Irresistible Grace in Sanctification?

[Josheb]

Where I think we disagree is on sanctification. As I believe it is monergistic.

I also think it is monergistic until after conversion. After conversion then - as you posted - our nature is changed, and we become collaborators with the Spirit of God that is at work in us to do our Father's will. That Spirit inspires us, informs, empowers us, and guides us in a myriad of ways, including behaviors of our own that sanctify.


I have been misunderstood if what I posted was read to say sanctification is not monergistic. Perhaps you think sanctification across the entire post-regeneration lifespan is solely monergist. If so then I think that has been taken too far because in multiple place the epistolary speaks of the already-regenerate saint acting in ways that sanctify themselves or conditions in their life (such as food being sanctified through prayer), or James' readers cleansing their hands and purifying their hearts.

Scripture speaks of us having already been saved (past-tense), of us being saved (ongoing present-tense), and we will be saved (future tense).

1 Peter 1:3-9
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ; and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

That first mention of salvation may be a temporal salvation that pertains to eschatological events of the first century, but the second one, the salvation of souls is said to people whose souls have already been saved. The saved will be saved.

In speaking about angels the author of Hebrews states,

Hebrews 1:14
Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

The saved will inherit salvation.

Paul said endured suffering so that he might obtain salvation.

2 Timothy 2:10
For this reason, I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Wasn't he already saved? Notice he said he endured, not the Spirit endured for him, or made him endure. He did it. But perhaps one of the most alarming examples is something Paul wrote about an unrepentant rebellious saint...

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst...... I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

That guy was a saint. If he was a saint, then he was saved. Yet Paul is going to hand that already-saved saint over to satan so that the already-saved saint's spirit will be saved in the future on the day of the Lord Jesus. I think it reasonable to assume Paul also hoped being handed over to satan would cause the man to repent, seek forgiveness, and return to submission and obedience in Christ. If that is true, then handing someone over to saint can be sanctifying .

Therefore, salvation is monergistic, and within that monergistic salvation all the elements of salvation such as faith, justification obtaining righteousness, and sanctification are all monergistic, BUT once saved, once regenerate God expects us to act like regenerate people and do things that are themselves sanctifying.

Non-believers are not believers. Regenerate people are already saved. Most of the epistolary was written by an already-regenerate saved believer to already-regenerate saved believers about already-regenerate saved believer. Every mention of someone doing anything that is sanctifying is an example of the already-monergistically sanctified saved person contributing to their own already God-accomplished sanctification.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Unregenerate non-believers cannot do that.

 

[Josheb]

Where I think we disagree is on sanctification. As I believe it is monergistic.

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Here's what Calvin wrote about 2 Corinthians 7:1,

"These promises, therefore. God, it is true, anticipates us in his promises by his pure favor; but when he has, of his own accord, conferred upon us his favor, he immediately afterwards requires from us gratitude in return. Thus what he said to Abraham, I am thy God, (Genesis 17:7,) was an offer of his undeserved goodness, yet he at the same time added what he required from him -- Walk before me, and be thou perfect As, however, this second clause is not always expressed, Paul instructs us that in all the promises this condition is implied, that they must be incitements to us to promote the glory of God. For from what does he deduce an argument to stimulate us? It is from this, that God confers upon us such a distinguished honor. Such, then, is the nature of the promises, that they call us to sanctification, as if God had interposed by an implied agreement. We know, too, what the Scripture teaches in various passages in reference to the design of redemption, and the same thing must be viewed as applying to every token of his favor."

"From all filthiness of flesh and spirit. Having already shown, that we are called to purity, he now adds, that it ought to be seen in the body, as well as in the soul; for that the term flesh is taken here to mean the body, and the term spirit to mean the soul, is manifest from this, that if the term spirit meant the grace of regeneration, Paul's statement in reference to the pollution of the spirit would be absurd. He would have us, therefore, pure from defilements, not merely inward, such as have God alone as their witness; but also outward, such as fall under the observation of men. 'Let us not merely have chaste consciences in the sight of God. We must also consecrate to him our whole body and all its members, that no impurity may be seen in any part of us.'"

"Now if we consider what is the point that he handles, we shall readily perceive, that those act with excessive impudence, who excuse outward idolatry on I know not what pretexts. For as inward impiety, and superstition, of whatever kind, is a defilement of the spirit, what will they understand by defilement of the flesh, but an outward profession of impiety, whether it be pretended, or uttered from the heart? They boast of a pure conscience; that, indeed, is on false grounds, but granting them what they falsely boast of, they have only the half of what Paul requires from believers. Hence they have no ground to think, that they have given satisfaction to God by that half; for let a person show any appearance of idolatry at all, or any indication of it, or take part in wicked or superstitious rites, even though he were -- what he cannot be -- perfectly upright in his own mind, he would, nevertheless, not be exempt from the guilt of polluting his body."

Perfecting holiness. As the verb epitelein in Greek sometimes means, to perfect, and sometimes to perform sacred rites, it is elegantly made use of here by Paul in the former signification, which is the more frequent one -- in such a way, however, as to allude to sanctification, of which he is now treating. For while it denotes perfection, it seems to have been intentionally transferred to sacred offices, because there ought to be nothing defective in the service of God, but everything complete. Hence, in order that you may sanctify yourself to God aright, you must dedicate both body and soul entirely to him.

In the fear of God. For if the fear of God influences us, we will not be so much disposed to indulge ourselves, nor will there be a bursting forth of that audacity of wantonness, which showed itself among the Corinthians. For how does it happen, that many delight themselves so much in outward idolatry, and haughtily defend so gross a vice, unless it be, that they think that they mock God with impunity? If the fear of God had dominion over them, they would immediately, on the first moment, leave off all cavils, without requiring to be constrained to it by any disputations."​

So..... Calvin taught a person can sanctify himself after being regenerated, sanctified, saved by God by dedicating himself to God. Having been dedicated by God to God, he now dedicates himself to God.

 

[Josheb]

So, what about God being `sorry` that He made man on the earth...

What about it? What is the relevance of that question to the op and the subject of irresistible grace in sanctification? Are you not already aware how the depravity of humanity and the ensuing flood served God's purpose?


My comment was made to simply affirm the sovereignty of God, the inability of sinfully dead and enslaved humanity to sanctify himself, and the overlapping ground in between where all things serve God's purpose. How's your question relevant?

 

[Marilyn C]

What about it? What is the relevance of that question to the op and the subject of irresistible grace in sanctification? Are you not already aware how the depravity of humanity and the ensuing flood served God's purpose?


My comment was made to simply affirm the sovereignty of God, the inability of sinfully dead and enslaved humanity to sanctify himself, and the overlapping ground in between where all things serve God's purpose. How's your question relevant?

If, God choses some why did He not choose some more in that first era by His irresistible grace and thus sanctify them, then He would not be so `sorry, ` or `grieved` as much. His purposes would still be online.

 

[Marilyn C]

We speak of irresistible Grace in calling, justification and glorification, what about in (actual) sanctification? Or is that a Wesleyan concept?

Hi prism,

I believe it is all of God as we obey His Holy Spirit. As we continually turn our compass heading to the Lord, the Head of the Body, we become partakers of the Divine nature, and the flesh loses its hold. The Spirit of God comes forth from our innermost being with our spirit, becoming the `ruler` over our selves.

 

[Arial]

1) Who is the "we" in that post? (the still dead human or the regenerate huma?)

It is the regenerate human who God works in to conform to the image of Christ. But it is everyone ever born who is responsible before God and duty bound to bear His image.

2) We're talking about irresistible grace (God's effectiveness) in sanctification, right?

Yes.

 

[Josheb]

If, God choses some why did He not choose some more in that first era by His irresistible grace and thus sanctify them, then He would not be so `sorry, ` or `grieved` as much. His purposes would still be online.

I disagree.

Normally, I would ask you to explain how and why you think God's sorrow is incompatible with His choice not to save more, but neither God's sorrow nor His choice are specifically the topic of this discussion. If you like we can take this up briefly if you PM me, or if you start a new thread and @Josheb me in it I'll reply there in whatever detail is warranted and without the expectation for either of us to be brief.

 

[Josheb]

It is the regenerate human who God works in to conform to the image of Christ. But it is everyone ever born who is responsible before God and duty bound to bear His image.

Yes, but we're discussing only those He sanctifies and whether or not Irresistible Grace applies specifically to sanctification. My answer to that question is an unequivocal, "Yes!" with a "but" following it because God's grace accomplishes what it sets out to accomplish, it is effectual or effective, monergistically in conversion but once a person is regenerated, brought from death to life, converted, saved, purified, justified, and sanctified, etc., etc., etc., then there is an expectation of obedience where none could practically exist beforehand. One component of that obedience is for the now regenerate and purified individual to act in their Spirit-inspired and empowered might to maintain that clean state through the various avenues I previously cited from scripture (prayer, confession and repentance, abstinence from things like idolatry, etc.).

The implication of Romans 8 is that while the mind of flesh is hostile to God and it does not and cannot please God the mind of Spirit that is life is not hostile to God; it friendly toward God who is Abba, and it is able to please God and does so. Likewise, while the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, the Spiritual man does not have that problem. The man with the Spirit has the mind of Christ, he discerns, examines, investigates, and/or judges all things.

Are we to assume the spiritual man does all that with all things spiritual except sanctification? I'd like to see anyone holding that position make that case.

Yes.

 

[Arial]

Yes, but we're discussing only those He sanctifies and whether or not Irresistible Grace applies specifically to sanctification. My answer to that question is an unequivocal, "Yes!" with a "but" following it because God's grace accomplishes what it sets out to accomplish, it is effectual or effective, monergistically in conversion but once a person is regenerated, brought from death to life, converted, saved, purified, justified, and sanctified, etc., etc., etc., then there is an expectation of obedience where none could practically exist beforehand. One component of that obedience is for the now regenerate and purified individual to act in their Spirit-inspired and empowered might to maintain that clean state through the various avenues I previously cited from scripture (prayer, confession and repentance, abstinence from things like idolatry, etc.).

The implication of Romans 8 is that while the mind of flesh is hostile to God and it does not and cannot please God the mind of Spirit that is life is not hostile to God; it friendly toward God who is Abba, and it is able to please God and does so. Likewise, while the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, the Spiritual man does not have that problem. The man with the Spirit has the mind of Christ, he discerns, examines, investigates, and/or judges all things.

Are we to assume the spiritual man does all that with all things spiritual except sanctification? I'd like to see anyone holding that position make that case.

I think we are in agreement----but who knows what is in a person's mind, in their thinking, when they say what they say? Definitely I agree that effectual grace is just as active in our sanctification as it is in our regeneration. Therefore it is not synergistic but remains monergistic, for it would not happen without grace. God is the fountain of grace, and in Christ and only in Him, is grace for anything dispensed. And it is ours for the asking. And sometimes He wants us to ask, and waits for us to ask, for in this we recognize our need (those places where we fall short in obedience to Him) and acknowledge God as the only source of that need. That is why it is said in Hebrews that we may come boldly before His throne of grace to receive grace and mercy in our time of need. Which incidentally , is always.

At the same time, we have already been supplied in Christ with everything we need to live godly lives, for He is the One who has it and gives it. Eph 1:2-6. And we have the very righteousness of Christ, accredited to us as though it were our own now, and will be in actuality in the future. And this is what we must cling to in the sanctification process, lest we become legalistic in it and lose sight of this glorious truth. Lest we begin to think it is our own righteousness.

I believe that one reason we are both fully justified now and also must wrestle with sin as long as we remain in the world thoughtly influenced by the devil, live in our fallen flesh, is as a refining process in which we never lose sight of our neediness of God----for everything---and our poverty in the flesh. And I believe that sometimes He says no when we ask for a particular grace to overcome a thorn in our side, as Paul did, is because He knowing us, knows to do so would cause us to become puffed up or lose sight of our need.

And we must remember too, that in the epistles when the required behavior and attitude of a child of God, and our attitude towards sin, is being discussed, it is applicable to all Christians of all time; but when the letters were written they were often being written to deal with particular things that were going on in the churches or persons the letter was addressed to. To encourage them to stand fast in the faith, and reminding them what that entailed. In many cases they were dealing with false teachers teaching a different gospel or under severe persecution by the culture and authorities around them, tempted to compromise. These letters do the same for us today.

The fact that the regenerated are a responsible being and responsible to God to obey Him, and that they are sanctified by truth, HIs word is truth (John 17) and therefore must read His word, obey Him, and that grace comes through His word and being in communion with Him in prayer, it does not make sanctification synergistic. Sanctification is only a work of effectual grace and can come through no other means than effectual grace.

Speaking of thorns. Since the first time I read that we are to have a gentle and quiet spirit, I have longed for that, ask for that, and still I wait. It is abundant, gentleness and quietness, with animals, and sometimes with people, but is also quick to leave me in many of my dealings with people or the world. I do not feel gentle and quiet. I do not always have what I perceive as a gentle and quiet spirit in contending for the faith or defending it. So either the image my mind conjures as a gentle and quiet spirit is off base, or it is a thorn of a leopard cannot change its spots. And it is enough for me to recognize when I have transgressed in this matter, repent of it before God, ask again for the grace to be as He wants me to be, and hang tightly with all my might to the knowledge that it is Christ's righteousness, not my own, that brings me into communion and covenant with God. 100% monergistic effectual grace.

 

[Josheb]

I think we are in agreement----but who knows what is in a person's mind, in their thinking, when they say what they say?

lol!

Cardinal rule in text-based mediums: if something can be misinterpreted then it probably will be misinterpreted by someone. It's amazing any of us manage to communicate with one another!

Definitely I agree that effectual grace is just as active in our sanctification as it is in our regeneration....................

Yep. In essence, faith begets faithfulness. Or..... to put in in other words, faith begets godly works, not the other way around.

Speaking of thorns. Since the first time I read that we are to have a gentle and quiet spirit, I have longed for that, ask for that, and still I wait. It is abundant, gentleness and quietness, with animals, and sometimes with people, but is also quick to leave me in many of my dealings with people or the world. I do not feel gentle and quiet. So either the image my mind conjures as a gentle and quiet spirit is off base, or it is a thorn of a leopard cannot change its spots. And it is enough for me to recognize when I have transgressed in this matter, repent of it before God, ask again for the grace to be as He wants me to be, and hang tightly with all my might to the knowledge that it is Christ's righteousness, not my own, that brings me into communion and covenant with God. 100% monergistic effectual grace.

I empathize.

Aware of my own flesh I have nothing to add, but the counselor in me wants to speak to that for your edification (and perhaps those who might also benefit) but healthy boundaries prohibit that here in the forum. I suspect we've all experienced that in a variety of ways and degrees so let me just do this: briefly cite some scriptures that address the matter, recommend another book that continues to help me in profound and enduring ways... and then return to the op .

John 3:19-21 = This text tells us, in essence, to live courageously, to not hide but walk in the light.

1 Peter 2:4-10 and Philippians 2:2-8 = While Peter informs us of our priestly nobility (you are a daughter of The Most High God, fearfully and wonderfully made in the Creator's image twice over) Philippians tells us to consider others more significant than ourselves. So, despite our high position in which we are to be bold, we are also to walk humbly before God and man.

James 3 and 4 = These two chapters tell us our tongue is difficult to control and the sources of conflict between ourselves and others always start from within. We look first to ourselves for Spirit-guided self-correction (despite the aforementioned nobility). As we think, so we are, but who and what we are is ever-changing and if changing at the behest of the Spirit then those changes are ever positive and increasingly Christlike. We can, therefore, have confidence monitoring ourselves by our words knowing that it is out of the abundance of our heart that our mouth speaks (and our fingers type). Are we blind folk leading blind folk, or is there any knowledge, wisdom and understanding in ourselves and others by which we might reason with one another, sharpen one another, and obtain the kind of objectives listed in Ephesians 4:11-29?

There are many passages that inform, direct, and instruct us in the above but among my favorite are Proverbs 15 (the whole chapter), Romans 12:9-21, and the aforementioned 2 Peter 1:3-9.

Meekness, humility, confidence, and boldness are not mutually exclusive conditions. Assertiveness is not aggression (and vice versa). Simply put: When we remember Whose we are, we are always better able to remember who we are.


And while many authors have helped me apply these and others passages from the word of God perhaps THE most impactful has been Dietrich Bonhoeffer's "Life Together." In those pages he was expounded upon the majesty of God in profound ways to understand His infinity creating finite, but infinitely diverse, humanity. It's a real thought stopper.

”Often we combat our evil thoughts most effectively if we absolutely refuse to allow them to be expressed in words. It is certain that the spirit of self-justification can be overcome only by the Spirit of grace, nevertheless, isolated thoughts of judgment can be curbed and smothered by never allowing them the right to be uttered, except as a confession of sin… He who holds his tongue in check controls both mind and body (Jms. 3). Thus it is a decisive rule of every Christian fellowship that each individual is prohibited from saying much that occurs to him… to speak about a brother covertly is forbidden, even under the cloak of help and good will; for it is precisely in this guise that the spirit of hatred among brothers always creeps in when it is seeking to create mischief.”​

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“Where this discipline of the tongue is practiced right from the beginning, each individual will make a matchless discovery. He will be able to cease from constantly scrutinizing the other person, judging him, condemning him, putting him in his particular place where he can gain ascendancy over him and thus doing violence to him as a person. Now he can allow the brother to exist as a completely free person, as God made him to be. His view expands and, to his amazement, for the first time he sees, shining above his brethren, the richness of God’s creative glory. God did not make this person as I would have made him. He did not give him to me as a brother for me to dominate and control, but in order that I might find above him the Creator. Now the other person, in the freedom with which he was created, becomes the occasion for joy, whereas before he was only a nuisance and an affliction. God does not will that I should fashion the other person according to my image; rather in his very freedom from me God made this person in His image. I can never know beforehand how God’s image should appear in others. That image always manifests a completely new and unique form that comes solely from God’s free and sovereign creation”​

”…he who can no longer listen to his brother [or sister] will soon be no longer listening to God, either; he will be doing nothing but prattle in the presence of God, too. This is the beginning of the death of the spiritual life, and in the end there is nothing left but spiritual chatter and clerical condescension arrayed in pious words… Anyone who thinks his time is too valuable to spend keeping quiet will eventually have no time for God and his brother, but only for himself and for his own follies.”​

God did not make you as He made me. I am to listen and look to find the image of God He made in you, knowing it is different than the image He made in me. In doing so with each person I learn more and more and more and more and more about the God who made me - as well as more about myself and how He made me - because I have been created in Christ for good works He planed for me to perform long before I was saved (Eph. 2:10).

Apologetically speaking, the best apologetic is a life well lived. For that reason, Christian internet discussion forums are excellent places for sanctification. Since God often uses others in our lives every thread is an opportunity for sanctification. It's important to understand while we are not Jesus, we are being made in his image every day and that guy is the same guy who commanded the elements of creation, walked silently to his unjust slaughter, and returns laying waste to those already condemned. Same guy; very diverse.

John 5:19
Therefore, Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 6:37-38
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me."

Matthew 6:10
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

It's amazing if we can pull it off but, at times, also very inconvenient , O Daughter of The Most High God .

 

[Carbon]

I was asked if I was sure, it was not robot theology. I am sure and I explained dhow it is not robot theology.

Scripture provides multiple explanations and means of sanctification. I quoted at least six of them so I am not sure why this question is being asked (it was answered before it was asked). For example, Hebrews 10 tells us we were sanctified by the offering of Christ's body. If that is a reference to Calvary then that sanctification occurred prior to any of us ever hearing the gospel, long before we were regenerated. Conversely, Paul told Timothy those who cleanse themselves from dishonorable things is useful to God.

Hmmm... let me make sure I have this correct. Am I to understand you to be saying regeneration does not contribute to a person's post-salvation sanctification? If so then I disagree because Jms. 4:8, 1 Tim. 4:4-5, and 2 Tim. 2:20-21 are not possible apart from regeneration and no unregenerate person does those things.

Not sure why I have to repeat this: the regenerate person is already saved.

I did not say the unregenerate person can or does contribute anything to his sanctification. I explicitly stated such a person CANNOT respond to God and nowhere does scripture ever report any dead-in-sin non-believer sanctifying himself. Regeneration is monergistic. Regeneration is saved by grace alone.

Which is what I said.

Which is what I said.

If that was not understood, then go back and re-read the posts.

Well then, if you agree the regenerate have no part in their sanctification, and it is monergistic, there is no argument, and we agree.

 

[Carbon]

No prob. you had said...
"Christ has done it. He did not set it up for us to work with him."
So I was wondering has he done all our sanctification, even so that we will all be rewarded the same?

Not sure what or why you would ask if we all will be rewarded the same. But, sanctification is monergistic.

 

[Carbon]

I also think it is monergistic until after conversion. After conversion then - as you posted - our nature is changed, and we become collaborators with the Spirit of God that is at work in us to do our Father's will. That Spirit inspires us, informs, empowers us, and guides us in a myriad of ways, including behaviors of our own that sanctify.

I'm not sure why you would mention the unregenerate (the natural man) having any part of sanctification.
After regeneration, not conversion, our nature is changed. It's simultaneous, but there is an ordo salutis.

And at this point, I believe you are wrong. we do not work with God in sanctification. The Spirit does build us up, teaches us, inspires us, etc... are we doing a work? Yes, but as we are built up, it is the fruit, not our obligation.

 

[Arial]

Apologetically speaking, the best apologetic is a life well lived. For that reason, Christian internet discussion forums are excellent places for sanctification. Since God often uses others in our lives every thread is an opportunity for sanctification. It's important to understand while we are not Jesus, we are being made in his image every day and that guy is the same guy who commanded the elements of creation, walked silently to his unjust slaughter, and returns laying waste to those already condemned. Same guy; very diverse.

I could address all of the post, and am tempted to, so deeply did it home and reveal the ways in which God is sanctifying me in the area of the tongue---how much He has already done---- ( I speak of one who is always thinking my thoughts in full sentences, even refining and focusing them, and I do this also with imaginary conversations with people I am disappointed or frustrated with or angry with. I find myself stopping the thoughts, throwing out the imagined conversation, with I will never say that to them as it would be very wrong, very offensive to God, and it is just as wrong to think them. Also---with I do not need to say everything I think)---but as you say it would change the topic.

But I did want to address this as I have found the forums a tremendous place of sanctification, where things about ourselves are revealed that otherwise may go completely unnoticed or we are completely unaware of, that do still reside in us but just have not had the opportunity to be exposed.

 

[Carbon]

2 Corinthians 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.


Here's what Calvin wrote about 2 Corinthians 7:1,

"These promises, therefore. God, it is true, anticipates us in his promises by his pure favor; but when he has, of his own accord, conferred upon us his favor, he immediately afterwards requires from us gratitude in return. Thus what he said to Abraham, I am thy God, (Genesis 17:7,) was an offer of his undeserved goodness, yet he at the same time added what he required from him -- Walk before me, and be thou perfect As, however, this second clause is not always expressed, Paul instructs us that in all the promises this condition is implied, that they must be incitements to us to promote the glory of God. For from what does he deduce an argument to stimulate us? It is from this, that God confers upon us such a distinguished honor. Such, then, is the nature of the promises, that they call us to sanctification, as if God had interposed by an implied agreement. We know, too, what the Scripture teaches in various passages in reference to the design of redemption, and the same thing must be viewed as applying to every token of his favor."​

​

"From all filthiness of flesh and spirit. Having already shown, that we are called to purity, he now adds, that it ought to be seen in the body, as well as in the soul; for that the term flesh is taken here to mean the body, and the term spirit to mean the soul, is manifest from this, that if the term spirit meant the grace of regeneration, Paul's statement in reference to the pollution of the spirit would be absurd. He would have us, therefore, pure from defilements, not merely inward, such as have God alone as their witness; but also outward, such as fall under the observation of men. 'Let us not merely have chaste consciences in the sight of God. We must also consecrate to him our whole body and all its members, that no impurity may be seen in any part of us.'"​

​

"Now if we consider what is the point that he handles, we shall readily perceive, that those act with excessive impudence, who excuse outward idolatry on I know not what pretexts. For as inward impiety, and superstition, of whatever kind, is a defilement of the spirit, what will they understand by defilement of the flesh, but an outward profession of impiety, whether it be pretended, or uttered from the heart? They boast of a pure conscience; that, indeed, is on false grounds, but granting them what they falsely boast of, they have only the half of what Paul requires from believers. Hence they have no ground to think, that they have given satisfaction to God by that half; for let a person show any appearance of idolatry at all, or any indication of it, or take part in wicked or superstitious rites, even though he were -- what he cannot be -- perfectly upright in his own mind, he would, nevertheless, not be exempt from the guilt of polluting his body."​

​

Perfecting holiness. As the verb epitelein in Greek sometimes means, to perfect, and sometimes to perform sacred rites, it is elegantly made use of here by Paul in the former signification, which is the more frequent one -- in such a way, however, as to allude to sanctification, of which he is now treating. For while it denotes perfection, it seems to have been intentionally transferred to sacred offices, because there ought to be nothing defective in the service of God, but everything complete. Hence, in order that you may sanctify yourself to God aright, you must dedicate both body and soul entirely to him.​

​

In the fear of God. For if the fear of God influences us, we will not be so much disposed to indulge ourselves, nor will there be a bursting forth of that audacity of wantonness, which showed itself among the Corinthians. For how does it happen, that many delight themselves so much in outward idolatry, and haughtily defend so gross a vice, unless it be, that they think that they mock God with impunity? If the fear of God had dominion over them, they would immediately, on the first moment, leave off all cavils, without requiring to be constrained to it by any disputations."​

So..... Calvin taught a person can sanctify himself after being regenerated, sanctified, saved by God by dedicating himself to God. Having been dedicated by God to God, he now dedicates himself to God.

Salvation is by faith alone according to Eph 2:8, and salvation includes deliverance from the pollution of sin as well as from it's guilt. Redemption has a wide stretch and converts the lost into a devoted child of God who glorify Him by walking in good works. And yes, scripture makes it clear that God's children have to play a part in promoting their own spiritual well-being.

It is true brother that scripture often uses words when speaking of sanctification which seems to intimate that man can and does work out his own salvation by cleansing himself of the defilement of sin. for example, {Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. 2 Cor 7:1.} But we must maintain that sanctification is of God alone. It is God and God alone who progressively removes the evil that dwells in a believer's heart and undermines its power. It's God and Him alone who fosters a believer's spiritual life and strengthens it so that it progressively controls his thoughts, feelings, words, and acts. It is God and Him alone who causes a believer to walk the road of obedience and to engage in good works. In short, it is God and God alone who conforms the souls of the believers to the image of Christ. So, it is God who saves man, and not man who saves himself or has a part in it.


Also, if you believe Calvin agrees with you, that sanctification is synergistic, you misunderstand him. If you insist, point out the book, chapter, and verse from the institutes and we can look at it. As I said, I'll say again: (It is true brother that scripture often uses words when speaking of sanctification which seems to intimate that man can and does work out his own salvation by cleansing himself of the defilement of sin.) Sanctification is monergistic and Calvin agrees.


I just don't know how a reformed believer can break up salvation and claim what parts of it are monergistic and what parts are synergistic.
I guess man just wants to have a part of the glory.

 

[Josheb]

Well then, if you agree the regenerate have no part in their sanctification, and it is monergistic, there is no argument, and we agree.

I would rephrase that to say God alone regenerates and the regenerated regenerate does nothing to contribute to his conversion and that includes the sanctifying work of God inherent in that saving conversion but after having received that purified and dedicated position in salvation God expects the one He monergistically saved to maintain that work in collaboration with His Spirit, and I believe I have provided sufficient scripture to demonstrate the validity of that position, as well as commentary from Calvin to evidence the consistency of that position with Calvinism (monergism).

I'm not sure why you would mention the unregenerate (the natural man) having any part of sanctification.

??????

I did not. In point of fact the words of mine that were quoted make absolutely no mention whatsoever of the unregenerate.

After regeneration, not conversion,

Regeneration is conversion.

Having been given new life is a conversion. Being brought from death to life is a conversion. Being born anew from above is a conversion. Having one's nature changed is a conversion. "After regeneration, not conversion," is a faulty statement.

...our nature is changed. It's simultaneous, but there is an ordo salutis.

Yep.

And it is best to remember and apply that within the context of our having been saved, being saved, and will be saved.

And at this point, I believe you are wrong.

Perhaps, but I read no evidence for that judgment.

...we do not work with God in sanctification.

Scripture proves otherwise..... after we are saved.

The Spirit does build us up, teaches us, inspires us, etc... are we doing a work? Yes, but as we are built up, it is the fruit, not our obligation.

You've just contradicted yourself and argued a false dichotomy (and possibly a straw man).

Contradiction = We do the work (edified, taught, inspired, and empowered by the Spirit, we do the work).

False dichotomy = built up, fruit, and obligation are not mutually exclusive conditions (and I don't believe I used the word "obligation." I used the words "expectation" and "obedience"). Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22). We do the work as fruit God bore in our lives.

Being filled with God's knowledge and spiritual wisdom and understanding, good fruit is brought forth when we walk worthy of the Lord.

Colossians 1:9-12
For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light.

And, just to clarify a potentially upcoming matter: there are only two options. A person is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness. There is no autonomous power in the former; it is bondage. In the latter that slavery is one of service and of adopted sonship, not bondage. If we are doing work, then that is a synergism. It is a post-monergism synergism, though, and not one that should be conflated or confused with salvific monergism because the regenerate is already saved.

For what are we saved?

Ephesians 2:4-10
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Good works are the purpose of our salvation, and we walk in them. We do the walking.





So, before judging my position incorrect, sort out the very real contradiction just posted because it's likely the impetus for misjudging what I've wrote and any misconstruing thereof.

 

[Carbon]

I would rephrase that to say God alone regenerates and the regenerated regenerate does nothing to contribute to his conversion and that includes the sanctifying work of God inherent in that saving conversion but after having received that purified and dedicated position in salvation God expects the one He monergistically saved to maintain that work in collaboration with His Spirit, and I believe I have provided sufficient scripture to demonstrate the validity of that position, as well as commentary from Calvin to evidence the consistency of that position with Calvinism (monergism).

God knows better than to expect us to maintain anything. Unless you agree with Wesley's perfectionism. And no brother, you did not provide sufficient scripture to validate your position.

 

[Josheb]

And at this point, I believe you are wrong. we do not work with God in sanctification. The Spirit does build us up, teaches us, inspires us, etc... are we doing a work? Yes, but as we are built up, it is the fruit, not our obligation.

Ephesians 2:10

Here's what Calvin wrote about that verse,

"For we are his work. By setting aside the contrary supposition, he proves his statement, that by grace we are saved, -- that we have no remaining works by which we can merit salvation; for all the good works which we possess are the fruit of regeneration. Hence it follows, that works themselves are a part of grace.

When he says, that "we are the work of God," this does not refer to ordinary creation, by which we are made men. We are declared to be new creatures, because, not by our own power, but by the Spirit of Christ, we have been formed to righteousness. This applies to none but believers. As the descendants of Adam, they were wicked and depraved; but by the grace of Christ, they are spiritually renewed, and become new men. Everything in us, therefore, that is good, is the supernatural gift of God. The context explains his meaning. We are his work, because we have been created, -- not in Adam, but in Christ Jesus, -- not to every kind of life, but to good works.

What remains now for free-will, if all the good works which proceed from us are acknowledged to have been the gifts of the Spirit of God? Let godly readers weigh carefully the apostle's words. He does not say that we are assisted by God. He does not say that the will is prepared, and is then left to run by its own strength. He does not say that the power of choosing aright is bestowed upon us, and that we are afterwards left to make our own choice. Such is the idle talk in which those persons who do their utmost to undervalue the grace of God are accustomed to indulge. But the apostle affirms that we are God's work, and that everything good in us is his creation; by which he means that the whole man is formed by his hand to be good. It is not the mere power of choosing aright, or some indescribable kind of preparation, or even assistance, but the right will itself, which is his workmanship; otherwise Paul's argument would have no force. He means to prove that man does not in any way procure salvation for himself, but obtains it as a free gift from God. The proof is, that man is nothing but by divine grace. Whoever, then, makes the very smallest claim for man, apart from the grace of God, allows him, to that extent, ability to procure salvation.

Created to good works. They err widely from Paul's intention, who torture this passage for the purpose of injuring the righteousness of faith. Ashamed to affirm in plain terms, and aware that they could gain nothing by affirming, that we are not justified by faith, they shelter themselves under this kind of subterfuge. 'We are justified by faith, because faith, by which we receive the grace of God, is the commencement of righteousness; but we are made righteous by regeneration, because, being renewed by the Spirit of God, we walk in good works.' In this manner they make faith the door by which we enter into righteousness, but imagine that we obtain it by our works, or, at least, they define righteousness to be that uprightness by which a man is formed anew to a holy life. I care not how old this error may be; but they err egregiously who endeavor to support it by this passage.

We must look to Paul's design. He intends to shew that we have brought nothing to God, by which he might be laid under obligations to us; and he shews that even the good works which we perform have come from God. Hence it follows, that we are nothing, except through the pure exercise of his kindness. Those men, on the other hand, infer that the half of our justification arises from works. But what has this to do with Paul's intention, or with the subject which he handles? It is one thing to inquire in what righteousness consists, and another thing to follow up the doctrine, that it is not from ourselves, by this argument, that we have no right to claim good works as our own, but have been formed by the Spirit of God, through the grace of Christ, to all that is good. When Paul lays down the cause of justification, he dwells chiefly on this point, that our consciences will never enjoy peace till they rely on the propitiation for sins. Nothing of this sort is even alluded to in the present instance. His whole object is to prove, that,

"by the grace of God, we are all that we are." (1 Corinthians 15:10)

Which God hath prepared Beware of applying this, as the Pelagians do, to the instruction of the law; as if Paul's meaning were, that God commands what is just, and lays down a proper rule of life. Instead of this, he follows up the doctrine which he had begun to illustrate, that salvation does not proceed from ourselves. He says, that, before we were born, the good works were prepared by God; meaning, that in our own strength we are not able to lead a holy life, but only so far as we are formed and adapted by the hand of God. Now, if the grace of God came before our performances, all ground of boasting has been taken away. Let us carefully observe the word prepared. On the simple ground of the order of events, Paul rests the proof that, with respect to good works, God owes us nothing. How so? Because they were drawn out of his treasures, in which they had long before been laid up; for whom he called, them he justifies and regenerates."​

Nothing I posted should be construed to say anything other than what is found in this commentary. Once God does His work in us, we then work by the inspiration and empowerment of His Spirit to do His will, and one of His objectives in us, for us, is our post-monergistic-sanctification collaborative sanctification. That is the fruit He bears in us: faithfulness. Having gifted us with faith, faith begets faithfulness by the fruit of the Spirit, and it is we do work, not just the Spirit.

 

[Josheb]

God knows better than to expect us to maintain anything.

Scripture proves otherwise.

Acts 24:16
In view of this, I also do my best to maintain always a blameless conscience both before God and before men.

1 Timothy 5:21
I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

Similar precepts are found in the OT.

Psalm 112:5
It is well with the man who is gracious and lends; He will maintain his cause in judgment.

Either the words of Paul are wrong, or the words, "God knows better than to expect us to maintain anything," are wrong. If those words from Paul were inspired by God and intended to be learned by both his original audiences and, by extension, the believer in every error then God does demonstrably expect us to maintain something.

Unless you agree with Wesley's perfectionism.

I do not and you know better than to suggest such a premise because you have read me argue against sinless perfectionism many times. In point of fact, my earlier comments about the post-regeneration wrongdoing of Ananias, Saphira, John Mark, Paul and Peter was intended to refute any implication of sinless perfection implied by what I received. Salvation does not make us perfect on this side of the grave. Only in resurrection are we made incorruptible and immortal.

And no brother, you did not provide sufficient scripture to validate your position.

Hmmm.... so now it is personal? Perhaps I should read that to say, "I have yet to read what I believe to be sufficient scripture to validate what I have read"?

Either way, the posts prove otherwise, and by ANY objective comparison I have posted scripture, posted more scripture, posted more scripture sampled from its entirety, and posted it as plainly read as possible than what I have received (which so far is overwhelmingly personal opinion absent much if any scripture). Additionally, I posted Calvin's own words to demonstrate an objective consistency with Calvin's positions. Calvin was quoted stating, " in order that you may sanctify yourself to God aright, you must dedicate both body and soul entirely to him." I haven't received anything remotely close to parity in any of these regards.

I've also pointed out multiple inconsistencies between plainly read scripture and claims made in the posts. The premise, "God knows better than to expect us to maintain anything," is one of them. Paul explicitly stated he expected the regenerate believer to maintain a blameless conscience and told Timothy to maintain the principles of overseeing God's people as an elder (presumably that included the sanctification of others he oversaw).


Boil it down to a single point if possible: what, exactly, is my specific error?

But please do not answer that question without also addressing the inconsistencies I have already noted.

• Faithfulness is a fruit of the Spirit.
• Scripture states, "let us cleanse ourselves."
• According to scripture and Calvin, we sanctify ourselves.
• We are created for good works in which we do the walking.
• According to Paul we maintain our own clear conscience.
• God bears fruit and we do the work accordingly.

There are other examples. Start with just those six.

 

[Josheb]

Well then, if you agree the regenerate have no part in their sanctification, and it is monergistic, there is no argument, and we agree.

And no brother, you did not provide sufficient scripture to validate your position.

Unh huh. .

How is that supposed to be read?