His children.

So to call a human Holy Father, whatever justification is given for that such as officially saying it is honoring the pope's office, is calling that man by the name of God. Is 57; Is 6.

Is that what you mean by spelled out in scripture? Well, whether it is or not, it is spelled out in scripture, but you have yet to show where calling the pope Holy Father is spelled out in scripture or even remotely hinted at.

 

[Arial]

Just a place of honor

Why were you unable to say that until I posted it from a Catholic website? What did you think calling the pope by a name that belongs only to God meant in Catholic doctrine before I told you? Or had you ever bothered to think about it at all? No matter what excuse is officially given so as to hopefully conceal its true intent, calling a man by a name of God, for whatever contrived reason, is blasphemy.

 

[donadams]

Faith is the product of grace, it is a gift (Php 1;29, Ac 13:48, Ac 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Have you ever read the NT?

So is prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, practice of the virtues, the mass and sacraments

Thanks

 

[donadams]

In order for me to give an accurate answer that would satisfy you, I would need you to define what you are referring to when you say "spelled out is scripture."

Without knowing that all I can say is that if something isn't supported by scripture and is completely outside of it, then it is heresy. What does the Bible say? Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all.

Matt 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God;


Is 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy.

Is 6:3 Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of Hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.

In Matt 23:9 Jesus is obviously not denying that we have earthly fathers, and cannot be saying to not acknowledge him as our father or call him father as one of the commandments is to honor our father and mother. He is speaking of God, the Father as being the only One we give the position of Father as God to. In other words don't give the title Father to men. He is our Father and we are His children.

So to call a human Holy Father, whatever justification is given for that such as officially saying it is honoring the pope's office, is calling that man by the name of God. Is 57; Is 6.

Is that what you mean by spelled out in scripture? Well, whether it is or not, it is spelled out in scripture, but you have yet to show where calling the pope Holy Father is spelled out in scripture or even remotely hinted at.

Isa 22:21-22 father
Saint means holy called to be holy

Which is biblical?

The “Bible is the only authority”!

Or

“Christ founded a church to teach and sanctify all men unto
Eternal salvation”: Matt 28:28 Lk 1:4 acts 1:8, 2:42, 8:31 Jn 16:13, 20:21-23 Matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:16
1 Jn 1:4

I did not say the Bible is not an authority, I say it’s not the “only authority”!

The Bible is the fruit of the apostolic tradition, the church is not dependent on scripture to know truth cos she was taught by Christ in person for thee years!

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15

And if “the Bible is the only authority” then there can be no authentic interpretation!

 

[donadams]

Why were you unable to say that until I posted it from a Catholic website? What did you think calling the pope by a name that belongs only to God meant in Catholic doctrine before I told you? Or had you ever bothered to think about it at all? No matter what excuse is officially given so as to hopefully conceal its true intent, calling a man by a name of God, for whatever contrived reason, is blasphemy.

Not do not blasphemy

Ephesians 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

 

[donadams]

In order for me to give an accurate answer that would satisfy you, I would need you to define what you are referring to when you say "spelled out is scripture."

Without knowing that all I can say is that if something isn't supported by scripture and is completely outside of it, then it is heresy. What does the Bible say? Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in all.

Matt 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.

1 John 3:1 See what kind of love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God;


Is 57:15 For thus says the high and exalted One Who lives forever, whose name is Holy.

Is 6:3 Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord of Hosts, the whole earth is full of His glory.

In Matt 23:9 Jesus is obviously not denying that we have earthly fathers, and cannot be saying to not acknowledge him as our father or call him father as one of the commandments is to honor our father and mother. He is speaking of God, the Father as being the only One we give the position of Father as God to. In other words don't give the title Father to men. He is our Father and we are His children.

So to call a human Holy Father, whatever justification is given for that such as officially saying it is honoring the pope's office, is calling that man by the name of God. Is 57; Is 6.

Is that what you mean by spelled out in scripture? Well, whether it is or not, it is spelled out in scripture, but you have yet to show where calling the pope Holy Father is spelled out in scripture or even remotely hinted at.

The churches teaching authority is “spelled out” in scripture but you don’t submit?

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20
Hear the church Matt 18:17 the only pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:15

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Apostolic succession: apostles must remain till Christ returns Matt 28:19-20



Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!

They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of jurisdictional authority! Open and shut And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.


The apostles teaching is Christ’s teaching, Christ and His church are one! Acts 9:4

Christian rule of faith is not the Bible alone! But the doctrine of the apostles! Acts 2:42

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20


The teaching of Peter and the apostles and successors is the teaching of Christ!

Authority in what they teach and not in a person in an office!

Jesus is not our salvation: only what He taught?

Lk 2:30 Matt 16:13 Jesus in His person is our salvation, not only in what He taught!
Matt 16:13 not what do people say about what I teach, but whom do people say the I am!

The teaching of the successors of Moses not their person?

The successors of Moses sit in the seat of Moses Matt 23:1

Peters confession not Peters person? Matt 16:18

You give the keys to a person not to a confession!

Acts 1:26 they choose Mathias not the teaching of Mathias!

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission as Christ! Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

We must be taught by Peter, the apostles, and their successors! Lk 10:16 Matt 28:19 Jn 21:17 Jn 16:13 acts 2:42

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Lk 1:4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

It is a thing unthinkable! To refuse to hear the church is to refuse to hear Christ!
Christ and His church are one. Acts 9:4

Spiritual Fathers have care for our souls!

 

[Eleanor]

So is prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, practice of the virtues, the mass and sacraments

Thanks

Alms is a gift?

 

[Arial]

The churches teaching authority is “spelled out” in scripture but you don’t submit?

I submit completely to the scriptures. What I don't submit to is the Catholic church declaring itself as the authority over scripture and its interpretation. And all you give me to go on is that. You never verify from the Bible o anywhere but with itself as its own witness that the Catholic denomination is declared by scripture to be the true church of Christ. When you are able to do that, I will submit. Until then we will only be able to go in circles. So far it is purely and only a true example of the doctrines and traditions of men. Though that is often used to decry anything one does not believe, in this case it is as true and obvious as was the Pharisees and Sadducees when Jesus declared it of them. Also calling them whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones who were not entering the kingdom themselves and kept others out as well. An independent thinking person would take heed of such words.

As to the rest of your post that evidently considers a plethora of quoted scriptures that contain only the supposed authority to interpret scripture above and beyond any peons ability to do so, or even God to guide them into all truth (as per scripture), when you begin to address the scriptures I have given with the interpretation the Bible presents, and my using the Bible to show how scripture interprets scripture, and have the courteousey to do the same, I have nothing more to say to you.

You have lost this debate, just as Catholic's loose all debates for the same reason. You start from a premise that is never proven and continue from a premise that is never proven. But you go right ahead and put your trust in such a foolish place to put one's trust.

 

[Arial]

Not do not blasphemy

What does "not do not blasphemy" mean?

Ephesians 3:15
Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Name and named are not the same thing. Can you tell me what that passage means if it is put back into its context and without having to check a Catholic source to tell you what it means?

 

[Arial]

Saint means holy called to be holy

Not when it is used as Holy Father. When it is uses in the sense above it means set apart by God as a holy vessel---rather than one meant for destruction.

The “Bible is the only authority”!

Or

“Christ founded a church to teach and sanctify all men unto
Eternal salvation”: Matt 28:28 Lk 1:4 acts 1:8, 2:42, 8:31 Jn 16:13, 20:21-23 Matt 18:17 1 Tim 3:16
1 Jn 1:4

Is there a reason why it must be one or the other? The Bible is the only authority of truthful doctrine in His church. That simply states an organization does not have a higher authority over it or over people. What is to be taught in His church are the very same truths that are found in the Bible given by Jesus and the apostles. Though various interpretations of any given scripture may arise with this freedom, it is the freedom God gives us, only one is accurate and with the use of apologetics----and sometimes simple second grade level reading---will determine what that is. No organization has authority of interpretation. Any that claims to is suspect, red flags waving, right from the start. And not to worry about what you may think is faulty, God elects some to salvation through faith in the true Christ, and the true work that He did, and the true sufficiency of that work, and they will hear and come. And He will lead them to truth. Not the Catholic denomination or church, or any other visible church.

The Bible is the fruit of the apostolic tradition, the church is not dependent on scripture to know truth cos she was taught by Christ in person for thee years!

The Bible is the fruit of apostolic teaching, whether my mouth or letter. What she was taught is in the scriptures. The Catholic denomination steps outside the boundaries of the four corners of the Bible. And a boundary it is. Greater understanding can be gained within a congregation but that is done by expounding on the word in the Bible. Not by going outside of it. The teachers and preachers are to expound on the word of God as it is given. When was the last time or first time such a thing happened in a Catholic service?

 

[donadams]

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
Offering the eternal sacrifice of Christ for the salvation of all men!

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 cor 5:7 …For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Christ is Eternal priest:

Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Christ is High priest:

Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Low priests / priesthood:

There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.

The holy sacrifice of Christ:

Holy sacrifice of Christ is offered eternally, the office of a priest is to offer sacrifice, Christ is eternal priest so He offers an eternal sacrifice! Both by the high priest and the low priesthood.

once for all:

once bloody on the cross and for all time unbloody sacrifice, pure offering or clean oblation.

Jesus Christ at the last supper ordained the apostles as priests in the order of melchisedec, to offer His eternal sacrifice as he commanded them; do this in memory of me.

Do this in remembrance of me!

Luke 22:19
And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24
And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25
After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

 

[donadams]

Alms is a gift?

Supernatural gift or virtue of generosity yes!

 

[donadams]

I submit completely to the scriptures. What I don't submit to is the Catholic church declaring itself as the authority over scripture and its interpretation. And all you give me to go on is that. You never verify from the Bible o anywhere but with itself as its own witness that the Catholic denomination is declared by scripture to be the true church of Christ. When you are able to do that, I will submit. Until then we will only be able to go in circles. So far it is purely and only a true example of the doctrines and traditions of men. Though that is often used to decry anything one does not believe, in this case it is as true and obvious as was the Pharisees and Sadducees when Jesus declared it of them. Also calling them whitewashed tombs full of dead men's bones who were not entering the kingdom themselves and kept others out as well. An independent thinking person would take heed of such words.

As to the rest of your post that evidently considers a plethora of quoted scriptures that contain only the supposed authority to interpret scripture above and beyond any peons ability to do so, or even God to guide them into all truth (as per scripture), when you begin to address the scriptures I have given with the interpretation the Bible presents, and my using the Bible to show how scripture interprets scripture, and have the courteousey to do the same, I have nothing more to say to you.

You have lost this debate, just as Catholic's loose all debates for the same reason. You start from a premise that is never proven and continue from a premise that is never proven. But you go right ahead and put your trust in such a foolish place to put one's trust.

There are no denominations in scripture just one true church! Jn 10:16 Lk 22:29

God initiated each covenant and the mediator always remains on earth mediating the covenant except for Christ who made Peter His personal representative and vicar! (Matt 16:18-19) with the keys of jurisdictional authority over the kingdom or new covenant church!

Adam
(Marriage covenant)

Noah
(Family covenant)

Abraham
(Tribal covenant)

Moses:
(National covenant)

Jesus Christ:
(Universal covenant)

New and eternal covenant founded by Jesus Christ! Matt 16:18

Universal (Catholic)
World, universal, all men

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. ( catholic universal) All men!

Lk 2:31 prepared before the face of all (catholic) people. All men!

Jn 1:29 lamb of God who takes way the sins of the world. All men!

Jn 3:16 for God so loved the world

1 Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. All men!

Lk 2: 10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. All men!

11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. (All people universal) All men!

1 Tim 2:5 one mediator

Jn 10:16 One new covenant church

Only Jesus Christ has authority to found the church on Peter and the apostles! Matt 16:18-19 Matt 18:18
Jn 20:21 eph 2:20

All others are heretical sects the tradition of men!

Christ is king and established a kingdom!

Obedience to the apostles who have the jurisdictional authority to govern the church and administer the kingdom is obedience to Christ!

Kingdom

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

the holy Catholic Church

Lk 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Matthew 5:14
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus Christ is king!

We must submit and obey the king of kings!

And His authorized ministers that He Himself appointed!

Matt 16:18-19 & 28:28 eph 2:20 Jn 20:21-23

Lk 10:16
He who hears you hears me...

John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13)

Christ and His church are one! (Acts 9:4 eph 5:31 Jn 15:1-5)

The evidence of true faith is humble subjection and obedience to Christ & His holy church!

The rule of faith for Christians is Jesus Christ Jn 14:6 and His church! Matt 18:17 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

True Christians cannot listen to the errors of excommunicated heretics, but we listen faithfully to Christ, in the bosom of holy mother church, the only ark of salvation!
1 pet 3:20-21 matt 18:17 matt 16:18-19 matt 28:19-20 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-23

 

[donadams]

What does "not do not blasphemy" mean?

Name and named are not the same thing. Can you tell me what that passage means if it is put back into its context and without having to check a Catholic source to tell you what it means?

Sorry is not blasphemy

 

[donadams]

Not when it is used as Holy Father. When it is uses in the sense above it means set apart by God as a holy vessel---rather than one meant for destruction.

Is there a reason why it must be one or the other? The Bible is the only authority of truthful doctrine in His church. That simply states an organization does not have a higher authority over it or over people. What is to be taught in His church are the very same truths that are found in the Bible given by Jesus and the apostles. Though various interpretations of any given scripture may arise with this freedom, it is the freedom God gives us, only one is accurate and with the use of apologetics----and sometimes simple second grade level reading---will determine what that is. No organization has authority of interpretation. Any that claims to is suspect, red flags waving, right from the start. And not to worry about what you may think is faulty, God elects some to salvation through faith in the true Christ, and the true work that He did, and the true sufficiency of that work, and they will hear and come. And He will lead them to truth. Not the Catholic denomination or church, or any other visible church.

The Bible is the fruit of apostolic teaching, whether my mouth or letter. What she was taught is in the scriptures. The Catholic denomination steps outside the boundaries of the four corners of the Bible. And a boundary it is. Greater understanding can be gained within a congregation but that is done by expounding on the word in the Bible. Not by going outside of it. The teachers and preachers are to expound on the word of God as it is given. When was the last time or first time such a thing happened in a Catholic service?

Scripture and tradition
2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
Equal

 

[Arial]

There are no denominations in scripture just one true church! Jn 10:16 Lk 22:29

The RCC is a denomination. It isn't in scripture.

 

[Arial]

There must be low priests in the same order for a high priest to be over them. And the word in scripture “priesthood” is plural.

The priesthood was part of the old covenant. There is no more priesthood. There is one Priest the Lord Jesus Christ. Read Hebrews with a neutral eye. Low priest is an invention of catholicism.

 

[Eleanor]

Supernatural gift or virtue of generosity yes!

And this has what to do with salvation and justification by faith alone, not by works?

 

[Mikeuk]

So you did not think I was simply arguing with you rather than defending and contending for the faith that saves.

I do know those scriptures, No need for insult to make your point. But you do not give them according to the Bible but according the the way in which the RCC with its self proclaimed authority on interpretation, interprets them. And they only basis for which they have on which to interpret them the way they do comes from themselves, not the scriptures. It calls itself the One universal only official church of Christ. But God did not appoint them to that position, Christ did not appoint them to that position the Bible did not. Who did? Themselves.

So try giving an interpretation to those scriptures in their entirety and within their context, using intellect, reason. logic, rules of interpretation, exegesis, other parts of the Bible, without Catholic dogma thrown in the mix as confirmation bias therefore ruling the day, and tell me what they are saying and what they mean. Can you do that?

No I do not. Most of all I need to read the Bible and I do, and most of all you have the same need.

Neither of which are in the Bible unless they are read into it with little to know understanding outside RCC indoctrination. You have given no proof of either of those things. You simply repeat the Catholic mantras. It is as though one cannot think for themselves and certainly should not be allowed to.

It has nothing to do with the power of Jesus, this going off the rails. I happen to believe that the rise of the RCC and its hierarchy and dictatorship over the religious life of everyone was the first and worst and most tenacious of all the going off the rails. Paul would be kicking the Catholic priests and bishops and pope out the door. Jesus Himself said the tares would grow alongside the wheat. He was the first to say there would be false teachers and false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing seeking to devour the flock, disguising themselves as angels of light. There were those in the days of the apostles as we see form many of the letters, that were distorting the truth and exalting themselves. It is all part of the war.

Even many of the protestant churches have areas where they have gone off the rails. Personally I think it may be a winnowing, separating the true believer from those who borrow the name.

Any disputes I may have with another I resolve with the scriptures. If the scriptures did not already have a meaning it would be useless and pointless and it would not be the word of God. Or does the Catholic tradition not consider it the word of God but the Catholic church as the word of God? Disputes within churches are handled in various ways and I am not concerned with that except in the church I attend, and then if it does not consider the word of God, I reject it.

Why is it that you think there should be no opposing beliefs, that all matters on religion and tradition must be settled by a central hierarchy in Rome and all must comply? That all people must think the same, believe the same, act the same, and if there is not this conformity then Christ's church fails? Why do you think it is the job of your denomination (and that is all it is, another denomination) to set these things, and order these things, as though Christ were impotent to seal and protect His church and His people?

Who cares who agrees with who on what in the past, or now. Agreement is not the issue. Salvation and the glory of God is the issue.

And scripture meaning handed by tradition? No. Scripture is God speaking, anointed men, appointed by God and instructed and inspired by the very Holy Spirit to give us what we need. To give us truth. Jesus spoke against trusting in and believing in the traditions of men. And that is all the RCC counts on and produces.

Since I addressed all that you said in this post, in spite of the fact that it just restated your position and did not address a single thing I said, suppose you go back to that post and address the things I said.

Arial.
I have no doubt you are a passionate Christian and bravo for that in our secular world.

I’ve also no doubt Christ is in all the denominations , where two or more or gathered.

But Ive also addressed the reasons why we will never agree.

If there is a way forward , I would like you to look through the eyed first generations of Christian’s for whom there was no New Testament, and if copies of scripture were found they were burned , just as Christians were tortured and killed. Even if they could afford the New Testament which didnt become a thing till centuries later when Christianity was made legal by Constantine , few if any could read it..

Even then the church flourished , the truth handed down primarily by those who were “sent “ and by word of mouth and letter
, and we can see what it believed in writings of such as iraneus and ignatius. It really doesn’t matter What those millenia later think scripture means, we know what apostles like John thought it meant.

The catholic mass is essentially as it has always been since early fathers wrote,
And that - Jesus - not the “ hierarchy” is the centre of our faith.

One thought I would like you to consider - I will start a thread for it on which we can unite - is how in our secular materialist world , how we convince the young people to come back. Attacking each other is part of the problem. But what is the solutio?

God bless !